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Did Kesler Upset the Balance (Team Chemistry)? We Win without him!


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#31 disisdayear

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:09 PM

Here's my take on things...

Without Kes in the lineup, we played a more responsible defensive game. With Kes in the lineup, and now Booth, it looks like we are thinking offense-first. This isn't really a bad thing, as it makes for exciting hockey (I think we would all agree the first period tonight was pretty damn entertaining), but doesn't result in our desired outcome, which are wins.

Since Kes's return, the defense seem to be making bad decisions at the other team's blue line (i.e., glaringly bad pinches); and forwards are fumbling the puck in our zone near our blueline without getting the puck out because they're trying to make a pretty pass out of the zone.

As well, with Kes back in the lineup, other than the Sedins, Burrows, and Higgins, it seems like everyone else has decided to take a mental holiday (or to put it in another way, have had a collective let down in intensity of play).

Edler's play continues to deteriorate (in spite of his goal tonight)...he just doesn't look right to me (and it's more than the right side he is playing), so having him on the ice as much as he is doesn't help the cause at this time.

Lastly, I think AV has a lot to do with the three game skid we're on, with mixing up the lines trying to accommodate Kes's return.

I'm sure playing better teams in Dallas, St. Louis, and Chicago has something to do with our mini-slump, but I'm of the opinion that as we crank up our defensive intensity, we will see a return to winning ways.

The one thing I liked about tonight's game was that we showed veteran confidence in being able to come back against a really good Hawks team to at least gain a point (yah, I know, that's a small consolation prize, but it's still a point in the standings).

Edited by disisdayear, 19 February 2013 - 11:14 PM.

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#32 Nino

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:33 PM

Welllll he's got another point tonight, and I know since he's been in the line-up we've looked shaky but...

I think it has more to do with AV. If AV played his cards right, the lines that were clicking (The speed line) would have been left unchanged, but he didn't and all of our forwards have had different line-mates literally every other shift making it very difficult for timing, and chemistry to develope.

So it's AV's fault, not Kesler's


Second this...
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#33 Gran Turismo

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:37 PM

Is it a coincidence that the twins started producing more once Kes returned?
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#34 RyanKeslord17

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:57 PM

I knew this was gonna come up LOL
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#35 Skate or Don't

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:13 AM

i think its a fair question. the team was rolling without him. if there was any 'mistake' i'd say it was slotting him right back into the second line instead of starting him on the third for a game or two. i'll admit i'm a little biased though as i find his arrogance really annoying. i think he thinks he's a superstar with great hands. he's gotten away from what brought him success in the first place. i'd say a good example would be burrows. he's one of the smartest/most talented players on the team and he's had a lot of success the past few seasons yet he seems like the same old burrows that worked his way up all those years. maybe its an american vs canadian thing :rolleyes:
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#36 Robongo

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:15 AM

no I said before that we'll really get a sense of this team after March just because of the schedule.
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#37 DeNiro

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:18 AM

Kesler is still 13 games behind everyone else don't forget. It was nice for him to get a couple points, but I expect he'll hit a wall for a little bit here, until he gets up to game speed.

Knowing the competitor he is, it shouldn't take as long as the average player.
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#38 Gillyfluffball

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:23 AM

It seems like whoever plays with him focuses too much on setting him up.


I am probably the biggest Kesler fan in the world, I seriously love the guy, think he's the heart and soul of this team but with that said I agree with you 100%. I noticed this especially with Kassian the moment he started playing with Kesler the less secure he seems out there. I am not dissing either Kass or Kess I love them both but I do think AV needs to do something to improve Kass's confidence and to make him a more suitable line mate for Kesler. So really I guess I blame AV.

Edited by Gillyfluffball, 20 February 2013 - 12:23 AM.

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#39 pwnstar

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:49 AM

We also stopped playing NW teams...


Very true.
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#40 DeNiro

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:56 AM

We've also played Pacific division teams 5 times. We've always struggled against this division.

