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Raymond; Great against bad teams, invisible against good ones


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#1 Merci

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:26 AM

Raymond scores, has shots, has possession and creates opportunities.

Against teams like Calgary and Edmonton.


Against Chicago, and big teams like St Louis and SJ he is invisible.

Thoughts?
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Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

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#2 apollo

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:30 AM

Can't really disagree with u on that. I've noticed the same unfortunately:(
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#3 wendythirteenthrashers

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:31 AM

He'll be fine if they keep him away from kesler...
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#4 Vansicle

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:12 AM

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Raymond scores, has shots, has possession and creates opportunities.

Against teams like Calgary and Edmonton.


Against Chicago, and big teams like St Louis and SJ he is invisible.

Thoughts?

D. Sedin; Great against good teams, invisible against bad ones

I think this season you could say that the whole team has been good against bad teams and bad against good ones. You could also say that Raymond is 4th in points on this team and tied for 1st in goals. If goals against bad teams help you win games, and thus help you rack up points, then you could also say that Raymond is largely responsible for this team making the playoffs.
So, in conclusion, you can extract what you like out of any set of data. And, furthermore, if you see the image of Jesus in a tortilla, someone else somewhere sees Charlie Manson.
I rest my case.

Edited by Vansicle, 20 February 2013 - 11:12 AM.

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Snake Doctor, on 23 May 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:snapback.png

Miller is not on our list. It's Lack as our #1. There is no reason we would have traded both Schnieder and Luongo if we never intended to give Lack the #1 starting job.  Furthermore, the salary and term Miller is looking for is not in our favor.

 


#5 WL Canuck Fan

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:12 AM

He'll be fine if they keep him away from kesler...


I am feeling a little like this myself. He performs better with Schroeder.
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#6 disisdayear

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:14 AM

I would agree with your assessment of Mase to some degree.

Raymond is a perimeter player...always has been, always will be. This can be said for most of the Canucks forwards, so he's not alone.

Mase needs open ice to be effective, so against big teams he becomes neutralized pretty easily. He had shown signs breaking through this in games 1-12, but has not been so effective last few. He still backchecks hard, so at the very least, he's contributing on the defensive front.

What we need is to have our forwards play with the moxie and physicality of carrying the puck hard to the net to create scoring chances. Can Kes and Booth (together and independent of each other) do this? Let's hope so.

I think that is what separates the Hawks from the others...all their forwards drive hard to the net and aren't afraid to do so. Even their relatively small guys, like Kane, Shaw and Bolland drive hard to the net. For the most part, we have a pretty big defence...its a shame that we let rats like Bolland and Kane have their way up the middle against us.

Edited by disisdayear, 20 February 2013 - 11:16 AM.

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#7 WL Canuck Fan

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:25 AM

I would agree with your assessment of Mase to some degree.

Raymond is a perimeter player...always has been, always will be. This can be said for most of the Canucks forwards, so he's not alone.

Mase needs open ice to be effective, so against big teams he becomes neutralized pretty easily. He had shown signs breaking through this in games 1-12, but has not been so effective last few. He still backchecks hard, so at the very least, he's contributing on the defensive front.

What we need is to have our forwards play with the moxie and physicality of carrying the puck hard to the net to create scoring chances. Can Kes and Booth (together and independent of each other) do this? Let's hope so.

I think that is what separates the Hawks from the others...all their forwards drive hard to the net and aren't afraid to do so. Even their relatively small guys, like Kane, Shaw and Bolland drive hard to the net. For the most part, we have a pretty big defence...its a shame that we let rats like Bolland and Kane have their way up the middle against us.


Not sure I completely agree. Raymond and Schroeder were finding each other, nice little passes in front of the net that were setting up scoring opportunities. Notice, in front of the net. That's not perimeter play. When he was placed on the line with Kesler, Raymond going hard got no support. Ok, Mayray takes off going up the left side drawing players that way. He can't beat the defender, so what is the move? Pass, obviously, to someone coming up the middle. Coming up the middle, lets see, maybe the center? Only Kesler isn't there. Schroeder was. Schroeder seemed to know what Mayray needed if he didn't beat the defender. He also gave the goalie another threat to be aware of.

