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Trade Raymond while his value is up?


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#31 forklift_ole

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:04 AM

He's a UFA next season, and, as you say, has a history of not performing in the playoffs, plus he's still got that broken back hanging over him. He's worth, at best, a third round pick. He's worth far more than that producing on the team. Like you said, third in the team in points, that's nothing to scoff at.
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#32 ice orca

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:54 AM

He's 3rd on the team in points and this season he's playing very well. But will it translate in the playoffs? I don't think so. His game isn't suited for the playoffs and he'll get pushed around, pluis he could fetch a decent return straight up or packaged with Luongo. Some teams could use his skillset more than us. Not trying to be a downer, or a "hater", and I realize our team is doing well now. We can always improve.

Thats odd when we played Boston in the finals they said the player they actually feared was Raymond because his speed could turn their defence around and you are seeing it first hand now right now. This speed line he is on now will get better and will create matchup problems for a lot of teams and that makes our top six deadly when we get Booth and Kesler back. The speed on this team is insane.
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#33 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:15 AM

Or keep him while he is playing well.


This is the problem. No one thinks about the OP's comment. Look:

1. Raymond has come back stronger and better and I love the way he is playing. He can be a 25 goal scorer again in this league and is proving it. Keeps playing that way going forward he will no doubt.

2. He is small. As the OP said, in the playoffs his game will disappear, and given our size issues on the third line really need that line to get bigger for a run.

3. His value is at probably an all time high. Guy scores 25, back to back poor seasons, comes back from a terrible injury, showing a great deal of heart and mental toughness...and thus the reason many legitimately want to keep him, which I get.

4. But, market value, size, team needs, its about filling gaps. If the Lou deal can do it on its own, yes you keep him, good depth scoring, can move up and down 2/3 and has an element of speed most teams dont have. Not to mention his chemistry with Schroeder. BUT our goal is to win the cup.

5. If we can get a 20 goal, 3rd line center with grit back (positional trade). Other side needs speed and a second line winger, we need a gritty 3rd liner who can chip in, you make the deal. Won't hurt scoring depth that much, you add size, lose a bit of speed but so be it.

then your lines are more balanced and better ready for a cup run.

Sedin Sedin Kassian
Booth Kesler Schroeder (make him the playmaker on that line)
Higgins (Big Center) Burrows
Weise/Volpatti Manny/Lapierre Hansen

I sure like that line up, that third line becomes a line most teams would love as its second- its asset mgmt.

Again, if you can manage that with the Lou deal, he why bother, otherwise I think its a smart move.

Edited by BuretoMogilny, 14 February 2013 - 08:17 AM.

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#34 cc_devil

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:43 AM

Trade him! He has not and will not produce in the playoffs against playoff caliber teams as usual.

It's not like your going to trade Booth, Hansen, or Higgins over one trick pony Raymond.
Besides if Booth keeps struggling with Kesler. Booth goes on the third with Schroeder; someone who'd get him the puck.That line would still be just as fast without Raymond and have a better shooter for Schroeder. Higgins would go back to the second with Kesler.
I hope Kesler can go back to being a passer as well as a shooter but it might be better to have a shooter on the second and one on the third depth wise.

Edited by cc_devil, 14 February 2013 - 09:46 AM.

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#35 kloubek

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:54 AM

Funny... last season nobody thought we could get a bag of pucks for him, and now we think he has major trade value because he is having a good streak.

I like Raymond. Always have. But I've also always hated (HATED) his inability to stay on his skates when hit. He seems more and more to be able to avoid the hits lately by stopping on a dime and reversing direction, and I think that is part of the key to the fact he is doing better. In the regular season, I can see why he is an effective player.

However, come playoff time I think players like Raymond greatly reduce our toughness and difficulty to play against. I wouldn't mind seeing him traded - but even with his recent good play, the fact he is UFA at the end of the season does nothing at all for his trade value.
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#36 CanucksSayEh

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:56 AM

I remember lots of players gettin pushed around in the playoffs. Mason Raymond was not one of em.
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#37 icycold

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:58 AM

lol at all the Raymond lovers all of a sudden! Just a few months ago, you all were fed up with him, throwing him under the bus, making fun of his plays and making joke trade proposals with him and Ballard and now that he's playing well, you same people are like why would we trade one of our best player? LMAO you guys crack me up! I'll laugh if he does do well this season and we keep him like all you so called 'lovers' want and then next season he plays like crap again and you same people will be wanting his head again!


