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Why we won't win the cup with our "system"


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#31 SkeeterHansen

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 05:53 PM

Canucks lack passion to win the cup.


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#32 elvis15

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:23 PM

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Close enough?
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Tanev is going to EDM. I can put my life savings down on it

 


#33 DownUndaCanuck

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:48 PM

We need to play the way Boston and Los Angeles did when they won the Cup. Before them, teams like Chicago and Pittsburgh were simply stacked with skill.

Boston and L.A play a simple game - depth scoring from all 4 lines up front, and no offence from the blueline. Their defences are simple, shutdown, stay-at-home defences that don't gamble, don't take stupid risks or pinches and don't allow much offence. Of course great goaltending is key, but a sound defence is far more important. They scored their goals off turnovers and opponents mistakes by rushing up the ice on odd-man rushes when opponents would pinch or make mistakes.

Opportunistic offence and good defence. In the playoffs it's all about out-lasting the opponent, breaking them down and then capitalizing on their mistakes. This is what the Canucks need to become - less of a risky defence with forwards that rely on defenders to score.
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#34 37yrsncounting

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:48 PM

we've been winning for five years with offensive and defensive systems that has changed overtime under AV depending on the type of players we have. At the moment, when we played the boring lock it down style we have success. When Kesler came back, we played a more up tempo style and exposed our weakness on defence. Our D core right now can't seem to make the right decisions with the simplest of breakouts and pinches. Next to the skills that a player have, they must make the right reads and the right choices of plays. So your can say ballard and garrison has been slow to adapt to our system but its more about their hockey IQ and their ability to read the players on the team that is the issue. ie, ballard plays well with tanev because tanev makes that first pass out of the zone look easy. Ballard by himself would be more of an adventure.
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#35 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:58 PM

Well here's what i see the problems to be with our system:

1- The Sedins are playing sheltered minutes and they don't play defensively.

Most contenders in this post-cap era have had their stars come up with stellar defensive performances. The higher the cap, the more defensive efforts required.

So why is it that this team, a supposed cup contender, continues to not utilize the Sedins in any defensive fashion whatsoever? Meaning, why are players like even previously one-dimensional Patrick Kane can become a takeaway force but the Sedins cannot do anything defensively but hook a guy?

This is a coaching problem, imho. While it's okay to have a few one-dimensional guys on your 'cup contending' team, those guys CANNOT be your stars. They eat the most minutes. They are relied on more than any other players. So they CANNOT be useless defensively. Yet, our team allows this to continue, year after year. We won't win with that approach until the rules change to promote offense again.

2 - Related to 1, why is it that most teams use their stars to PK, ours does not? Our PK is currently awful. Why? Because our good players aren't doing it. Instead, Dale Weise is. Dale Weise? Please...

If the Sedins want to lead this team to glory then it's time for them to put on the big boy pants. Again, they don't play defensively well. But Patrick Kane does? Not until the coaching freakin' makes it happen.

3 - Related to 1 and 2. Why does Ryan Kesler get ALL the hard minutes? The result is plain as day: He gets hurt ALL the time now. Spread out the difficult minutes and watch our good players be hurt less.

4 - We give our defense a green light to jump up in the play while not one of them is a speedster. You know what happens from that as we've seen it time and time again against the Hawks: Breakaways and odd-man rushes against, totally exposing our $9mil elite goaltending, making them worthless.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that our defenders should NOT be given the green light all the time. This team is not fast enough for it. Rather, our defense is built for collapsing and making it incredibly difficult for guys to score on our $9mil elite goaltending.

If we're paying $9mil for our goalies, then make them look good.

4 - This teams' corsi beyond the one-dimensional Sedins is BRUTAL. This has always been a problem because none of the non-Sedin guys see any light at the end of the tunnel in terms of opportunity. It's hard to get up for games when you see the Sedins get treated like royalty, no matter how many times they coast back on the backcheck while you're destroying yourself every shift starting in your own zone with junk linemates.

Our 4th line NEVER starts in the O zone. So how in the hell are they going to bang guys up the ice? They're not fast enough. The most they can hope for is getting the puck out of the zone and then changing, exhausted. And this is done purposely. No wonder Kesler has to play so much.


Overall, this approach got the Sedins easy points for awhile, but since Ehrhoff went away, those points are getting harder to come by. Basically, it's a sinch to shut them down if your team has more than one defensively-capable line.

