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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 6.0


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#901 RunningWild

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 05:43 PM

Not sure if posted yet, but this is a great read from Canucks Army re: quality starts for each Canucks goalie and how their goaltending is the letting them down this yr: http://canucksarmy.c...rong-goaltender
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#902 thad

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:21 PM

CBJ with having 3 first round draft picks this year is going to be a rebuild team. They wont be in contention in 3 years by the time corys contract is up. It makes no sense for them to trade away future parts for a goalie that can help a team now and will have to resign for more $$ in a few years. They'd be better off trading for or drafting a goalie prospect to develop with the rest of their team and giving up less in doing so.


That's a very valid point. There's speculation they really wanted him before, that's why I would include them in the running for him. I'm about 90% sure if gillis came out and said luongo is our guy going forward that Columbus would make an offer. Whether that offer is good enough is a different story. One thing I look at with them too is the fact that they have a bunch of good young prospects and 3 firsts. So they could give up some to get Schneider if they wanted to and still have solid foundation pieces to build.

The valid part of your argument I really agree with is can they keep him? Who knows really.. The future could look pretty bright for them after a year though(knowing Columbus probably not lol). Another thing is they could start to find some success after this year if they get a goalie. 1 or 2 breakout players and they could be next years leafs.

Another point would be how hard is it to get players to come to Columbus? Not a desirable place to live in comparison to others. Not much team history or pride there for a good player to say I always wanted to play for the bluejackets.

Not really arguing against your theories, just throwing out other points and ideas. I agree Columbus might be a long shot after the Nash trade but not out of the question.. I think Tampa might be the biggest player in a Schneider trade if it comes down to him leaving van.
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#903 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:39 PM

I would do this right this second if I was GM and try to get a cup this year!!

Stephen Weiss,

Mike Santorelli

OR

Shawn Matthias,

Erik Gudbranson,

Scott Clemmensen and a 2nd round pick or 1st if we dont resign Weiss and a 3rd next year

for Luo,Raymond,Sauve and a 4th round pick 3rd if Raymond dont resign


Makes sence so we get a back up goalie,help in the middle and picks,they get Luo and more!!!

Luo wants to be in Florida, the Panthers have what we want and both teams would be better with a trade like this,I just hope we do it sooner like I have been saying then later.Right now as is untill after the trade deadline both our goalies want to believe they are the number 1 here,WE NEED a trade so they can relax and wont have to worry.


FLORIDA
IS
NOT
INTERESTED
IN
ROBERTO
LUONGO

Doesn't matter if they have the pieces and Luongo wants to go only there. The GM doesn't want it done, the GM doesn't want it done. In Florida, in a shortened, injury riddled season, there is absolutely no pressure to perform knowing their youth are coming up, some this year, others next year and yet, others in two.

Luongo is not getting traded to Florida, if at all.
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#904 Pears

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:43 PM

FLORIDA
IS
NOT
INTERESTED
IN
ROBERTO
LUONGO

Doesn't matter if they have the pieces and Luongo wants to go only there. The GM doesn't want it done, the GM doesn't want it done. In Florida, in a shortened, injury riddled season, there is absolutely no pressure to perform knowing their youth are coming up, some this year, others next year and yet, others in two.

Luongo is not getting traded to Florida, if at all.

Where is the source that says Florida isn't interested in Luongo? Or are you just saying this because you refuse to believe Lu's on his way out?
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#905 oldnews

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:46 PM

Not sure if posted yet, but this is a great read from Canucks Army re: quality starts for each Canucks goalie and how their goaltending is the letting them down this yr: http://canucksarmy.c...rong-goaltender


I have to disagree - I think that's a pretty weak article, using a very small sample size this season, and some unconvincing reasoning to try to blame AV for the Canuck's preference to retain Schneider.

"I've been bit by the nagging theory that the Canucks are planning on trading the wrong goaltender. The blame lies mostly on the shoulders of whoever made the decision to start Schneider in Game Three against the LA Kings, which indadvertedly forced management's hand."

Weak.
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#906 RockNroLLa.

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:58 PM

I have to disagree - I think that's a pretty weak article, using a very small sample size this season, and some unconvincing reasoning to try to blame AV for the Canuck's preference to retain Schneider.

"I've been bit by the nagging theory that the Canucks are planning on trading the wrong goaltender. The blame lies mostly on the shoulders of whoever made the decision to start Schneider in Game Three against the LA Kings, which indadvertedly forced management's hand."

Weak.


Its written by a short sighted fan, anyone of us could do a better job. Weak indeed.
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#907 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:59 PM

Its written by a short sighted fan, anyone of us could do a better job. Weak indeed.


