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#61 DIBdaQUIB

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:54 PM

If you go by Stanley Cup wins only then 70% of the leagues coaches should be fired right now. More to keeping a coach around then Cup wins alone. Where would Detroit be if they fired Scotty Bowman in 1995 after being swept in the finals because he hadn't won them a cup yet?

I'm all for looking for a better replacement for Vigneault and I'm still not 100% sold that Lindy Ruff is that guy and beyond him there is no one else available that is better.

It's not always the techincal anbility of a coach that needs to be improved, it can be the communication style, ability to adapt, treatment of players, and the ability to motivate players to get the most from each.

AV my be a great coach but perhaps his message is getting old and the players are losing focus/intensity. They certainly play like it most nights. LA was a different team with a new coach and message. The Leafs seem to be a different team to play agianst this year under Carlyle though they have hte same personnel as last year.

I doubt Buffalo thinks they will get a better technical coach than Ruff but they are looking for a change of pace, attitude, message to spark their players.

The Nucks system looks tired and predictable. They have been dominated for long periods of time in a way I have not seen any team dominated. Something is wrong and you can't replace l the players.

#62 DIBdaQUIB

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:55 PM

No, but these players practically don't exist...
And outside of Tanev we don't have a single "soft" d-man on this team.


DIsagree on Tanev being "soft" he battled far harder and was more effective than big man Edler today. He may not have the size to hit hard but he is far better at using his body and speed to move the puck than turn-over-machine Alex.

#63 Christophe

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:56 PM

Man I'm getting really tired of this coaching. They look exactly the same since 2010, nothing has changed.

Feed off easy teams, can't beat good teams.

#64 Legend Killer

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:57 PM

Need to play more blue collar style hockey. We don't have many players that are willing to do that.
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#65 canuck73_3

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:59 PM

Man I'm getting really tired of this coaching. They look exactly the same since 2010, nothing has changed.

Feed off easy teams, can't beat good teams.


Thats why you win Presidents trophies, feeding off easy teams only... :rolleyes:


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#66 canuck73_3

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:00 PM

It's not always the techincal anbility of a coach that needs to be improved, it can be the communication style, ability to adapt, treatment of players, and the ability to motivate players to get the most from each.

AV my be a great coach but perhaps his message is getting old and the players are losing focus/intensity. They certainly play like it most nights. LA was a different team with a new coach and message. The Leafs seem to be a different team to play agianst this year under Carlyle though they have hte same personnel as last year.

I doubt Buffalo thinks they will get a better technical coach than Ruff but they are looking for a change of pace, attitude, message to spark their players.

The Nucks system looks tired and predictable. They have been dominated for long periods of time in a way I have not seen any team dominated. Something is wrong and you can't replace l the players.


And yet again still no replacement available that is better than Alain Vigneault, Lindy Ruff IMO is a lateral move at best but morre likely a downgrade.


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#67 Canucks_fo_life

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:01 PM

2-1-1 road trip, moving along now.....
I rather lose with the Canucks, than win with any other team

This is OUR year

GO CANUCKS GOOOOOO!!!!!!!

#68 DaMacNamedDre

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:03 PM

Need to play more blue collar style hockey. We don't have many players that are willing to do that.



Bingo ! I think part of it is managements fault,they need to add some animals.
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Posted ImageBodee, on 18 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I haven't been a supporter of the Canucks for long. Mainly because firstly I know nothing about NHL and secondly ESPN America only started showing NHL 3 years ago.

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/328055-whats-wrong-with-me
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#69 billabong

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:10 PM

1) Because Bozak is marginally better than Mason Raymond, and Biggs is nothing to write home about. That return doesn't make this team better.

2) Aside from Garrison/Edler, this defense has gelled extremely well. And lets give Garrison more than a 20 game sample. If MG can somehow acquire a top-4 RH d-man to play with Edler and not make this team worse, I am sure he would. I have doubts he could even if he wanted to.

3) Again, lets find this mystery center whos available. If we could magically get a Paul Gaustad, I would be all for it. Good luck finding one.

4) So how many players are upgrades on Raymond (presumably the odd man out in this situation) and are also tough?