If we were playing Eastern teams like normal, our record would be even better considering we have played very well against the East in the past.

The other teams we've played in the central division we're 1-0-2 against. Not great, but it's taking shootouts for those teams to beat us.
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#41 Phil_314

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:06 AM

He's been alright since he's been back. I'm also glad that A.V. didn't just plug Booth back with him and Higgins.

Moreover, I don't see how it can be justified that someone of his caliber could be left out of the Top 6 when he's 100% healthy. Sure he's definitely shoot first but his intensity and offensive skills are, in the end, what makes him valuable. I'd love to pair him with more complementary players, as in some combination of Kassian, Hansen, Burrows and Higgins. (Note I didn't mention Booth because in the end I don't think those two click, seeing how both are shoot-first).

The argument of him messing up the previous dynamic is also unproven IMO, since in the end Schroeder's increased ice-time was only available due to Kes' absence. It's only natural that he gave it back after Ryan returned (and the team's "slump" would've happened against stronger, non-Northwest Division opponents anyways).

Basically the team's center depth should be (against less physical teams): Hank- Kesler - Schroeder - Lapierre

whereas against more physical teams I'd go:
Dan - Hank - Kassian
Ray- Kes - Schroeder (protect Schroeder and Ray; I'm in the Keep-Jordan-from-playoff-3rd-line-duties camp)
Burr - Higgins - Booth (Burr and Higgins play center, plus this line would be physical and good off the rush)
Weise - Lapierre - Hansen

Edited by g@m3b0i, 20 February 2013 - 01:13 AM.

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#42 Kevin Biestra

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:12 AM

A lot more likely the chemistry suffers from losing Manny than from gaining Kesler.
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#43 DeNiro

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:43 AM

A lot more likely the chemistry suffers from losing Manny than from gaining Kesler.


Yep, he was an important leader on this team. And was a big part of our defensive game (winning faceoffs).

Gillis is going to need to pick up a depth player like him at the deadline. Every top team has a faceoff specialist, and we just lost ours.

Suddenly Bozak and Kadri isn't looking like that bad of a deal.
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#44 Kesler's Nose

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:44 AM

Chicago game was a breaking point, if we do good and get revenge against Dallas we'll be back on track. Just have to have patience.. I'm really looking forward to seeing a Booth, Kesler, Kassian line- bunch of big bodies. They just need to develop some chemistry and make plays, not all charge forward and shoot like morons. <_< And for god sake.... Stop with the across the crease passes, you guys are no good at them! lol Let's see the good 'ol "X" formation.

Edited by Kesler's Nose, 20 February 2013 - 01:48 AM.

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#45 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:12 AM

He is no where near his top form yet. Give him time


Really? He's already playing well IMO, so if he still has more to give, then people who want to move him are insane.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO FIGURE OUT?


Because our coach is Alain Vigneault.
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#46 Sugar baby watermelon

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:18 AM

Welllll he's got another point tonight, and I know since he's been in the line-up we've looked shaky but...

I think it has more to do with AV. If AV played his cards right, the lines that were clicking (The speed line) would have been left unchanged, but he didn't and all of our forwards have had different line-mates literally every other shift making it very difficult for timing, and chemistry to develope.

So it's AV's fault, not Kesler's


You took the words right out of my brain... AV is at fault here
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#47 tas

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:11 AM

kesler will always, inherently, upset chemistry because he is the oil to other players' water.

the way he plays now makes it impossible for anybody to jel with him.
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#48 wendythirteenthrashers

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:45 AM

Kesler has to learn how to play with others period..... I feel the puck hog is on its way back..... Only burrows seems to work well with him...
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#49 tas

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:53 AM

Kesler has to learn how to play with others period..... I feel the puck hog is on its way back..... Only burrows seems to work well with him...


the chemistry between burrows and kesler has been greatly overstated. when they were a shutdown line without offensive responsibilities they worked well together, but in recent years when they've been put back together to shake things up, that chemistry is no longer there.