I believe that with the proper instruction and direction, the Sedins are of course capable of playing more difficult minutes. The can lead this team to glory. They are superstars. But right now we're SQUANDERING them.

No, the solutions aren't instant or easy, but until we start moving in this direction, we won't go anywhere in the playoffs.

Nobody cares about puff points against weak opposition anymore. Like i said, it's big boy pants time.

Get r done, AV. Or you're inevitably toast.

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#36 Dancin'Droid

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 07:09 PM

Well here's what i see the problems to be with our system:

1- The Sedins are playing sheltered minutes and they don't play defensively.

Most contenders in this post-cap era have had their stars come up with stellar defensive performances. The higher the cap, the more defensive efforts required.

So why is it that this team, a supposed cup contender, continues to not utilize the Sedins in any defensive fashion whatsoever? Meaning, why are players like even previously one-dimensional Patrick Kane can become a takeaway force but the Sedins cannot do anything defensively but hook a guy?

This is a coaching problem, imho. While it's okay to have a few one-dimensional guys on your 'cup contending' team, those guys CANNOT be your stars. They eat the most minutes. They are relied on more than any other players. So they CANNOT be useless defensively. Yet, our team allows this to continue, year after year. We won't win with that approach until the rules change to promote offense again.

2 - Related to 1, why is it that most teams use their stars to PK, ours does not? Our PK is currently awful. Why? Because our good players aren't doing it. Instead, Dale Weise is. Dale Weise? Please...

If the Sedins want to lead this team to glory then it's time for them to put on the big boy pants. Again, they don't play defensively well. But Patrick Kane does? Not until the coaching freakin' makes it happen.

3 - Related to 1 and 2. Why does Ryan Kesler get ALL the hard minutes? The result is plain as day: He gets hurt ALL the time now. Spread out the difficult minutes and watch our good players be hurt less.

4 - We give our defense a green light to jump up in the play while not one of them is a speedster. You know what happens from that as we've seen it time and time again against the Hawks: Breakaways and odd-man rushes against, totally exposing our $9mil elite goaltending, making them worthless.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that our defenders should NOT be given the green light all the time. This team is not fast enough for it. Rather, our defense is built for collapsing and making it incredibly difficult for guys to score on our $9mil elite goaltending.

If we're paying $9mil for our goalies, then make them look good.

4 - This teams' corsi beyond the one-dimensional Sedins is BRUTAL. This has always been a problem because none of the non-Sedin guys see any light at the end of the tunnel in terms of opportunity. It's hard to get up for games when you see the Sedins get treated like royalty, no matter how many times they coast back on the backcheck while you're destroying yourself every shift starting in your own zone with junk linemates.

Our 4th line NEVER starts in the O zone. So how in the hell are they going to bang guys up the ice? They're not fast enough. The most they can hope for is getting the puck out of the zone and then changing, exhausted. And this is done purposely. No wonder Kesler has to play so much.


Overall, this approach got the Sedins easy points for awhile, but since Ehrhoff went away, those points are getting harder to come by. Basically, it's a sinch to shut them down if your team has more than one defensively-capable line.

I believe that with the proper instruction and direction, the Sedins are of course capable of playing more difficult minutes. The can lead this team to glory. They are superstars. But right now we're SQUANDERING them.

No, the solutions aren't instant or easy, but until we start moving in this direction, we won't go anywhere in the playoffs.

Nobody cares about puff points against weak opposition anymore. Like i said, it's big boy pants time.

Get r done, AV. Or you're inevitably toast.

I agree the sedins should play so PK time. They use to do it and where good. I remember the 2010 playoffs that in the first round against the kings the sedins seemed like the only guys who could kill penalties. AV should put them on the PK even if it is only 30 seconds.
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#37 oldnews

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 07:44 PM

Well here's what i see the problems to be with our system:

1- The Sedins are playing sheltered minutes and they don't play defensively.


Ok - I couldn't read past this claim, which doesn't seem to grasp the concept of "sheltered".

The only player on the Canucks roster who faces a higher quality of competition that the Sedins is Alex Burrows.

There is nothing "sheltered" about the Sedins minutes - in fact, AV regularly and willingly matches them up against the opponent's top lines, and scarcely bothers to avoid particular d-pairings.