1) bozak is 56.7% on draws, he is stronger on his feet, he plays pp and pk and he would finally solidfy the 2nd pp units center position

2) i am a garrison supporter but they must have known he played on the left side last year so then why would they give him so much money when you already have hamhuis and edler in the top 4 group :blink:

3) trading luongo for bozak + for example would solve this issue and clear cap space

4) its hard to tell right now because noone has declared themselves a seller but if the sens ever send neils name out to sea and see what bites the canucks better the most aggresive shark in the ocean or mg needs a kick in the butt

to ott: raymond, 1st pick 2013

to van: neil, smith

it may be rash or tad over payment but smith and neil know their roles and do them well, if it costs a late first round pick and enigmtic forward then im all for it...i doubt ottawa would want to trade one or both of them but its a thought

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#70 Kack Zassian

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:25 PM

DIsagree on Tanev being "soft" he battled far harder and was more effective than big man Edler today. He may not have the size to hit hard but he is far better at using his body and speed to move the puck than turn-over-machine Alex.


Tanev is very strong positionally. But he isn't going to make anyones life tough physically (nor should he be). My point is, we have 5/6 d-men who can make life hard physically for opponents.

#71 Kack Zassian

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:29 PM

1) bozak is 56.7% on draws, he is stronger on his feet, he plays pp and pk and he would finally solidfy the 2nd pp units center position

2) i am a garrison supporter but they must have known he played on the left side last year so then why would they give him so much money when you already have hamhuis and edler in the top 4 group :blink:

3) trading luongo for bozak + for example would solve this issue and clear cap space

4) its hard to tell right now because noone has declared themselves a seller but if the sens ever send neils name out to sea and see what bites the canucks better the most aggresive shark in the ocean or mg needs a kick in the butt

to ott: raymond, 1st pick 2013

to van: neil, smith


1) So does Bozak as a rental playing over Schroeder improve this team compared to having the Luongo/Schneider tandem?

2) IIRC hes had some success on the right side? I think their priority was acquire Best Player Available, and that player was likely Garrison.

3) I don't think Bozak makes this team better (at least not at the price of Lu). And unless were going to replace Luongos 5.33 million, that cap-space is irrelevant.

4) I think if you proposed that to Sens fans, it would not go over well at all.

#72 Vancouver's comeback

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:30 PM

But you come in here and troll on my thread, don't expect me to play nice. Friend.


So brave.
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Hit first, ask questions second
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#73 brownky

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:39 PM

And yet again still no replacement available that is better than Alain Vigneault, Lindy Ruff IMO is a lateral move at best but morre likely a downgrade.


The fact that this thought even exists scares me. The fact that you're not alone in it saddens me.

Vigneault is not even a top 10 coach in this league, much less "an upgrade" on Lindy Ruff. AV is an "allright" coach, perfectly suited for the Columbus, Florida and such teams.

Not the Canucks.

Though my chorus has been going since the day he was hired.

#74 Kack Zassian

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:45 PM

The fact that this thought even exists scares me. The fact that you're not alone in it saddens me.

Vigneault is not even a top 10 coach in this league, much less "an upgrade" on Lindy Ruff. AV is an "allright" coach, perfectly suited for the Columbus, Florida and such teams.

Not the Canucks.

Though my chorus has been going since the day he was hired.


So you thought this despite his president trophies, Jack Adams award, and Stanley Cup Finals appearance?

Even last year he finished 8th in Jack Adams voting...

Any suggestions on who would replace him?
*And be a top NHL coach?

Edited by Kack Zassian, 24 February 2013 - 08:45 PM.


#75 canuck73_3

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:55 PM

The fact that this thought even exists scares me. The fact that you're not alone in it saddens me.

Vigneault is not even a top 10 coach in this league, much less "an upgrade" on Lindy Ruff. AV is an "allright" coach, perfectly suited for the Columbus, Florida and such teams.

Not the Canucks.

Though my chorus has been going since the day he was hired.


He's not even a top ten coach? That's why he finished 8th in voting by experts who are paid to judge this.

Alright coaches don't win multiple presidents trophies, alright coaches don't win the Jack Adams award, alright coaches don't make Stanley Cup finals appearances. Alright coaches don't consistently finish in the top 10 in the league 5 years running, good coaches do.


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#76 miles.p

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:59 PM

So you thought this despite his president trophies, Jack Adams award, and Stanley Cup Finals appearance?

Even last year he finished 8th in Jack Adams voting...