Now, Kelswer is a good center, and a good player, and is overall far better than Schroeder, no argument. All I am saying is that Schroeder and Raymond complimented each other in a way that Kesler and Raymond do not. I fear some of it is Kesler has a big head, and is unwilling to adapt, and would rather force a player to follow him in as opposed to supporting him.
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#8 Bananas

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:28 AM

Raymond Canucks; Great against bad teams, invisible against good ones

or

Raymond Alain Vigneault; Great against bad teams coaches, invisible against good ones
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Hey CDC! Remember this!?

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#9 Wedge-tailed Eagle

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:39 AM

I thought he played well, had a couple great passes to Kesler; unfortunately Emery made the save. Just because he did not show up on the score sheet does not mean he was invisible.
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#10 Onions

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:41 AM

H's not a top liner. He's getting back to his 25 goal season form though.
maybe your setting your bar too high?
I think he's doing just fine considering he was invisible last season.
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#11 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:42 AM

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But against Anaheim he was good. Their record right now is very good.

/thread?
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#12 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:46 AM

I think raymond is a decent player and has recovered well from his injury. That being said, last nights game (at times) had some playoff grit/intensity to it

Raymond was really invisible for the most part and given the pace of the game you would have hoped it was a game he's shine in. Fair comments suggesting that he may play better with Schroeder (who he didn't see ice with at all) and AV really shortened the bench last night.

That being said, Raymond's trade value is probably the highest its been in years. If we can move him for a 20+ goal player with size to a team needing speed we will likely be better built for the playoffs and grit we need.

We are lacking aggressiveness (perhaps this is AV restraining guys) but other than Kassian I don't see anyone in our fwds who can really intimidate with a hit and score. (Volpatti is doing a heck of a job in his role but can't score).

So adding more size would seem beneficial.

Edited by BuretoMogilny, 20 February 2013 - 11:47 AM.

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#13 Bang Bang Boogie

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:07 PM

I've noticed this about Raymond the last couple seasons. But, I think it applies to many of the Canucks players, not just Raymond.
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#14 jono2009

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:11 PM

considering how raymond has been doing so well, i am really not worried about it in this useless thread.

can't blame all problems on mayray
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#15 ice orca

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:20 PM

considering how raymond has been doing so well, i am really not worried about it in this useless thread.

can't blame all problems on mayray

Merci
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#16 Merci

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:30 PM

Lol @ AV is bad against good coaches


Raymond literally has 0 shots, 0 hits, and usually a minus rating against good teams while every other player on the team finds a way to make a difference.
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Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

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#17 Bodee

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:33 PM

We need to stop all this chopping and changing of lines. I defend AV regularly on here but I am now almost feeling that he thinks so much of the abilities of this team that he goes out to handicap them.

We all know, near as damn it what the lines should be so get them sorted and lets allow the players to get into their partnerships and systems.

Dan Hamhuis has been garbage since splitting him from Bieksa and Bieksa ...............I sometimes think he is in a different game all together..........mercurial doesn't quite do him justice. Too good to sit and too unpredictable to watch sometimes.

In one move AV has ruined 2/3 players. Schroeder is a shadow of where he was and looks uncertain. Raymond can never find Kesler and Kesler doesn't look for Raymond. Hansen also looked short of how he was performing with Raymond and JS.

He's ruining Kass by playing him all over the place. Get him back with the Twins, I still think he has performed better there than Burr.

Booth needs 5 or 6 games so I absolve him from any criticism.

We were pretty poor out there and our passing and dumping was dire. We were so disjointed you would have taken this team to have just met each for the first time the day before. If it hadn't been for Cory we would have been royally shafted, long before the 3rd period.

AV better get his act together or winningest coach or not he is going to feel the wrath of the owners big time.
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#18 Patrick Jane

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:44 PM

you can say this about all the canucks so far this season except the goalies.
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#19 Phil_314

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:48 PM

Raymond is a perimeter player...always has been, always will be. This can be said for most of the Canucks forwards, so he's not alone. Mase needs open ice to be effective, so against big teams he becomes neutralized pretty easily. He had shown signs breaking through this in games 1-12, but has not been so effective last few. He still backchecks hard, so at the very least, he's contributing on the defensive front.