Nothing new under the sun there, you speak truth... Typical CDC as per usual, anyway i hope he does get packaged to a team that could use his skillset that doesn't need any toughness. The nucks on the other hand have a ton of skill but lack toughness so why keep him around? to this point it's been a depth thing obviously but when Kes and Booth are back i think we might see a big trade involving a few players... until then, since we're doing well MG seems content just to sit back and wait.
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#38 cool story bro

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:03 AM

Trade this "Canucks fan" while his trade value is up!

He's 3rd on the boards in trolls and this season he's trolling very well. But will it translate - to english - in the playoffs? I don't think so. His post isn't suited for the boards and he'll get pushed around, plus he could fetch a horrible return straight up or packaged with Luongo for something we could already get for just Luongo. Some trolls could use his skillset more than us. Trying to be a downer, and a "hater", but our team is doing well now. He can always improve.

Butter Bean, do we really want him?
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#39 5minutesinthebox

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:18 AM

Forget straight up but packaged with a roster player/prospect/pick or something. Fact is our forward core still needs some more size/toughness and Raymond has never put up good playoff numbers and I don't expect to change that all of a sudden. Last year he had little stretches where he played well like this too and he has trouble doing is consistently.


Last year he was coming off of a broken back where he had no training camp, and was obviously no where near 100% strength wise. Its amazing what some time to rehab will do to your game.

Raymond was arguably our best forward vs both LA and Boston not named Sedin. Getting pushed around because of his size was not an issue. Not everything appears on the scoresheet. Raymond is an excellent 2 way player, with world class speed, how will adding a big 'tough' forward help us? Are you expecting to find a big power forward with hands and that can skate with the likes of Kesler, Hansen, Burrows etc? And you are going to get him by trading Raymond? Good luck with that

Raymond is far more valuable to us than he is to anyone else, and on top of that he is playing well above his current pay scale.

I think this team is plenty tough as it stands. Kesler, Kassian, Burrows, Booth, Hansen, Bieksa, Ballard, Higgins, Lapierre, Volpatti... There is toughness and edge on every line.
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#40 Gollumpus

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:26 AM

Or maybe he's 27 and just reaching his prime.

For 2.3 million, why not keep him and take that gamble?

People don't give him enough credit for his skill and versatility.


I agree with what you have written. :)

That being said, with the new, lower salary cap, can the team afford to take the gamble? And with the competition for a spot (Sedin, Booth, Higgins, Volpatti, Jensen), if the team commits to Raymond, which of the other five guys won't be here next season?

I'm assuming Sedin will be here, and Volpatti has impressed on the 4th line, at a very cap friendly cost. He will also be a UFA at the end of the season. I don't see Raymond playing on the 4th line for various reasons: he's not a hitter like Volpatti and the team wants a physical 4th line, and he'd likely cost maybe three to four times as much as Volpatti, which isn't a great thing for a 4th liner. As I see it, Sedin and Volpatti have 2 out of the 4 LW spots taken (assuming the team can re-sign Volpatti).

Do the Canucks trade Booth? For cap reasons, this could be a good thing, but last season Booth showed signs he was returning to form and would be worth his $4+ million. If Booth were moved, then that would clear up a number of problems. Raymond could be moved to 2LW, Higgins could be re-signed as 3LW. Jensen could be left in Chicago for another year. And the Canucks save some cap space.

Or does the team trade/not re-sign Higgins at the end of the season? If he is kept, does he play on the 3rd or the 4th line? If he does get moved to the 4th line, what becomes of Volpatti? And for whatever amount they would sign Higgins, it would be too much to pay a 4th liner.

