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#31 Florence

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 04:02 PM

He is only 23, but this is already his fifth season in the NHL.

Philly was second in the league in goals scored last year, and Voracek scored only 18 of them.


His 3 years aged 18-21 as a Blue Jacket should be noted. Reality is no team is as good as the Blue Jackets at ruining prospects.

Q: Since entering the NHL in 2000 how many players drafted by the CBJ's have played in at least 1 all star game?
A: 1 Player. (Rick Nash)

Q: Since entering the NHL in 2000 how many top 10 picks have the CBJ had?
A: 11 Picks.

They really have a joke of a farm system and Voracek's growth was likely stunted coming out of an organization that has had 0.009% of there drafted players go on to be all stars.

It can also be noted that in his last 29 games (11 playoff) he has 28 points averaging only 16:05 minutes of ice this season and 15:58 minutes in last years playoffs. It should also be noted that all 18 of his goals were even strength only Hartnell (21) and Giroux (22) had more on the team.

Though you were somewhat correct, Voracek is a playmaker not a sniper so his goal totals haven't been and probably never will be team leading numbers. His strength is having a big body but tremendous speed and puck control. You really have to watch him play throughout the games though. Though his final goal against the Penguins was ugly that whole opperunity happened because he just dangled his way into the Penguins zone, something he does regularly. Last season though his numberous weren't scary he became a very dangerous looking player with how he was able to generate scoring oppertunities, he just needed work on finishing.

IMO just as someone who sees him play often this isn't a flukey streak, even if he doesn't maintain a PPG pace he looks to be getting better and has ever since he joined the Flyers. Luongo is still better then Jake but Jake's value is on the rise and his potential only adds to his value where as Luongo's contract still burdens his value.
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#32 allkill326

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 04:18 PM

His 3 years aged 18-21 as a Blue Jacket should be noted. Reality is no team is as good as the Blue Jackets at ruining prospects.

Q: Since entering the NHL in 2000 how many players drafted by the CBJ's have played in at least 1 all star game?
A: 1 Player. (Rick Nash)

Q: Since entering the NHL in 2000 how many top 10 picks have the CBJ had?
A: 11 Picks.

They really have a joke of a farm system and Voracek's growth was likely stunted coming out of an organization that has had 0.009% of there drafted players go on to be all stars.

It can also be noted that in his last 29 games (11 playoff) he has 28 points averaging only 16:05 minutes of ice this season and 15:58 minutes in last years playoffs. It should also be noted that all 18 of his goals were even strength only Hartnell (21) and Giroux (22) had more on the team.

Though you were somewhat correct, Voracek is a playmaker not a sniper so his goal totals haven't been and probably never will be team leading numbers. His strength is having a big body but tremendous speed and puck control. You really have to watch him play throughout the games though. Though his final goal against the Penguins was ugly that whole opperunity happened because he just dangled his way into the Penguins zone, something he does regularly. Last season though his numberous weren't scary he became a very dangerous looking player with how he was able to generate scoring oppertunities, he just needed work on finishing.

IMO just as someone who sees him play often this isn't a flukey streak, even if he doesn't maintain a PPG pace he looks to be getting better and has ever since he joined the Flyers. Luongo is still better then Jake but Jake's value is on the rise and his potential only adds to his value where as Luongo's contract still burdens his value.


We'd rather go for 3rd or 4th line wingers, picks, and prospects to increase our future depth, rather than go all-in for a 80% certain forward. Do you seriously think Voracek could be the panacea for our ailing defense, goaltending controversy, and developing chemistry?
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#33 Florence

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 04:35 PM

We'd rather go for 3rd or 4th line wingers, picks, and prospects to increase our future depth, rather than go all-in for a 80% certain forward. Do you seriously think Voracek could be the panacea for our ailing defense, goaltending controversy, and developing chemistry?


I apologize for the mix up I did not mean to imply I like this trade. I was mainly defending Voracek as the poster I was responding to was downgrading his value because he has been in the NHL 5 seasons and he only scored 18 goals last year. I was more so just implying that value wise it isn't so farfetched a proposal.

Voracek wouldn't fix all of the issues in Vancouver but I do think he could help with some. Obvious in this deal the goalie contraversey would end (though I don't see Philadelphia touching Luongo's contract unless they can move Bryz). He may also help with chemisty, it's hard to say if it would work as it's all hypothetical but he is a natural playmaker and his speed and dangles draw attention as he can push into the opposing teams zone often easily. Philadelphia has not isolated him to any specific teammates ether, he gets moved around and seems to adapt well. I always thought a player like him would work well with Kesler personally.

If I was Vancouver and Voracek was an option for a return player I would still explore my other options but it would be a deal I gave realistic consideration. On the flip side moving Luongo for multiple bottom 6 wingers and draft picks doesn't guarentee chemisty ether, it could be just as disruptive with multiple new personalities coming onto the team and pushing multiple personalities out of the locker room. It's hard to predict those things.
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#34 Mookie Wilson

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:20 AM

You make it sound as if we're going to get a player with multiple major trophy nominations and really insane stats.


We should get either one dude with ridiculous stats, i.e. a star like Luongo, or multiple pieces with upside, such as Voracek plus a pick and prospect.
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#35 allkill326

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:23 AM

I apologize for the mix up I did not mean to imply I like this trade. I was mainly defending Voracek as the poster I was responding to was downgrading his value because he has been in the NHL 5 seasons and he only scored 18 goals last year. I was more so just implying that value wise it isn't so farfetched a proposal.