Well hot dee doodle damn. We agree on something.

That's nice.
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#908 RockNroLLa.

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:01 PM

If we could keep Raymond and trade Booth instead, that would be cool.

Lu and Shredder for Hamonic and Bailey.



Lu and eddie for Dubinsky, Johnson and a 1st.

Edited by iluvbc, 06 March 2013 - 07:11 PM.

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#909 RockNroLLa.

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:03 PM

Well hot dee doodle damn. We agree on something.

That's nice.


It would be cool if that was the case, but no we do not agree on something. I m saying the article about trading Cory instead is rather stupid.
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#910 RockNroLLa.

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:06 PM

Some posters earlier were suggesting that we are holding on to our goalies because MG doesnt know what hes got, or that they will need both because of the shortened season........well that is simply not the case. The reason the trade hasnt been made is because the right deal didnt come along yet.

The offers must not even been decent...or just giving us more of what we already have.
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#911 RunningWild

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:11 PM

I have to disagree - I think that's a pretty weak article, using a very small sample size this season, and some unconvincing reasoning to try to blame AV for the Canuck's preference to retain Schneider.

"I've been bit by the nagging theory that the Canucks are planning on trading the wrong goaltender. The blame lies mostly on the shoulders of whoever made the decision to start Schneider in Game Three against the LA Kings, which indadvertedly forced management's hand."

Weak.


I guess you and I have a different opinion on 'weak' articles. For instance, that writer uses advanced stats to suggest their goal-tending has been a problem lately. He then goes on to weigh those advanced stats against historical data. The writer also talks about it being a small sample.

Yet you suggest it's a weak article cause...... of your opinion? Data? Anything else? Ya, not sure who's argument is weaker here.

Edited by RunningWild, 06 March 2013 - 07:12 PM.

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#912 allkill326

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:14 PM

I would try to acquire Komisarek using Luongo. Reimer will be our backup, and I think he'll be a good one for 3-4 season. Luongo will be playing for 3-4 more seasons. Fair call. Let's do it.
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#913 MoneypuckOverlord

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:44 PM

I would try to acquire Komisarek using Luongo. Reimer will be our backup, and I think he'll be a good one for 3-4 season. Luongo will be playing for 3-4 more seasons. Fair call. Let's do it.


.... Komisarek is a pylon.... Leafs fans hate him to death....

Lets put it this way.

Komisarek is playing as well as Andrew Alberts. NOt sure why you even considered him. It's unbelievable....
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Players Nikolaj Ehlers have been compared too by the fan base of the Vancouver Canucks.

 

1 Pavel Bure

2 Markus Naslund

3 Nathan Mackkinon

4 Jonathan Drouin.

5 Jonathan Tavares

 

http://bleacherrepor...d-top-prospects

combine results.  Ehlers 5'11 162 lbs of solid rock.  


#914 ForsbergTheGreat

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:50 PM

That's a very valid point. There's speculation they really wanted him before, that's why I would include them in the running for him. I'm about 90% sure if gillis came out and said luongo is our guy going forward that Columbus would make an offer. Whether that offer is good enough is a different story. One thing I look at with them too is the fact that they have a bunch of good young prospects and 3 firsts. So they could give up some to get Schneider if they wanted to and still have solid foundation pieces to build.

The valid part of your argument I really agree with is can they keep him? Who knows really.. The future could look pretty bright for them after a year though(knowing Columbus probably not lol). Another thing is they could start to find some success after this year if they get a goalie. 1 or 2 breakout players and they could be next years leafs.

Another point would be how hard is it to get players to come to Columbus? Not a desirable place to live in comparison to others. Not much team history or pride there for a good player to say I always wanted to play for the bluejackets.

Not really arguing against your theories, just throwing out other points and ideas. I agree Columbus might be a long shot after the Nash trade but not out of the question.. I think Tampa might be the biggest player in a Schneider trade if it comes down to him leaving van.


I agree, I just feel that if your CBJ why give up future assets that can be key contributors for success for something you don't really need right now. Why not trade for a Bernier or even Lack/ Cantana for a much less asking price and keep your top prospects? There was speculation before at around last years trade deadline and the draft but CBJ has changed so much since then. Not just Nash but Davidson has taken charge, a new GM with a new direction for the team. I don't know, i'm not Jarmo Kekalainen but considering he was Davidson's old head scout in STL I would assume building around this years draft is the way the team will head. I guess we will have to see what happens, my personal opinion is CBJ isn't in the market for cory or luongo. Not for the VAN asking price.
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#915 oldnews

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:53 PM

I guess you and I have a different opinion on 'weak' articles. For instance, that writer uses advanced stats to suggest their goal-tending has been a problem lately. He then goes on to weigh those advanced stats against historical data. The writer also talks about it being a small sample.