Or do they tell Jensen to find long term housing in Chicago?

regards,
G.
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#41 jono2009

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:31 AM

keep him
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#42 icycold

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:37 AM

Last year he was coming off of a broken back where he had no training camp, and was obviously no where near 100% strength wise. Its amazing what some time to rehab will do to your game.

Raymond was arguably our best forward vs both LA and Boston not named Sedin. Getting pushed around because of his size was not an issue. Not everything appears on the scoresheet. Raymond is an excellent 2 way player, with world class speed, how will adding a big 'tough' forward help us? Are you expecting to find a big power forward with hands and that can skate with the likes of Kesler, Hansen, Burrows etc? And you are going to get him by trading Raymond? Good luck with that

Raymond is far more valuable to us than he is to anyone else, and on top of that he is playing well above his current pay scale.

I think this team is plenty tough as it stands. Kesler, Kassian, Burrows, Booth, Hansen, Bieksa, Ballard, Higgins, Lapierre, Volpatti... There is toughness and edge on every line.


i'd say more like edge and some size but we don't have a intimidating guy like we used to and people forget that, that is what we need again.. who was that guy? Donald Brashear.. if we had another guy identical to him right now and a guy like a youger pronger on D... whoaaaaaaa just picture that for a second.. seriously... yes we have *some grit* i give you that but not like we truly need...

Edited by icycold, 14 February 2013 - 10:39 AM.

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#43 higgyfan

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:39 AM

I didn't notice Mason getting man-handled during the playoffs. He is having a statement season, not just due to contract issues, but more as a guy coming back from a possible career ending/changing injury. He much stronger on his skates and finally has a teammate that matches his game. Sometimes speed can be just as effective as size. It's nice to have a good balance of skills throughout the team.
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#44 Gollumpus

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:40 AM

If the Canucks can keep Raymond, I'm all for it. I just don't know that they can.

Raymond is far more valuable to us than he is to anyone else, and on top of that he is playing well above his current pay scale.


This is true. And at the end of the season he is a UFA. If he is re-signed, for how much would you re-sign him? Keep in mind the new, lower salary cap.

How many wingers do the Canucks have atm?

RW: Burrows, Kassian, Hansen, Weise
LW: Sedin, Booth, Higgins, Volpatti + Raymond (with Jensen maybe here next season)

And that's for right now. There's always the chance that a winger could come back here as part of the assumed goalie trade. So one or two of those LW'ers are likely not going to be here next year.

As I see it, it's not a question of liking or dis-liking a player. It is a question of numbers, as in how many of them there are, and how much money does the team have to fork out?


regards,
G.
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#45 sedated

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:41 AM

Good in regular season. Tanks in playoffs when intensity and defense come up. See how he does in the playoffs before you say "He had a good year!" because he's capable of a decent regular season. Problem is he turns into a scared shadow when physical play is amped up.
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#46 Gollumpus

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:45 AM

I didn't notice Mason getting man-handled during the playoffs. He is having a statement season, not just due to contract issues, but more as a guy coming back from a possible career ending/changing injury. He much stronger on his skates and finally has a teammate that matches his game. Sometimes speed can be just as effective as size. It's nice to have a good balance of skills throughout the team.


I completely agree with what you have written.

The questions that follow are:

1.) How much do you think the team should spend on Raymond, who is a UFA at the end of the year?

2.) The team has Sedin, Booth, Higgins, Volpatti and maybe Jensen in addition to Raymond. Which of these guys isn't here next season to make room for Raymond?

It's going to be a tough choice for Gillis.


regards,
G.
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#47 VicNuckleHead09

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:10 AM

Luongo + Raymond for Rome
Kesler + Burrows + Booth for Rome
Daniel + Henrik for Rome
Hansen + Higgins for Rome
Lapierre + Volpatti + Malhotra + Weise for Rome
Shroeder + Kassian for Rome

Bieksa + Hamhuis for Rome
Edler + Garrison for Rome
Ballard + Tanev for Rome

This is what our lineup should look like going into the playoffs:

Rome-Rome-Rome
Rome-Rome-Rome
Rome-Rome-Rome
Rome-Rome-Rome

Rome-Rome
Rome-Rome
Rome-Rome

Rome
Rome

Healthy Scratches: Rome, Rome, and Andrew Ebbet


This made me laugh so hard
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#48 VicNuckleHead09

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:15 AM

This is the problem. No one thinks about the OP's comment. Look:

1. Raymond has come back stronger and better and I love the way he is playing. He can be a 25 goal scorer again in this league and is proving it. Keeps playing that way going forward he will no doubt.