Voracek wouldn't fix all of the issues in Vancouver but I do think he could help with some. Obvious in this deal the goalie contraversey would end (though I don't see Philadelphia touching Luongo's contract unless they can move Bryz). He may also help with chemisty, it's hard to say if it would work as it's all hypothetical but he is a natural playmaker and his speed and dangles draw attention as he can push into the opposing teams zone often easily. Philadelphia has not isolated him to any specific teammates ether, he gets moved around and seems to adapt well. I always thought a player like him would work well with Kesler personally.

If I was Vancouver and Voracek was an option for a return player I would still explore my other options but it would be a deal I gave realistic consideration. On the flip side moving Luongo for multiple bottom 6 wingers and draft picks doesn't guarentee chemisty ether, it could be just as disruptive with multiple new personalities coming onto the team and pushing multiple personalities out of the locker room. It's hard to predict those things.


It certainly does more than just Voracek.
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#36 Spoosh

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 04:42 AM

Wow, I really tried to look into topics here and find a post to reply to or make a statement. But this really is the place where idiots collide. Please don't let me distract you all from arguing insanely about nothing at all.
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#37 Mookie Wilson

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 08:05 AM

Wow, I really tried to look into topics here and find a post to reply to or make a statement. But this really is the place where idiots collide. Please don't let me distract you all from arguing insanely about nothing at all.


You seem like a nice guy.
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#38 Spoosh

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:40 AM

You seem like a nice guy.


:)

To smoothen my previous statement; I have come here to the proposals & arm-wrestling area in hope of joining discussions on proposals numerous times. But every time I collect myself and come here to find stuff I always seem to find argument about absurd proposals and people insulting each other and measure d*cks & IQ. It would be nice to have a good discussion/debate over something for once, even if it is a proposal filled with some hope for a miracle. And without exaggerated aggression that is.
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#39 Mookie Wilson

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:49 AM

:)

To smoothen my previous statement; I have come here to the proposals & arm-wrestling area in hope of joining discussions on proposals numerous times. But every time I collect myself and come here to find stuff I always seem to find argument about absurd proposals and people insulting each other and measure d*cks & IQ. It would be nice to have a good discussion/debate over something for once, even if it is a proposal filled with some hope for a miracle. And without exaggerated aggression that is.


I hear where you're coming from, but I'm into the d*ck measuring, myself.

Kesler and Luongo for Giroux and Coburn.
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#40 Spoosh

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 10:04 AM

Kesler and Luongo for Giroux and Coburn.


How about Giroux and Couturier rather than Coburn. Maybe it's just me, but I have a feeling Coburn wouldn't add too much to what we already have. His stats have gone down a bit every year and this year he's had a bit more trouble in his own end too. Maybe it's the terrible defense there overall, but I'd pass on him. For those two I'd easily give up Kesler and Luongo (or Schneider), but what they need is D. So maybe he trade would need a d-man to work? And as Philly and Vancouver are both right up against the cap, we'd need to match salaries almost $ for $ to make any trade with them work.
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#41 Florence

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:02 AM

It certainly does more than just Voracek.


When it comes to talent value right in the moment and nothing else I would agree with you, however you are overlooking numerous variables that can bring down or up the value of players. Luongo is not above these variables.

Age
- Luongo is 33 years old now and may even be 34 years old by the time he is traded (if he is traded in the offseason). In other words he is reaching the common age of talent decline and the only teams that will be interested in him are teams that are trying to make hard playoff cup runs this year and next. No rebuilders or project teams.

Contract
- Luongo is signed at a 5.3 cap hit until his 43 years old. This was a contract many teams would never give to begin with and can easily turn into a major headache in the not to distant future. Even buying him out would be an ugly situation.

Only 1 Goalie Plays
- Even if Luongo is better than other goalies talent wise many teams who are comfortable with the current starter will not show much interest in Luongo simply because they will not be willing to pay much on what they consider a slight upgrade. At the expense of a signifgcant downgrade elsewhere on the team.

Other Options
- Luongo will not be the only goalie available. It's common for lesser talented upgrades to be placed on the market for signifcantly reduced prices prompting teams to drop out of the bidding war and just get someone else.

Buyers and Sellers
- Most trades involve buyers and sellers but Luongo would only go to a buyer however the Canucks will also be buyers. It is highly unlikely that any offer will include players who have a big role on the current NHL roster of the team trading for him. They will likely want to move picks and/or prospects.

NTC
- Luongo could just say no to any destination.

Reduced Market
- Most big trades are fueled by a bidding war. With Luongo you take out the sellers, teams with good goalies, teams that want to avoid the contract, etc. Not to many teams to drive up the price.


As for Voracek I just simply feel you are not looking at him as of the current date. He has played 20 games and has 22 points. 32 points in his last 31 games. Only 23 years old showing vast improvement over his 1 and a half years in Philly. He leads Philadelphia in goals, assists, points, and game winning goals and he is signed for 4 more years at only 4.25 million. If Jake was traded his value would be high. Just realistically why would any sane team traded a 23 year old who is outplaying his contract leading the team in numerous stats and over a PPG so cheaply?
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