I think that's it right there, he scores off of big rebounds or off the rush when his speed lets him get to the puck with space around him and the goalie's the only guy he needs to focus on beating. In playoff style hockey I would prefer David Booth take his spot, to be honest. I'm pretty sure that David would be able to do the scoring he does playing with Schroeder, plus he'd go to the net hard and be able to protect Jordan in case someone came at him.

For all the hitting Raymond does he just doesn't have the bulk to have the strong center of gravity in his legs to be the kind of effective net driver that guys like Marchand, Ennis, Desharnais, Gionta... are, since while they're shorter they have the speed, courage, shiftiness and smarts to maneuver around in the offensive zone while avoiding hits. Raymond doesn't normally play the courageous, shifty game down low that those smaller guys play, since his style is more about beating guys clean with his shots or deking while somewhat in the clear. While he can score they're clearly different guys when part of the thing about having strength is bulk and Raymond should consider getting more muscle mass if he'll consider being more successful against tough-checking teams, since with his build it'll be tough to plow to the net and he'll be (he is) forced to try to beat the goalie clean with his shots.
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#20 Bodee

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:49 PM

I think raymond is a decent player and has recovered well from his injury. That being said, last nights game (at times) had some playoff grit/intensity to it

Raymond was really invisible for the most part and given the pace of the game you would have hoped it was a game he's shine in. Fair comments suggesting that he may play better with Schroeder (who he didn't see ice with at all) and AV really shortened the bench last night.

That being said, Raymond's trade value is probably the highest its been in years. If we can move him for a 20+ goal player with size to a team needing speed we will likely be better built for the playoffs and grit we need.

We are lacking aggressiveness (perhaps this is AV restraining guys) but other than Kassian I don't see anyone in our fwds who can really intimidate with a hit and score. (Volpatti is doing a heck of a job in his role but can't score).

So adding more size would seem beneficial.


You know what?

Raymond is going to be traded and then most of you guys will realise that it wasn't Raymond who was poor, it was 2/3 of the damn team.
Cory kept us in that game while most of the team was playing "giveaways 'r'us" and "find the sixpence."Could you honestly look at that game and see only Raymond performing poorly? Jeez he wasn't even the 8th worst player out there.
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#21 elvis15

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:57 PM

But against Anaheim he was good. Their record right now is very good.

/thread?

Yup, here's the teams he's scored against this year, along with their current record:
  • St Louis, 9-6-1
  • Minnesota, 7-6-2
  • Anaheim (2), 12-2-1
  • Calgary, 5-6-3
So, two bad teams and two good ones. Hardly sounds like a definitive trend. It may have been true in past seasons (particularly the last two when dealing with injuries and the like) but that's not proof of that trend continuing this year.
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#22 Raffi Torres's Smirk

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:07 PM

We need to stop all this chopping and changing of lines. I defend AV regularly on here but I am now almost feeling that he thinks so much of the abilities of this team that he goes out to handicap them.

We all know, near as damn it what the lines should be so get them sorted and lets allow the players to get into their partnerships and systems.

Dan Hamhuis has been garbage since splitting him from Bieksa and Bieksa ...............I sometimes think he is in a different game all together..........mercurial doesn't quite do him justice. Too good to sit and too unpredictable to watch sometimes.

In one move AV has ruined 2/3 players. Schroeder is a shadow of where he was and looks uncertain. Raymond can never find Kesler and Kesler doesn't look for Raymond. Hansen also looked short of how he was performing with Raymond and JS.

He's ruining Kass by playing him all over the place. Get him back with the Twins, I still think he has performed better there than Burr.

Booth needs 5 or 6 games so I absolve him from any criticism.

We were pretty poor out there and our passing and dumping was dire. We were so disjointed you would have taken this team to have just met each for the first time the day before. If it hadn't been for Cory we would have been royally shafted, long before the 3rd period.

AV better get his act together or winningest coach or not he is going to feel the wrath of the owners big time.


You're spot on, chemistry is so key. Kesler has proven chemistry with Burrows, and yet AV keeps Burrows with the Sedins (even though there were signs of chemsitry with Kassian). Moving Burrows to 2nd line would better distribute the chemistry and skill throughout the lineup, in my opinion.
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#23 Erik Karlsson

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:11 PM

AV is just messing everything up for everyone. Kass looks lost now from being on every damn line and getting benched when he makes a mistake.