2. He is small. As the OP said, in the playoffs his game will disappear, and given our size issues on the third line really need that line to get bigger for a run.

3. His value is at probably an all time high. Guy scores 25, back to back poor seasons, comes back from a terrible injury, showing a great deal of heart and mental toughness...and thus the reason many legitimately want to keep him, which I get.

4. But, market value, size, team needs, its about filling gaps. If the Lou deal can do it on its own, yes you keep him, good depth scoring, can move up and down 2/3 and has an element of speed most teams dont have. Not to mention his chemistry with Schroeder. BUT our goal is to win the cup.

5. If we can get a 20 goal, 3rd line center with grit back (positional trade). Other side needs speed and a second line winger, we need a gritty 3rd liner who can chip in, you make the deal. Won't hurt scoring depth that much, you add size, lose a bit of speed but so be it.

then your lines are more balanced and better ready for a cup run.

Sedin Sedin Kassian
Booth Kesler Schroeder (make him the playmaker on that line)
Higgins (Big Center) Burrows
Weise/Volpatti Manny/Lapierre Hansen

I sure like that line up, that third line becomes a line most teams would love as its second- its asset mgmt.

Again, if you can manage that with the Lou deal, he why bother, otherwise I think its a smart move.


If this is the key why not sign Arnott and put him on the 3rd... seriously.
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#49 TheCammer

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:41 AM

This is the problem. No one thinks about the OP's comment. Look:

1. Raymond has come back stronger and better and I love the way he is playing. He can be a 25 goal scorer again in this league and is proving it. Keeps playing that way going forward he will no doubt.

2. He is small. As the OP said, in the playoffs his game will disappear, and given our size issues on the third line really need that line to get bigger for a run.

3. His value is at probably an all time high. Guy scores 25, back to back poor seasons, comes back from a terrible injury, showing a great deal of heart and mental toughness...and thus the reason many legitimately want to keep him, which I get.

4. But, market value, size, team needs, its about filling gaps. If the Lou deal can do it on its own, yes you keep him, good depth scoring, can move up and down 2/3 and has an element of speed most teams dont have. Not to mention his chemistry with Schroeder. BUT our goal is to win the cup.

5. If we can get a 20 goal, 3rd line center with grit back (positional trade). Other side needs speed and a second line winger, we need a gritty 3rd liner who can chip in, you make the deal. Won't hurt scoring depth that much, you add size, lose a bit of speed but so be it.

then your lines are more balanced and better ready for a cup run.

Sedin Sedin Kassian
Booth Kesler Schroeder (make him the playmaker on that line)
Higgins (Big Center) Burrows
Weise/Volpatti Manny/Lapierre Hansen

I sure like that line up, that third line becomes a line most teams would love as its second- its asset mgmt.

Again, if you can manage that with the Lou deal, he why bother, otherwise I think its a smart move.

Who does Big Center play for????
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#50 CanucksSayEh

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:45 AM

Who does Big Center play for????


Sounds like a discount electronics or furniture store.
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#51 Bure fan

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 12:10 PM

Gillis should trade Kassian too while his value is high.

Both Sedins haven't been quite up to their usual standards, we should trade them before their value goes down.

Booth was expected to play better this season, now that he's more comfortable with the team, but then maybe he wont. We should trade him in-case he ends up struggling out of the gate.

Kesler is almost ready to go, but what if he gets re-injured. We should trade him before that has a chance to happen.

Schneider and Luongo are both playing very well, we should trade them both while their value is highest.

Bieksa has 3 goals in 4 games, a pace that wont last. We should trade him while he's scoring as many goals as Ovechkin.

Jensen is our top prospect not in the NHL, so we should trade him in-case he doesn't play well in the NHL.