Any suggestions on who would replace him?
*And be a top NHL coach?


when you look at this team, 2 franchise players who won the hart trophy, a vezina candidate goalie, hard-nosed players that play to win, any coach would have gotten the same accolades.

But the fact remains, AV could not win when it counted the most. He has had 6 chances, and out of those 6 we made it out of the second round ONCE and that was barely after giving up a 3-0 series lead. You have to be a really poor team with a lack of focus to lose a 3-0 series and be one goal away from elimination.

Notice i said team. AV is the coach, he is the engine for the team. The engine has became rusty after 7 years. Gillis has managed to do some oil change, and do some re-adjustments during this 7 years, but no matter what you do, you can't take rust out of the engine. You have to replace that engine with another one.

You might get more milage with the current engine, but it won't be capable of what it can do with a new engine.

Poor analogy, but that's what this has come down to. Gillis should have never given that extension to AV last summer. Moving past all the horrible trades and signing, extended AV while him constantly choking under pressure made no sense.

The product has to change. Like the one poster in the other thread, this team has no identity. And how do you build an identity? The coach finding a style to play and using that style to win. What's the canucks identity right now? Get the goaltender to bail you out or you will be in for a long night. That's not coaching, that's luck. You can win some games with luck, but won't win the SC with it.

Edited by miles.p, 24 February 2013 - 09:01 PM.


#77 Kack Zassian

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:14 PM

when you look at this team, 2 franchise players who won the hart trophy, a vezina candidate goalie, hard-nosed players that play to win, any coach would have gotten the same accolades.

But the fact remains, AV could not win when it counted the most.


SO correct me if I am wrong.
- The success of this team is because of the team, and has nothing to do with AV
- The downfalls of the team are all the fault of AV?

Honestly, if Mike Babcock were fired tomorrow, I would hop right on the bandwagon to fire AV and hire Babcock.

However, AV is still one of the better coaches in the league and there is no real replacements available.

Is he the best coach in the NHL? I don't think anyone would say that. But I think most people would have him hovering around the top-5 every year.

He's basically the Luongo of Coaches. Gets a lot of undue hate, but is still one of the best at what he does.

#78 Aladeen

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:15 PM

Fire AV thread after a loss what a surprise! :rolleyes:

He's not going anywhere so deal with it or cheer for another team.
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#79 DIBdaQUIB

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:37 PM

Fire AV thread after a loss what a surprise! :rolleyes:

He's not going anywhere so deal with it or cheer for another team.


Everyone has a right to an opinion and to discuss it here.

Deal with it or stop posting!

#80 billabong

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:47 PM

1) So does Bozak as a rental playing over Schroeder improve this team compared to having the Luongo/Schneider tandem?

2) IIRC hes had some success on the right side? I think their priority was acquire Best Player Available, and that player was likely Garrison.

3) I don't think Bozak makes this team better (at least not at the price of Lu). And unless were going to replace Luongos 5.33 million, that cap-space is irrelevant.

4) I think if you proposed that to Sens fans, it would not go over well at all.


1) Bozak is no rental u sign him long term term if u deal for him

2) IIRC?

3) im using bozak as an example because he has been rumoured to be coming back the other way if indeed luo gets dealt to tor and that cap space may not used now but in the off season when the cap comes to 64.3m and we already have 59m spent already for next year, there is gonna be some wheeling and dealing from the canucks

4) I don't think so either because those players are very valuable and cost a lot to acquire or take time to develop and we don't have time so my point is that mg has to spend a quality piece (most likely a 2nd or 1st pick) to fill this need....I don't think mg at this time is willing to go there and that's what scares because u can guarantee us to be contending this year and the next...after that, who knows

This is our time and without outrageously sacrificing our future, put all your eggs into this year and the next
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#81 brownky

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:52 PM

He's not even a top ten coach? That's why he finished 8th in voting by experts who are paid to judge this.

Alright coaches don't win multiple presidents trophies, alright coaches don't win the Jack Adams award, alright coaches don't make Stanley Cup finals appearances. Alright coaches don't consistently finish in the top 10 in the league 5 years running, good coaches do.


Did you know, that the winner of the Jack Adams trophy is selected by a poll of the National Hockey League Broadcasters Association, and not by actual experts of... anything?