the reason for that is kesler has offensive zone tunnel vision. he doesn't know how to create plays with others because he completely lacks offensive awareness and natural offensive talents. he's the best 3rd line center in the league, but he can't be relied upon to anchor a consistently productive scoring line.
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#50 wendythirteenthrashers

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:00 AM

Maybe we can call bieksa up to be a forward with kes since he's always wandering around below the offensive goal line.... Hahaha... I was impressed that booth graciously played 4th line coming back in without a rockstar attitude....
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#51 Bananas

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:10 AM

Kesler disrupted the second line, which was nothing short of patchwork anyways. Sedins are still with Burrows, and Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen is still in tact. That is all that really matters.

The fact is, we played against play-off bound teams, and they exposed our system for what it really is. Broken.
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#52 canucksnihilist

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:10 AM

He didn't upset team chemistry. He changed it.

The team doesn't think they need to play defense first, caution first. They are pushing more. Funny how it coincides with the Sedins starting to produce like their old selves.

This will be hard on a new defenseman (Garrison) who is now having to learn a new system (the Canucks "old" system, where they play up-tempo and fast instead of tight and cautious) on the fly.

So... I would rather see them play like they did against Chicago last night than like it was the first game. Even though they were being out-classed ;) At least they were opening it up a bit - and they have great speed so they should be able to excel at that style (they've done it before with virtually the same line-up - more youth in this line-up too, which makes it a bit of a learning curve again).

So: Kesler gives them the confidence to play like themselves, they have relaxed a bit. Without Schneider the score is 6-3 (might even have been 6-1 cause they wouldn't have pushed at the end). They will get back to hard work and playing 60 minutes at some point over the next few weeks, then let's see how they do in these statement games (if they have any left against Chicago would be interesting, not sure if they play Chicago again)

Edited by canucksnihilist, 20 February 2013 - 09:11 AM.

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#53 J.R.

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:20 AM

Yes and no. His (and Booth's return) means that players who had settled in to roles and were playing well have now been reassigned back to their more appropriate places. That in combination with Kesler and Booth being a month+ behind everyone else means their will be an adjustment period as they get up to game speed and players all readjust to their new(old) roles.

So their return has had a temporary effect on the team that will be solved with time and practice/playing, not their removal.
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#54 BenDrinkin

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:14 AM

I'm pretty sure everyone and their neighbour knew we would probably not continue with the win streak with the return of injured players. Happens every time, without exception.
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#55 Snake Doctor

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:36 AM

The way Kesler is playing he should be the third line checking center and Schroeder should be the second line center with Hansen and Raymond.

I was thinking the same thing. Right when Kesler returns the chemistry went downhill.
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#56 Kesler0170

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:41 AM

Welllll he's got another point tonight, and I know since he's been in the line-up we've looked shaky but...

I think it has more to do with AV. If AV played his cards right, the lines that were clicking (The speed line) would
have been left unchanged, but he didn't and all of our forwards have had different line-mates literally every other shift making it very difficult for timing, and chemistry to develope.

So it's AV's fault, not Kesler's


This is exactly right. Not only has AV not been able to get his D working. He has been switching lines every 30secs. Can't build chemistry that way.
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#57 Onions

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:45 AM

yep, everyone has already said it, AV def messed things up.
he should adopt a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality.
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#58 Salo'sBomb

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:01 PM

Why not just put Higgins with Booth and Kesler and form the Amex line again? Anyone thought of this?
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#59 Makall

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:49 PM

We started losing as soon as Kesler gets back.

No coincidence here.

Kesler is poison for the team.
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#60 DeNiro

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:53 PM

We started losing as soon as Kesler gets back.

No coincidence here.

Kesler is poison for the team.


:picard:

No, they're clearly leaning on him for offense and he's not close to being back to form yet.

When other teams only have the Sedins to shut down, it makes us a pretty easy team to beat.
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