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[Injury] Karlsson achilles cut 70% in battle with Cooke, out 3-4 mo after surgery


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#211 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 02:00 PM



Watching this video, it looked like he gets knocked off balance trying to shove Karlsson but his leg looks like it comes up awkwardly to how he's moving.

Does it look intentional? Well it does and it doesn't. I couldn't say either way personally.

And that's all I have to say on this matter.

Don't take anything I say seriously! EVER!


#212 elvis15

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 02:15 PM

Come on now. You needn't be so hard on yourself!

Oooh, you got me there - good one! :rolleyes:

I thought we were talking about watching the Cooke play? Watching hockey has everything to so with this, Not if we "played hockey" or not. Also, I never suggested I'm "an expert" but I guess someone will put up suttons expert YT clip and fully derail this thread....Would you care to elaborate why I'm an expert? Or is that another thinly veiled attempt at a PA? Or do you want to try and stay on topic and maybe discuss the Cooke play and how it played out, not how we saw it and which qualifications help us watch hockey.

If you want to try and refute someone else's opinion (those including other posters here as well as hockey experts) and substitute yours as more relevant, then what insight you can bring to watching a hockey play absolutely plays a factor.

I have no idea what your hockey knowledge is, but I do know what the knowledge is of some of the experts I've seen comment on this, as well as my own experience, so I'm still willing to trust those over any 'evidence' you've been able to provide.

No he was enraged on the bench. Search out the video. He was stark raving after having been hit in the neck by a Sergei Gonchar point shot.. And your right, it's quite irrelevant in assessing his psychopathic traits, which, as the article points out, can be quite an advantage in life. This is just my personal feeling having followed his exploits through the years.

If you have evidence that supports your opinion, feel free to provide it. The hockey experts have already been mentioned in this thread with their take on it (not intentional) so you aren't going to convince anyone with just your personal feeling on Cooke's history without anything to support your side, and I'm not going to go look it up to help you.

Everyone's opinion is as valid as another's but not worth much to anyone else. Rupert and I (as well as others here) have formed our own opinion which happens to side with a fair number of hockey experts, so to try and say you're more correct is a losing battle without fleshing out your argument with expert opinion of your own or facts to show it was intentional.


I'm happy to debate it, but only if either of you can provide something to back up your opinion (and yes, the steps listed in describing a situation are also subjective so don't count as facts) otherwise you might as well be talking to yourselves.

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#213 elvis15

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 02:44 PM

Watching this video, it looked like he gets knocked off balance trying to shove Karlsson but his leg looks like it comes up awkwardly to how he's moving.

Does it look intentional? Well it does and it doesn't. I couldn't say either way personally.

And that's all I have to say on this matter.

Taking the safe route, are you? ::D

I tried to stay out of the did he/didn't he comments early on, but I really think he didn't intend to put his skate on the back of Karlsson's leg. I had less certainty before seeing just how often that type of hit is delivered, mind you, but it seems to be a common play that usually doesn't result in the player's skate coming down inside the heel guard of the other player's skate.

Right, is this where I'm supposed to prove something? I proved that logic dictates we accept the hypothesis with the least amount of assumptions. Is there more variables in the ("perfect storm" that takes place in a "freak accident" ) or Cooke reacting instinctually when an oppurtunity arises, just as he has in the past?

IMO 4 or five things, maybe more , would HAVE to play out for the "freak accident" to occur. It's also of MO that Cooke reacted instinctually, in a predatory and physically punishing fashion, just as he has in the past. He has been known to make the wrong split second decision before...

You do realize what IMO stands for right? Occams razor might be a good point, but your opinion of what steps it would take to create either situation isn't factual. It's your opinion unless you can back it up with something more as to why the 'perfect storm' is 4-5 steps and Cooke intentionally stepping on Karlsson's ankle is only 3.

If you want to call out other people's opinion as just sheep following the media, then be prepared to back it up. Your other options are to stop replying that your right or admit that someone else could be right (at least just as right as you think you are). Otherwise, you're relying on us giving up so you can think you've been proven right - which scientific method is that one?

Edited by elvis15, 18 February 2013 - 02:52 PM.

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#214 Justin6Schultz

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 02:51 PM

.

Edited by Justin6Schultz, 24 March 2013 - 06:02 AM.