Hansen's been hot lately, we should trade him ASAP.

Schroeder's only getting 3rd line minutes, we should trade him soon before AV puts him on the 4th line.


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#10 Pavel Bure #96


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#52 5minutesinthebox

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:30 PM

i'd say more like edge and some size but we don't have a intimidating guy like we used to and people forget that, that is what we need again.. who was that guy? Donald Brashear.. if we had another guy identical to him right now and a guy like a youger pronger on D... whoaaaaaaa just picture that for a second.. seriously... yes we have *some grit* i give you that but not like we truly need...


Well then, we are looking at 2 different things, and ridding the team of Raymond makes no sense if all you are bringing back is intimidation. Intimidation often comes at a cost..see Carcillo, Scott, Neil, Konopka, Eager, these guys are known for losing their teams games, and cant be trusted to be on the ice when the game is on the line.
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#53 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:52 PM

I would just keep him unless it is necessary to throw him into a trade to acquire something Gillis believes we need more than anything. I was a critic of Raymond but he's worked hard and has redeemed himself. I'm all for Raymond and cheering him on. I'm just hoping the days of his double digit game pointless streaks are gone.

If this were an 82 game season, he'd be on pace for 55 points which is slightly better than his best season.

Edited by Tortorella's Rant, 14 February 2013 - 01:53 PM.

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#54 H.Sedin 33

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 02:25 PM

Why not keep raymond while his value is high? Raymond is a great player and on the speedy line with hansen, it benefits Jordan.s alot. Raymond, is great, but who are you gonna get in return? Draft pick?
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#55 Alexander 7he Great

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 02:28 PM

I think your comment is compleatly uncalled for. Butter bean or whatever his name was was just stating his opinion, that is what a forum is all about. People like you have nothing insightful to say and shouldn't post. Why don't you go to the park and push a little kid off his bike.


And he's just stating his opinion which he's rightfully allowed to do, you mad brah? Don't get so defensive.

Edited by Alexander 7he Great, 14 February 2013 - 02:29 PM.

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#56 Kesler's Nose

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 02:44 PM

Question is what can we get for him straight up? That would be the preferred trade to make, packaging him will just be like throwing away his contract. Only way that works out is if we get a player like Versteeg for him, then I'm all in. lol But he's been playing really good right now anyways, so it's definitely not a loss if we "have" keep him. :rolleyes:
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#57 Monteeun

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:33 PM

And he's just stating his opinion which he's rightfully allowed to do, you mad brah? Don't get so defensive.


That is uncalled for. U mad brah?
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BAD MOVE!!!

BAD FING MOVE

HAHAHA ANOTHER INJURED MORON ON OUR TEAM

HE WILL JOIN US IN 2019

Benning will be fired next year. Hope he enjoys screwing around for a few months. I just cant believe this. Another injured BC player. We just got rid of garrison. Seems like the canucks and linden just wanted any BC born player. Doesn't matter if hes good or not. We don't need another Linden to get us to game 7 of the Stanley cup and lose. We need someone to win us a cup.

5 million a year for Vrbata? 6 million for Miller? Kesler for Bonino and 24th instead of 10th pick or one of their top prospects? Garrison for scraps?

ive already lost faith in JB. Ive never EVER had this bad of a feeling about management.

 


#58 cc_devil

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:08 PM

He'll be disappearing soon as the NHL is starting shape up after no training camp.
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#59 afan

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:14 PM

Raymond is playing much better this year and he even has the guts to go to the crease. All teams which had won the Cup had at least 3 or even 4 scoring lines. Keep Raymond and the Schroeder, Hansen line intact and the Canucks will have at least 3 scoring lines when Kesler is back. And when Booth is back in the lineup, the Canucks will have 4 scoring lines because Lapiierre and whoever is dropped to that line can also score. Keep the present roster and let the guys have a healthy fight for playing time and the Canucks will again be a force in the playoffs.
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#60 DooBie604

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:17 PM

So essentially what I'm hearing on these boards is...

Past: Raymond sucks...trade him!
Present: Raymond is good...trade him!
Future: Raymond will choke in playoffs...trade him!
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