Yet you suggest it's a weak article cause...... of your opinion? Data? Anything else? Ya, not sure who's argument is weaker here.


What does he use to determine that the Canucks are "looking to trade the wrong goaltender?"
Nothing other than a dumb nagging theory that the Canucks management are basing their decision upon AV's decision to start Cory in Game 3 vs LA last season. I repeat: weak. Nothing 'advanced' about that theory that AV forced MG's hand by starting Schneider.
I guess you missed the fact that the writer doesn't use advanced stats to differentiate the goaltenders - he lumps them together to suggest they've been letting the team down lately.
And if you look at the letting the team down "lately" part, what are we talking about - the last 10 games, give or take a few, since the Canucks were the cream of NHL goaltending?

Luongo has given up 15 goals on 108 shots in his last five starts.
Schneider has given up 13 goals on 149 shots in his last five starts.
They have identical .912 sv % for the season. Last year, Schneider had the edge.

Advanced stats don't support the notion that the Canucks are looking to move the wrong goaltender...a dumb theory is what is used to support that weak claim. The article's main thesis really has no basis in "advanced stats" - it attempts to make MG and AV sound simple by suggesting this decision has been determined by one playoff game 3 start. Canucks management is not that stupid - there's a hell of a lot more to their decision than having their hand forced by AV's game 3 decision (if in fact, they move Luongo in the end). Given the additional fact that the author has no idea what the relative difference between offers for the two goaltenders has been, it's pretty safe to say that he doesn't know what in fact MG and AV are thinking, nor what they will do in the end.
Weak article.

Edited by oldnews, 06 March 2013 - 07:58 PM.

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#916 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:57 PM

"@DamoSpin: Worth noting at June draft Canucks could've had Kadri, Bozak and a pick for Luongo. Got greedy. Now have lost as many as have won."


I feel like crying after reading this.

Especially since i said this is what we should be shooting for, and proposed the exact deal several times.. :(
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#917 oldnews

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:03 PM

I would try to acquire Komisarek using Luongo. Reimer will be our backup, and I think he'll be a good one for 3-4 season. Luongo will be playing for 3-4 more seasons. Fair call. Let's do it.


You've been listening to Nonis' cousin, haven't you?
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#918 DeNiro

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:05 PM

I feel like crying after reading this.

Especially since i said this is what we should be shooting for, and proposed the exact deal several times.. :(


The rumor was that the deal was in place, but Luongo refused to waive his no-trade.

So you can want that all you want, but Luongo isn't going to Toronto.
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"Dream until the dream come true"


#919 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:05 PM

News1130Sports
Sportsnet's Doug MacLean says this morning - no market for Robert Loungo trade and he's heard talk Cory Schneider may be the one traded.



MacLean is the same idiot who said a deal with Toronto had been cut, and that Burke and MG were just waiting for the CBA to be ratified before they'd announce it.
Another pretender, in a class with Cox.
Can't believe this guy ever had the reigns of an NHL team. Not surprised that team is still a bottomfeeder either.


Actually it was John Shannon.

I agree with your posts on Cox though, the guy is the worst and most idiotic reporter in the league.
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#920 oldnews

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:05 PM

I feel like crying after reading this.

Especially since i said this is what we should be shooting for, and proposed the exact deal several times.. :(


If you cry over getting trolled by a Toronto half-wit, you might want to get a little more grit to your game.
Don't take what that idiot says to be credible. Throw back.

Edited by oldnews, 06 March 2013 - 08:12 PM.

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#921 oldnews

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:07 PM

Actually it was John Shannon.

I agree with your posts on Cox though, the guy is the worst and most idiotic reporter in the league.


Oh, that's right Smashian, it was Shannon. Sorry - these dimwits just blur one into the other for me...
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#922 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:13 PM

FLORIDA
IS
NOT
INTERESTED
IN
ROBERTO
LUONGO

Doesn't matter if they have the pieces and Luongo wants to go only there. The GM doesn't want it done, the GM doesn't want it done. In Florida, in a shortened, injury riddled season, there is absolutely no pressure to perform knowing their youth are coming up, some this year, others next year and yet, others in two.

Luongo is not getting traded to Florida, if at all.


Except for the part where they have consistently been interested Lol.