Raymond should stick with Schroeder.

Just leave the lines

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-Kassian
Raymond-Schroeder-Hansen
Higgins-Lapierre-Weise/Volpatti

AV doesn't do things until it's too late usually so we will most likely see this lineup after we go on a 10 game losing streak.
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#24 elvis15

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:14 PM

Lol @ AV is bad against good coaches


Raymond literally has 0 shots, 0 hits, and usually a minus rating against good teams while every other player on the team finds a way to make a difference.

Then let's do what I just did for goals, but for games where he had shots (I don't have hits on a game by game basis nor do I think it's a telling stat for Raymond):
  • St Louis (2, 1g)
  • Dallas (2)
  • Minnesota (2)
  • Calgary (2)
  • Minnesota (1, 1g)
  • Edmonton (3)
  • Chicago (3)
  • LA (3)
  • Anaheim (3, 2g)
  • Calgary (5, 1g)
  • Edmonton (1)
  • Anaheim (2)
Surprise, surprise - we play our own division a lot, and they aren't very good right now. Raymond has had some games where he didn't record a shot (one each against Chicago, Colorado and San Jose) but he's still recorded shots against teams that are good, or have been good (LA). 3 shots against Chicago in our first meeting and in the second Anaheim game (2 or which were goals). 2 shots recently against St Louis (and 1 goal) and in the first Anaheim game.

There's nothing to support the premise based on this year's stats. As others have mentioned, I'm sure if you did the same numbers for the rest of the Canucks, you'd find they trend a little better against easier opposition but still have success against even better teams.
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#25 CanucksSayEh

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:24 PM

Lets pray those bottom feeding Ducks, Kings and Blues can claw their way into the last 3 playoff seeds, then Raymond can be useful.
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#26 Bodee

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:29 PM

It's a silly premise anyway. Just because a team is considered "poor" it may not be because the D is poor. and vice versa but probably to a lesser extent.

I think the other night was more to do with line mates. When he is with JS and JH he probably feels more onus is on him to shoot.
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#27 Millerdraft

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:23 PM

You know what?

Raymond is going to be traded and then most of you guys will realise that it wasn't Raymond who was poor, it was 2/3 of the damn team.
Cory kept us in that game while most of the team was playing "giveaways 'r'us" and "find the sixpence."Could you honestly look at that game and see only Raymond performing poorly? Jeez he wasn't even the 8th worst player out there.


Raymond has been very good this year, imo, even though the only difference appears to be that he's been given better powerplay opportunities than the last two seasons. I thought he was very helpful on the breakouts out of our zone last night and one of the few solid players out there.

If we want to hold a candle to Chicago this year, we had better keep him because we're gonna need team speed vs the Blackhawks. However if they do decide to trade Raymond and Luongo, Gillis et co should be taking a look at Jason Chimera and Carlsson (both Edler & Garrison need right side, fleet of foot, puckmoving D partners).
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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#28 DaMacNamedDre

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:14 PM

raymond should be playing with schroeder and hansen, the only guys that have shown some sort of chemistry and AV breaks them up. very strange, almost like hes sandbagging his own team.
We need kassian confident and charging like he was the the twins. Raymond needs to be playing with schroeder and hansen.

Sedin-Sedin-Kassian
Booth-Kesler-Burrows
Raymond-Schoeder-Hansen
Higgins-Lapierre-Volpatti

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Tanev
Ballard-Garrison
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___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Posted ImageBodee, on 18 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I haven't been a supporter of the Canucks for long. Mainly because firstly I know nothing about NHL and secondly ESPN America only started showing NHL 3 years ago.

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/328055-whats-wrong-with-me
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#29 shazzam

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:30 PM

So I guess this applies to kesler too... remember when he scored 41 goals? only 8 of them were against playoff teams
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#30 Peaches

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:52 PM

Raymond scores, has shots, has possession and creates opportunities.

Against teams like Calgary and Edmonton.


Against Chicago, and big teams like St Louis and SJ he is invisible.

Thoughts?


He looked really good against Chicago and St.Louis...
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