The only tailored aspect of their game is, given the fact they are probably the best cycling dynamoes in the NHL, they are used primarily for offensive zone starts - which makes perfect sense. Teams generally don't use their offensive, puck moving defensemen in a shutdown/pk role - unless they are that rare breed of outstanding two-way playe, it just makes no sense - nor does the idea of using the Sedins to kill penalities (let alone risk injury) or for defensive zone starts, except where absolutely necessary. It's an unnecessary risk, it's a waste of their energy, and it doesn't use them to their greatest strengths. That would be terrible coaching imo to do so.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the OP and the vast majority of people here criticizing the Canucks' "system" don't have a particularly solid grasp of systems in the first place. There are few teams in the NHL who matchup imo, and Philly is definitely not one of them.

Edited by oldnews, 02 March 2013 - 07:45 PM.

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#38 37yrsncounting

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:06 PM

I always thought the reason the sedins don't play the pk is because AV is trying to find the right matchup

often, the best D pairs on the other team would be on the power play. By playing the sedins afterwards, they play against weaker D pairs on the opposing team.

I agree they would be good penalty killers but it would be wasting 45 seconds of a offfensive shift after the penalty kill

Edited by 36yrsncounting, 02 March 2013 - 08:07 PM.

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#39 dirk diggler

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:04 PM

Sedin's are an issue but noone wants to admit it because they are such great guys in the community :rolleyes:
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#40 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:06 PM

80% offensive zone starts = sheltered, bud.

NOBODY else in the league gets that royal treatment.

Ok - I couldn't read past this claim, which doesn't seem to grasp the concept of "sheltered".

The only player on the Canucks roster who faces a higher quality of competition that the Sedins is Alex Burrows.

There is nothing "sheltered" about the Sedins minutes - in fact, AV regularly and willingly matches them up against the opponent's top lines, and scarcely bothers to avoid particular d-pairings.

The only tailored aspect of their game is, given the fact they are probably the best cycling dynamoes in the NHL, they are used primarily for offensive zone starts - which makes perfect sense. Teams generally don't use their offensive, puck moving defensemen in a shutdown/pk role - unless they are that rare breed of outstanding two-way playe, it just makes no sense - nor does the idea of using the Sedins to kill penalities (let alone risk injury) or for defensive zone starts, except where absolutely necessary. It's an unnecessary risk, it's a waste of their energy, and it doesn't use them to their greatest strengths. That would be terrible coaching imo to do so.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the OP and the vast majority of people here criticizing the Canucks' "system" don't have a particularly solid grasp of systems in the first place. There are few teams in the NHL who matchup imo, and Philly is definitely not one of them.


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#41 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:16 PM

Anybody ever take the time to think that our system takes a while to get assimilated into because the players being assimilated are coming from crap teams where they clearly aren't coached well/playing in a good system?

Interesting how Samuellson came from Det, similar system, integrated immediately and had his best year as a pro on this team?

Stop the whining and think deeper folks. Our bad system, as I repeat ad nauseaum has got us

2 pres trophies in a row
A scf appearance
2 mvps
1 selke
1 jennings pair

hmm..

wow...guess those players did that all in spite of the bad system we have.
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#42 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:19 PM

C'mon people. Any fan knows our system would have won the cup if the majority of our starters weren't injured/suspended vs Boston. Kesler - groin
Edler - broken finger
Rome - suspended
Hamhuis - hip fracture
Bieksa - lacerated achilles tendon
Raymond - broken back
Samuelsson - groin injury
Higgins - broken toe
were all injured terribly


Henrik was playing hurt too
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#43 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:23 PM

We went to the scf because our competition up to the Bruins was clearly worse than us. And because Kesler broke himself taking us past Nashville.

We lost, no, destroyed, in the scf because we didn't have Manny and Kesler was broke. Nobody to cover Sedin defensive ineptness.

Either we need to cover them, or they need to do something themselves.

Anybody ever take the time to think that our system takes a while to get assimilated into because the players being assimilated are coming from crap teams where they clearly aren't coached well/playing in a good system?

Interesting how Samuellson came from Det, similar system, integrated immediately and had his best year as a pro on this team?

Stop the whining and think deeper folks. Our bad system, as I repeat ad nauseaum has got us

2 pres trophies in a row
A scf appearance
2 mvps
1 selke
1 jennings pair

hmm..

wow...guess those players did that all in spite of the bad system we have.


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#44 oldnews

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:28 PM

80% offensive zone starts = sheltered, bud.

NOBODY else in the league gets that royal treatment.


Uh that's utterly simplistic.
And not sure who your bud is, but he aint me.