A terrible team with a stellar coach is still "relatively" terrible. A stellar team makes a terrible coach still "relatively" good.

But you can go ahead and cheer for individual Jack Adams nominations for the coach, I'd rather no trophy except the cup.


One final food for thought, Marc Crawford won the Adams too. Want him back?

Or if you put that much stock in an Adams win, Lindy Ruff has won one as well.

#82 miles.p

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:54 PM

SO correct me if I am wrong.
- The success of this team is because of the team, and has nothing to do with AV
- The downfalls of the team are all the fault of AV?

Honestly, if Mike Babcock were fired tomorrow, I would hop right on the bandwagon to fire AV and hire Babcock.

However, AV is still one of the better coaches in the league and there is no real replacements available.

Is he the best coach in the NHL? I don't think anyone would say that. But I think most people would have him hovering around the top-5 every year.

He's basically the Luongo of Coaches. Gets a lot of undue hate, but is still one of the best at what he does.


No, please go ahead and re-read what I wrote. Don't misinterpret the meaning of my posts.

The team has had success DESPITE the lack of a good coach. Now you might disagree about my definition of a good coach. AV is certainly not one of them.

Answer this question. Do you think the meltdowns (including the 3-0 collapse against chicago) in the playoffs could have been avoided had we had another coach? I honestly believe so. I feel that if we had a better coach, we would have had 1 SC banner by now. The Canucks were good but again not good enough. Simply because of coaching. This is evident, when the teams that they have lost in the playoffs have won on to win the SC. I also feel that any other coach besides AV would have gotten the same accomplishments, simply because of the players.

Also, as I recall, when the Canucks lost in the SCF, Gillis said that he feels that the team is good enough to win it all. He kept the core and made minor changes, but this time they didn't even get close to the finals. Furthermore, we still have the same players, the twins who won the hart trophy, the vezina candidate, and all the supporting core. With your logic, they should have won in the playoffs. But that has not happened yet. Why? Again because of the coach. The coach that you seem to back so much has failed 6 out of 7 playoff attempts. I don't know what your standards of fail is, but my standard, that is a fail and a half. Why should you get another chance when you've failed 6 times already.

Now again refer to my analogy of the rusty engine. This engine is rusty. You can get milage from a rusty engine, but don't expect the same performance as you got it when it was brand new.

NEXT

Edited by miles.p, 24 February 2013 - 09:57 PM.


#83 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:01 PM

Irrelevant.


How the Hell is that irrelevant?

We aren't going to be facing Calgary, Edmonton, Minnesota and Colorado in the playoffs. If this team can't beat good teams now what would lead us to believe we could then in a 7 game series?

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#84 canuck73_3

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:06 PM

Did you know, that the winner of the Jack Adams trophy is selected by a poll of the National Hockey League Broadcasters Association, and not by actual experts of... anything?

A terrible team with a stellar coach is still "relatively" terrible. A stellar team makes a terrible coach still "relatively" good.

But you can go ahead and cheer for individual Jack Adams nominations for the coach, I'd rather no trophy except the cup.


One final food for thought, Marc Crawford won the Adams too. Want him back?

Or if you put that much stock in an Adams win, Lindy Ruff has won one as well.


Funny you're the one focusing on just the Jack Adams award here but don't acknowledge the consistant finishes at the top of the league Stanley Cup appearance and Presidents trophies.

I never had an issue with Crow as coach, he's not better than AV though same goes for Ruff.

There is more to coaching than 1 award or 1 cup it is everything put together. AV is a good coach no matter how you try to dissect it you're an idiot if you think otherwise.

On the other end of the arguement I do believe if we have an early exit this year, this summer would be the ideal time to pull the trigger on a firing.


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#85 StopesisCanucks

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:06 PM

why did I sign up an account? I don't understand how their is so much hate and people on here who think they can do better then the GM, coach, goalies the top 9 forwards and the defence. oya and the medical staff.

#86 canuck73_3

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:09 PM

How the Hell is that irrelevant?

We aren't going to be facing Calgary, Edmonton, Minnesota and Colorado in the playoffs. If this team can't beat good teams now what would lead us to believe we could then in a 7 game series?