#215 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:03 PM

Taking the safe route, are you? ::D


Yes. :P

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#216 derr12

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:53 AM

This whole thing is stupid. he was using his leg to help direct the body into the boards. I see it every damn day. This time it ended with a goofy ass skate cut on the play. crap happens. Some guy in my rec league got hauled out on an ambulance the other day due to a collision. The guy who did it may or may not have been a goon in his past, i don't know, shouldnt matter, play was accedental.

#217 Justin6Schultz

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:09 PM

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Edited by Justin6Schultz, 26 February 2013 - 06:21 PM.


#218 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:52 AM

I listed three very notable and "current hockey professionals" who I'm sure would agree with me. In this regard Cooke doesn't deserve to be in the game, and Cooke probably needs to go create an account at mindcheck.ca., before he kills someone.



Three "current hockey professionals"....all part of the Senators organization....

Meanwhile, every other "hockey professional" (and anyone else who knows anything about the game) thinks you're out to lunch.
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#219 Justin6Schultz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:53 AM

.

Edited by Justin6Schultz, 26 February 2013 - 06:21 PM.


#220 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:07 AM

Lol. I just ended Karlsson's season in NHL13. Apparently he's very quick, but also very brittle when you catch him.
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#221 Justin6Schultz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:15 AM

Lol. I just ended Karlsson's season in NHL13. Apparently he's very quick, but also very brittle when you catch him.

That's great! I mean its just a game right? I usually use position lock and play RD, anyways I never put Rome as LD and the first time I play him he literally runs the first opposing player and takes him out with a concusion. The irony when art imitates life, amirite?

#222 elvis15

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:45 AM

Three "current hockey professionals"....all part of the Senators organization....

Meanwhile, every other "hockey professional" (and anyone else who knows anything about the game) thinks you're out to lunch.

Yup, they aren't biased at all and would clearly be able to separate emotion from their reasoning. They certainly wouldn't have any reason to even suggest it in case it might influence any possible suspension, or because it is their Norris trophy, brand new expensive deal, star player.

Obviously it's everyone else that is biased against the Senators and Karlsson, or perhaps their man-love of Cooke that is forcing them to say things that aren't true. I mean, the must have doctored those other examples they showed that were the same type of play but didn't result in injury.

:rolleyes:

He's persistent if nothing else, right?

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#223 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:16 AM

Every player in the league is bias. They are either in direct competition with or a team-mate of either Cooke or Karlson, at one time or another. Their opinion doesn't matter.


Absolute garbage. You prove how little you understand with each and every post.

BTW: It's "biased". If you're going to attempt to look like you know what you're talking about, you should at least have the correct tense...
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#224 Justin6Schultz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:49 AM

.

Edited by Justin6Schultz, 26 February 2013 - 06:22 PM.


#225 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:39 PM

My oh my! You are really breaking out the fine tooth comb! Amirite?
EM, GMBM and EK have each reached the pinnacle of their chosen profession! I think we can all agree to reach the pinnacle of your chosen profession, you need to make the correct choice, more often than not. Which would mean one might need to "check your ego" at the door, more often than not!

BTW: feel free to clear up any other spelling and grammatical errors in any of my previous posts! It's always nice to have someone proof-read my posts!


I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your "pinnacle" rant, but it seems to be that you're saying the three members of the Senators organization are unbiased when it comes to this incident. Is that what you're claiming? Just one post after claiming that every player in the league was biased?

And not to worry. Proof reading of posts completely bereft of proof (or common sense) is a service that I provide, free of charge.

Edited by RUPERTKBD, 20 February 2013 - 12:40 PM.

Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#226 Salmonberries

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:19 PM

I think the league did a helluva job of controlling this potential pr disaster and setting opinion. There's barely any debate going on outside Ottawa about what looked to be a completely reckless and dangerous act by a notorious serial offender of the most ruthless and predatory kind. The role of the hired talking head "hockey experts" in this isn't to be overlooked. They're considered media 'opinion makers' for a reason, and their very curious uniformity of opinion on this matter has served to kill any meaningful debate on this issue.

Funny how that works eh.

#227 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:22 PM

I think the league did a helluva job of controlling this potential pr disaster and setting opinion. There's barely any debate going on outside Ottawa about what looked to be a completely reckless and dangerous act by a notorious serial offender of the most ruthless and predatory kind. The role of the hired talking head "hockey experts" in this isn't to be overlooked. They're considered media 'opinion makers' for a reason, and their very curious uniformity of opinion on this matter has served to kill any meaningful debate on this issue.

Funny how that works eh.