The rumor was that the deal was in place, but Luongo refused to waive his no-trade.

So you can want that all you want, but Luongo isn't going to Toronto.

If you cry over getting trolled by a Toronto half-wit, you might want to get a little more grit to your game.
Don't take what that idiot says to be credible. Throw back.


Yeah, at second though it doesn't bother me as much, knowing Cox it was likely not offered. The guys an idiot.

Oh, that's right Smashian, it was Shannon. Sorry - these dimwits just blur one into the other for me...


Yeah I feel the same way.
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#923 RunningWild

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:19 PM

What does he use to determine that the Canucks are "looking to trade the wrong goaltender?"
Nothing other than a dumb nagging theory that the Canucks management are basing their decision upon AV's decision to start Cory in Game 3 vs LA last season. I repeat: weak. Nothing 'advanced' about that theory that AV forced MG's hand by starting Schneider.
I guess you missed the fact that the writer doesn't use advanced stats to differentiate the goaltenders - he lumps them together to suggest they've been letting the team down lately.
And if you look at the letting the team down "lately" part, what are we talking about - the last 10 games, give or take a few, since the Canucks were the cream of NHL goaltending?

Luongo has given up 15 goals on 108 shots in his last five starts.
Schneider has given up 13 goals on 149 shots in his last five starts.
They have identical .912 sv % for the season. Last year, Schneider had the edge.

Advanced stats don't support the notion that the Canucks are looking to move the wrong goaltender...a dumb theory is what is used to support that weak claim. The article's main thesis really has no basis in "advanced stats" - it attempts to make MG and AV sound simple by suggesting this decision has been determined by one playoff game 3 start. Canucks management is not that stupid - there's a hell of a lot more to their decision than having their hand forced by AV's game 3 decision (if in fact, they move Luongo in the end). Given the additional fact that the author has no idea what the relative difference between offers for the two goaltenders has been, it's pretty safe to say that he doesn't know what in fact MG and AV are thinking, nor what they will do in the end.
Weak article.


I think we're reading 2 different articles, we clearly interpret it very differently. At no point did I interpret any of the information you did. He's talking about EV SV% and team sh%, you're talking about overall SV% - clearly 2 very different ideas. I never got the inference that he was trying to make AV or Gillis look 'simple'.

The author used advanced stats linking to historical data to show how important Luongo has been to the teams success over last few years. And how he's been the better goaltender this yr despite the small sample size. He states he still thinks Schneider will be a future star - but that his trade value/contract is better for a team like Van who's window he thinks is closing. Not sure how that's weak - whether you agree or not.
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#924 oldnews

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:20 PM

Except for the part where they have consistently been interested Lol.




Yeah, at second though it doesn't bother me as much, knowing Cox it was likely not offered. The guys an idiot.



Yeah I feel the same way.


Don't forget the fact that the prevalent rumour at the time was that the offer was Schenn for Luongo - not Kadri, Bozak - which was actually rumoured far later - as in near the end of the CBA negotiation - and what is also unknown is whether MG or Luongo rejected an offer - if Luongo rejected going to Toronto at the draft, it's probably safe to say that MG wasn't entertaining let alone rejecting later Toronto offers, considering Luongo would have made it clear at that point that he was not waiving to go to Lalaland.
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#925 oldnews

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:21 PM

I think we're reading 2 different articles, we clearly interpret it very differently. At no point did I interpret any of the information you did. He's talking about EV SV% and team sh%, you're talking about overall SV% - clearly 2 very different ideas. I never got the inference that he was trying to make AV or Gillis look 'simple'.

The author used advanced stats linking to historical data to show how important Luongo has been to the teams success over last few years. And how he's been the better goaltender this yr despite the small sample size. He states he still thinks Schneider will be a future star - but that his trade value/contract is better for a team like Van who's window he thinks is closing. Not sure how that's weak - whether you agree or not.


"I've been bit by the nagging theory that the Canucks are planning on trading the wrong goaltender. The blame lies mostly on the shoulders of whoever made the decision to start Schneider in Game Three against the LA Kings, which indadvertedly forced management's hand."

Funny thing - if you read the link - Charon argued last year that the Canucks shouldn't start Schneider in game 3. He also had this odd take on things -

"Despite Luongo’s no-trade clause, he has a cap-friendly enough contract. His cap hit is just over $5M, which is 8th among NHL goaltenders and since it’s a front-loaded deal, more than 25% of the contract has already been paid out in about 17% of the contract length, which makes it a little easier to move."

And then this:
"As for who you move or keep in the offseason, I’m in Schneider’s camp."