Are you watching tonight's game?
Sedins are being used almost exclusively against Kopitar line and Doughty pairing - as usual - and eating them alive. No sheltering whatsoever.
Offensive zone starts alone do not equal "sheltered" - sheltered players get situational matchups against opposition's weaker players.

Edited by oldnews, 02 March 2013 - 10:32 PM.

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#45 Kesler's Nose

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:59 PM

Only way I get rid of AV is for a coach like Babcock or another revered coach that has won a cup before. Anyone else, noooo.. Philly hasn't won anything yet either and have early playoff exits (Giving up way too many goals) so I definitely don't want to see that system or style of play over here in Vancouver.
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"It's an opportunity, we don't look at it as a last chance... We look at it as an opportunity to do something great. We are going to take it period by period, shift by shift. You just have to be better than the guy across from you... Every guy in this locker room I can say believes we can do this." - Ryan Kesler

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#46 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:03 PM

Uh-huh. Let's just say the Sedins are better WITH the puck than without it. M'kay, bud?

Uh that's utterly simplistic.
And not sure who your bud is, but he aint me.

Are you watching tonight's game?
Sedins are being used almost exclusively against Kopitar line and Doughty pairing - as usual - and eating them alive. No sheltering whatsoever.
Offensive zone starts alone do not equal "sheltered" - sheltered players get situational matchups against opposition's weaker players.


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#47 CB007

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:47 PM

Ok - I couldn't read past this claim, which doesn't seem to grasp the concept of "sheltered".

The only player on the Canucks roster who faces a higher quality of competition that the Sedins is Alex Burrows.

There is nothing "sheltered" about the Sedins minutes - in fact, AV regularly and willingly matches them up against the opponent's top lines, and scarcely bothers to avoid particular d-pairings.


The OP meant zone starts, not QoC.
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#48 oldnews

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:09 AM

The OP meant zone starts, not QoC.


The claim about the Sedins wasn't made by the OP - it regarded them being "sheltered" - QofC is as much of a factor in "sheltering" as ozone starts is.
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#49 oldnews

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:14 AM

Uh-huh. Let's just say the Sedins are better WITH the puck than without it. M'kay, bud?


M'kay. I see you're in a pissy mood tonight TOML. You're absolutely right - the Canucks system is designed to serve our Swedish royalty - they should be killing penalties instead, like everyone else. That would give this team a better chance of success. Gnite.
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#50 cIutch

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:18 AM

Well here's what i see the problems to be with our system:

1- The Sedins are playing sheltered minutes and they don't play defensively.

Most contenders in this post-cap era have had their stars come up with stellar defensive performances. The higher the cap, the more defensive efforts required.

So why is it that this team, a supposed cup contender, continues to not utilize the Sedins in any defensive fashion whatsoever? Meaning, why are players like even previously one-dimensional Patrick Kane can become a takeaway force but the Sedins cannot do anything defensively but hook a guy?

This is a coaching problem, imho. While it's okay to have a few one-dimensional guys on your 'cup contending' team, those guys CANNOT be your stars. They eat the most minutes. They are relied on more than any other players. So they CANNOT be useless defensively. Yet, our team allows this to continue, year after year. We won't win with that approach until the rules change to promote offense again.

2 - Related to 1, why is it that most teams use their stars to PK, ours does not? Our PK is currently awful. Why? Because our good players aren't doing it. Instead, Dale Weise is. Dale Weise? Please...

If the Sedins want to lead this team to glory then it's time for them to put on the big boy pants. Again, they don't play defensively well. But Patrick Kane does? Not until the coaching freakin' makes it happen.

3 - Related to 1 and 2. Why does Ryan Kesler get ALL the hard minutes? The result is plain as day: He gets hurt ALL the time now. Spread out the difficult minutes and watch our good players be hurt less.

4 - We give our defense a green light to jump up in the play while not one of them is a speedster. You know what happens from that as we've seen it time and time again against the Hawks: Breakaways and odd-man rushes against, totally exposing our $9mil elite goaltending, making them worthless.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that our defenders should NOT be given the green light all the time. This team is not fast enough for it. Rather, our defense is built for collapsing and making it incredibly difficult for guys to score on our $9mil elite goaltending.

If we're paying $9mil for our goalies, then make them look good.