And the roles of the Canucks and Oilers players (and coaches) who shared the opinions of the "hired talking heads"....

...I suppose the diabolical NHL head office paid them off?

Edited by RUPERTKBD, 20 February 2013 - 03:23 PM.

Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#228 elvis15

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:28 PM

And the roles of the Canucks and Oilers players (and coaches) who shared the opinions of the "hired talking heads"....

...I suppose the diabolical NHL head office paid them off?

Because you know just how much the Canucks love the NHL...

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#229 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:33 PM

I also realize that trying to determine EM, GMBM and EK personal bias' is a very slippery slope, but I will say this ;

In times of passion do we not rely on what is true to each of us?! Do we not grasp for truth and reasoning?! Would shrewd business professionals such as EM & GMBM back a weak position if they felt they were so wrong?  Would  said shrewd professionals achieve their respective positons by being contrary for the very sake of being contrary?! Do we back our claims with truth when our backs are against the wall?! Or lies?!


I still can't really figure out what you're trying to say. You need to work on stating your case with some clarity.

The point is, what Melnyk and Murray said, was said out of anger and frustration. They had just lost their best player, shortly after losing their second best player. (unless you consider Anderson a better player than Spezza)

Their comments were understandable, considering the circumstances, but taking them at face value is as silly as taking what Cooke says as irrefutable. They are just not objective.

That being the case, the reasonable course of action would be to consider the opinions of other professionals and persons with extensive experience in the game who have no personal stake in the matter.

It behooves me to note BTW, that I don't like Matt Cooke. I was glad when the Canucks traded him and have always argued against posts that suggest re-acquiring him (those were especially plentiful right after the Pens won their last Cup) However, just because I don't like him, doesn't mean that I would assume him guilty of such a heinous act, especially considering the weight of evidence aginst it.
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#230 Salmonberries

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:07 PM

I still can't really figure out what you're trying to say. You need to work on stating your case with some clarity.

The point is, what Melnyk and Murray said, was said out of anger and frustration. They had just lost their best player, shortly after losing their second best player. (unless you consider Anderson a better player than Spezza)

Their comments were understandable, considering the circumstances, but taking them at face value is as silly as taking what Cooke says as irrefutable. They are just not objective.

That being the case, the reasonable course of action would be to consider the opinions of other professionals and persons with extensive experience in the game who have no personal stake in the matter.

It behooves me to note BTW, that I don't like Matt Cooke. I was glad when the Canucks traded him and have always argued against posts that suggest re-acquiring him (those were especially plentiful right after the Pens won their last Cup) However, just because I don't like him, doesn't mean that I would assume him guilty of such a heinous act, especially considering the weight of evidence aginst it.

Wait a minute. Evidence? What evidence?

#231 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:12 PM

Wait a minute. Evidence? What evidence?


The knowledge of those who, like myself, have been in that exact situation countless times and know what happens...
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#232 Justin6Schultz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:20 PM

The knowledge of those who, like myself, have been in that exact situation countless times and know what happens...

Wait are you saying you've chased another professional calibre athlete, such as Norris Trophy winner, Erik Karlson and knowingly and willfully engaged in a puck battle gone horribly wrong?! Well, please, I'll grant you enough time to elaborate :P

Edited by Justin6Schultz, 20 February 2013 - 04:21 PM.


#233 Salmonberries

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:22 PM

I've played minor hockey myself, albiet years ago. And I have been a steady, passionate fan of the Canucks and the game of hockey since the days of the old Lester Patrick Cup winning Canucks of Don Cherry, Phil Maloney and Andy Bathgate. I don't discount you're point of view here at all.

I just can't agree with it.

#234 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:25 PM

Wait are you saying you've chased another professional calibre athlete, such as Norris Trophy winner, Erik Karlson  and knowingly and willfully engaged in a puck battle gone horribly wrong?! Well, please, I'll grant you enough time to elaborate :P


What I'm saying is that I've played in roughly 2000 competitive hockey games in my lifetime, including a short stint in Junior.

The level of competition isn't as important as the situation. All it really means is that the incident occurs more quickly and with less reaction time for both players, which BTW, increases the likelihood of an unfortunate accident, rather than decreases it.
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#235 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:27 PM

I've played minor hockey  myself, albiet years ago. And I have been a steady, passionate fan of the Canucks and the game of hockey since the days of the old Lester Patrick Cup winning Canucks of Don Cherry, Phil Maloney and Andy Bathgate. I don't discount you're point of view here at all.