Edited by oldnews, 06 March 2013 - 08:32 PM.

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#926 RunningWild

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:32 PM

"I've been bit by the nagging theory that the Canucks are planning on trading the wrong goaltender. The blame lies mostly on the shoulders of whoever made the decision to start Schneider in Game Three against the LA Kings, which indadvertedly forced management's hand."


I'm still not clear what your point is? This is the full statement:

But knowing how important Luongo has been to the Canucks' success, over the last few weeks I've been bit by the nagging theory that the Canucks are planning on trading the wrong goaltender. The blame lies mostly on the shoulders of whoever made the decision to start Schneider in Game Three against the LA Kings, which indadvertedly forced management's hand.


He's just outlined WHY Luongo's important to this team through advanced stats and historical data AND stated Schneids is easier to move - so why does it look strange that he's saying they might be moving the wrong goaltender?

Again, this is about you saying it's a weak article. I said it's not weak cause he's done what most people would do - give some data to back up the statement. Whether you agree with info or not, he's done that.
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#927 WiDeN

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:37 PM

No KoES? Is he finally banned?
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#928 oldnews

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:49 PM

I'm still not clear what your point is? This is the full statement:



He's just outlined WHY Luongo's important to this team through advanced stats and historical data AND stated Schneids is easier to move - so why does it look strange that he's saying they might be moving the wrong goaltender?

Again, this is about you saying it's a weak article. I said it's not weak cause he's done what most people would do - give some data to back up the statement. Whether you agree with info or not, he's done that.


Ironically, if Luongo's even strength sv% over 12 games is better, and their overall sv% is identical, then Schneider's short handed sv% would have to be that much better than Luongo's, to make up the difference. If a 12 game ev strength sv% (that leaves out the sh sv% - that balances the two players out) - is enough to change his mind, sorry, but I find that to be really odd stuff - and not the most convincing usage of advanced stats.
To use a tiny sample and cherry pick a situational aspect of sv% is a very contrived way to try to argue that Luongo has been better recently. Goals and saves count whether they are given up at even strength or while shorthanded, and it's just as easy to argue that the better goaltender is the one who stands up better under the pressure and test of being shorthanded.
This is minutae, and regardless - here's the really dumb part again - and it has nothing to do with advanced stats.

"The blame lies mostly on the shoulders of whoever made the decision to start Schneider in Game Three against the LA Kings, which indadvertedly forced management's hand."

How has the hand been forced? There has yet to be a hand played.

And the contradiction from the link:

"As for who you move or keep in the offseason, I’m in Schneider’s camp."
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#929 RunningWild

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 09:02 PM

Ironically, if Luongo's even strength sv% over 12 games is better, and their overall sv% is identical, then Schneider's short handed sv% would have to be that much better than Luongo's, to make up the difference. If a 12 game ev strength sv% (that leaves out the sh sv% - that balances the two players out) - is enough to change his mind, sorry, but I find that to be really odd stuff - and not the most convincing usage of advanced stats.
To use a tiny sample and cherry pick a situational aspect of sv% is a very contrived way to try to argue that Luongo has been better recently. Goals and saves count whether they are given up at even strength or while shorthanded, and it's just as easy to argue that the better goaltender is the one who stands up better under the pressure and test of being shorthanded.
This is minutae, and regardless - here's the really dumb part again - and it has nothing to do with advanced stats.

"The blame lies mostly on the shoulders of whoever made the decision to start Schneider in Game Three against the LA Kings, which indadvertedly forced management's hand."

How has the hand been forced? There has yet to be a hand played.

And the contradiction from the link:

"As for who you move or keep in the offseason, I’m in Schneider’s camp."


Pretty clear we interpret the article very differently. These stat guys use EV SV% cause roughly 75% of games are played at EV. So they think it's a more accurate way to evaluate goaltenders. They also say that shorthanded SV% fluctuates every year for goaltenders - that every yr a different goaltender is better in this category. He didn't just use this seasons small sample size, he used the previous 5 yrs for data as well. He's not cherry picking.

"As for who you move or keep in the offseason, I’m in Schneider’s camp." This is an ambiguous statement as he does state whether he thinks Schneider should be moved or kept in the offseason.

Again, I don't see any of this article as a weak. You may not agree, you clearly don't - but he's done due diligence.
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#930 DIBdaQUIB

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 09:14 PM

The rumor was that the deal was in place, but Luongo refused to waive his no-trade.

So you can want that all you want, but Luongo isn't going to Toronto.


That can't be true. Lu said he'd do what was best for the team :bigblush:

What does this mean :shock:
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