LA struggled against top teams last year and got hot at the right time. As long as you're a playoff contender in March/April your record against winning/losing teams is irrelevant. Getting hot in April and beyond is all that matters, how many times have we seen a team in the playoffs face a team they went 1-3 or 2-4 against in the season only to win the playoff series. It happens more often than you think.


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#87 miles.p

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:12 PM

why did I sign up an account? I don't understand how their is so much hate and people on here who think they can do better then the GM, coach, goalies the top 9 forwards and the defence. oya and the medical staff.


Nobody is saying they can do better. This is a forum - where we can observe the team and comment on them. You don't have to agree with how i observe the team, but you can't tell me that i cannot comment based on what I see.

Now on to your second point. Starting with the GM - he's made moves but they haven't panned out as well as he thought it would. Using moneyball doesn't help you win games. Using moneyball only looks at plus.minus, and a statistically overview if the team would be better off or not. But the GM and his talented scouts simply have failed to look into beyond statistics. Chemistry is one of the biggest things that moneyball cannot dictate. And at the same time, chemistry is the one most important characteristic of a SC team.

I've already commented on the coach. No need to say more.

Regarding the medical staff. They haven't done a good job either. Kesler keeps going in and out of the lineup every season. Poor diagnosis, not enough treatment..etc etc.

So please no the definition of the word "forum" before you create an account on one.

#88 miles.p

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:14 PM

LA struggled against top teams last year and got hot at the right time. As long as you're a playoff contender in March/April your record against winning/losing teams is irrelevant. Getting hot in April and beyond is all that matters, how many times have we seen a team in the playoffs face a team they went 1-3 or 2-4 against in the season only to win the playoff series. It happens more often than you think.


No they had a different identity along with a fresh voice and a different coaching staff. A team just can't turn it on whenever they feel like. If that was the cause, the Canucks should be the best team out there, as they never play at 100%.

#89 canuck73_3

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:16 PM

No they had a different identity along with a fresh voice and a different coaching staff. A team just can't turn it on whenever they feel like. If that was the cause, the Canucks should be the best team out there, as they never play at 100%.


Newsflash no team plays at 100% the season is too long and grueling you're going to have off games believe it or not...


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#90 brownky

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:21 PM

Funny you're the one focusing on just the Jack Adams award here but don't acknowledge the consistant finishes at the top of the league Stanley Cup appearance and Presidents trophies.

I never had an issue with Crow as coach, he's not better than AV though same goes for Ruff.

There is more to coaching than 1 award or 1 cup it is everything put together. AV is a good coach no matter how you try to dissect it you're an idiot if you think otherwise.

On the other end of the arguement I do believe if we have an early exit this year, this summer would be the ideal time to pull the trigger on a firing.


Take off the homer glasses. Also, defending your position through insulting the person attacking the position merely shows your own position as weak. Try not to do that.

See what he's had to work with in the past 6 years. The level of talent on this team is spectacular. How many third period leads have the Canucks blown due to the "OK BOYS SHUT IT DOWN" in the third? When the first two periods are 70% in the other team's end, and the third is 80% in ours... who would you fault for that? The goalie?

Or the line 'slot machine' - Who plays on what line isn't a nightly decision, it's a shift-by-shift decision. It's extremely difficult to build chemistry with another player or other players when you spend your next shift with other players. This reduces efficiency in play flow, and leads to bad player output.

Along those lines, his total willingness to doghouse certain players for whatever reason, and prioritize others based on ... no criteria at all makes his man management skills extremely suspect.

Tactically, he's a nightmare. The powerplay (albeit that's supposed to be the responsibility of the offense, at some point the head coach needs to take responsibility) is too predictable.

Which brings me to predictable. In every multigame series we have featured in, if the other team has had anywhere near the talent of ours, we have either had extreme trouble, or lost. This is because the same game plan is followed, game in, game out, making it a lot easier to counter, despite the talent. By being unable to adjust to conditions presenting in the game, and influencing the players themselves to change it, he is creating a deficiency where none should be. It's a lot easier to see what is going on, who is not going where (etc) from standing on the bench than it is when you're out there. In the LA series last year for a recent example, Sutter was constantly giving information, morale, or whatever he was doing to the players on that bench. Every camera shot, you'd see him leaning over, talking to a player, pointing things out. AV stood back, chewing on the gum.

We didn't win the series.

And I hope you're not going to say that LA has more talent than the Canucks...




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