I just can't agree with it.


Fair enough. However, bear in mind that you also "can't agree" with Kevin Bieksa, Cory Schneider and Henrik Sedin....
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#236 elvis15

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:14 PM

What I'm saying is that I've played in roughly 2000 competitive hockey games in my lifetime, including a short stint in Junior.

The level of competition isn't as important as the situation. All it really means is that the incident occurs more quickly and with less reaction time for both players, which BTW, increases the likelihood of an unfortunate accident, rather than decreases it.

I never played at the junior level, but played a lot of minor hockey and felt bodychecking was one of the best parts of my game. I never considered coming into a hit along the boards with my leg up like that to help trap the player and keep them from getting loose. Having said that, I also never considered coming in with my hands and stick up when I was hitting another player, or another player was coming to hit me, yet that happens in many if not most hits in junior and professional hockey.

My point is, just because someone doesn't think that's the right way or a normal way to make a hit, very similar hits occur all the time (more than I realized). That alone isn't enough to consider guilt. Skate blades often come close to other players through normal hockey plays but don't result in injury.

Regardless of what went through Cooke's mind and what his intent was (to just hit Karlsson in a hockey play that is common in the NHL, or injure him with his skate), I see no proof that would conclusively tell us that was a dangerous or reckless play.

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#237 Salmonberries

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:20 PM

I'm curious as to the general consensus here on the Jannik Hansen /Marian Hossa incident. Hansen got one game, and sure enough, the 'hockey experts' are voicing their agreement with Shanahan's decision, opining that Hansen meant to injure Hossa.

Did not look intentional to me.

#238 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:25 PM

I never played at the junior level, but played a lot of minor hockey and felt bodychecking was one of the best parts of my game. I never considered coming into a hit along the boards with my leg up like that to help trap the player and keep them from getting loose. Having said that, I also never considered coming in with my hands and stick up when I was hitting another player, or another player was coming to hit me, yet that happens in many if not most hits in junior and professional hockey.

My point is, just because someone doesn't think that's the right way or a normal way to make a hit, very similar hits occur all the time (more than I realized). That alone isn't enough to consider guilt. Skate blades often come close to other players through normal hockey plays but don't result in injury.

Regardless of what went through Cooke's mind and what his intent was (to just hit Karlsson in a hockey play that is common in the NHL, or injure him with his skate), I see no proof that would conclusively tell us that was a dangerous or reckless play.


I think a useful example would be to consider the past actions of "superpests" or players that one would categorize as "dirty". I think of guys like Ken Linseman, Darius Kasparitis, Ulf Samuelsson, Chris Pronger, etc.

When these guys went out to hurt someone, they did so with sticks, knees, elbows and fists. Professional hockey players simply do not try and injure opposing players with skates. It doesn't even occur to them.

Since the earliest days of minor hockey, it is ingrained in players to never use the skate as a weapon. It's like a batter using a bat on a pitcher.

If Cooke truly meant to injure Karlsson, it's far, far more likely that he would push him face first into the boards. This is an infraction that occurs all the time in the NHL. Cuts from a skate are as rare as hen's teeth, and for good reason...
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#239 elvis15

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:41 PM

I'm curious as to the general consensus here on the Jannik Hansen /Marian Hossa incident. Hansen got one game, and sure enough, the 'hockey experts' are voicing their agreement with Shanahan's decision, opining that Hansen meant to injure Hossa.

Did not look intentional to me.

Nice try, trying to say all the hockey experts are saying Hansen meant to injure Hossa. I've heard Eddie Olcyzk say he would be surprised if Hansen wasn't suspended, but then Kerry Fraser said he would be surprised if he was suspended. I don't see even a reasonable portion of hockey experts saying Hansen meant to injure him.

If you have anything based on facts you'd like to present, feel free to share it, otherwise you can stop with the sensationalism and exaggeration to make it sound like you have some sort of case and our hockey experts mean nothing.

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#240 Justin6Schultz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:00 PM

1-3 games , Canuck fans will take it hard if Hansen is more severely punished than Keith. Because whatever Hansen did was not as severe or deliberate as Keiths elbow ; 1-3 games is actually pretty stiff for a short season. Hawks fan can't really expect blood( i suspect they're being contrary, for the sake of being contrary) after what Keith did to danny and sat for 5. Just my two cents .


Here's my post from the Hossa / Hansen thread

Edited by Justin6Schultz, 20 February 2013 - 09:01 PM.





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