4 - This teams' corsi beyond the one-dimensional Sedins is BRUTAL. This has always been a problem because none of the non-Sedin guys see any light at the end of the tunnel in terms of opportunity. It's hard to get up for games when you see the Sedins get treated like royalty, no matter how many times they coast back on the backcheck while you're destroying yourself every shift starting in your own zone with junk linemates.

Our 4th line NEVER starts in the O zone. So how in the hell are they going to bang guys up the ice? They're not fast enough. The most they can hope for is getting the puck out of the zone and then changing, exhausted. And this is done purposely. No wonder Kesler has to play so much.


Overall, this approach got the Sedins easy points for awhile, but since Ehrhoff went away, those points are getting harder to come by. Basically, it's a sinch to shut them down if your team has more than one defensively-capable line.

I believe that with the proper instruction and direction, the Sedins are of course capable of playing more difficult minutes. The can lead this team to glory. They are superstars. But right now we're SQUANDERING them.

No, the solutions aren't instant or easy, but until we start moving in this direction, we won't go anywhere in the playoffs.

Nobody cares about puff points against weak opposition anymore. Like i said, it's big boy pants time.

Get r done, AV. Or you're inevitably toast.

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#51 Merci

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:25 AM

Won't win the cup till we trade Luongo Raymond and Schroder for Huberdeau straight up.
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Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

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#52 oldnews

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:39 AM

Anybody ever take the time to think that our system takes a while to get assimilated into because the players being assimilated are coming from crap teams where they clearly aren't coached well/playing in a good system?

Interesting how Samuellson came from Det, similar system, integrated immediately and had his best year as a pro on this team?

Stop the whining and think deeper folks. Our bad system, as I repeat ad nauseaum has got us

2 pres trophies in a row
A scf appearance
2 mvps
1 selke
1 jennings pair

hmm..

wow...guess those players did that all in spite of the bad system we have.


I don't think a team like Florida has a crap system, but I would agree that players in Vancouver do benefit from the depth of players they play with and a system that helps make them successful. A player like Ehrhoff, who gets so much credit for the Sedins success, goes to Buffalo and follows up a pair of 14 goal seasons here with 5 there.
This year Ehrhoff (again) is being outscored by Edler and Hamhius - whom I suppose are the new sources of the Sedin's success...
Meanwhile the Sedins are still point a game players without Ehrhoff...(and improving their play in their own end). :bigblush:

The Canucks system allows it's blueline to put up some impressive numbers - and it's second line, and it's third line. Hansen and Higgins combined for 82 points on the third line. The fourth line does sacrifice production to play a dzone start shutdown role, but that is their job, and it's a pretty goddamn good one. Who cares about their numbers - most of us realize their value despite their relative corsi, points and +/- numbers.
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#53 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:57 AM

Hey folks, im a long time lurker & first time poster. I just want to bring an issue to the forefront many of you may never have thought of as an issue before. Im talking about AV's system of play which seems to take every player we've acquired a lot of time to adjust too.

It seems like an endless cycle. We don't win the cup, we look to address our weaknesses, we acquire an impact player (like garrison), he doesn't make an impact & we hear that he's still getting "assimilated with our system. At this rate we won't win the cup because everytime we fail, we'll look to address our weaknesses. We just can't afford to wait a year for every player we acquire to get used to our system of play.

Though AV's style of play has got us some success, I think we'll all agree that some just isn't enough. We want the cup. And if that means changing our system to make new players comfortable & contributing right away then so be it. In my opinion, I'd love a free-wheeling system like Philidelphia's. Everyone they acquire seems to come & have success right away. And with our goaltending compared to theirs, we'd be potentially lethal.

On an end note, I'm happy for Ballard who after almost 2years has finally got in sync with AV's system. That is all. Discuss.


Great post, the last line is kinda ironic though, since AV then later scratched Ballard.

Sedin's are an issue but noone wants to admit it because they are such great guys in the community :rolleyes:


No they aren't an issue. Not at all, not even close. Sorry. Try again.

80% offensive zone starts = sheltered, bud.

NOBODY else in the league gets that royal treatment.


It's not really sheltered in this case, its more of putting them in the right positions to succeed.

Those starts still come against top pairs, and top centers. So really its not sheltered.

And I don't think we should use them on the PK, because:

- We have better PK guys
- We don't need them to get hurt blocking shots, they carry this team and losing them to injury would be extremely devastating.
- (**most importantly**) Because we always use them right after the PK. In otherwords, right after teams top lines and top players have already been on the ice for a long time in a big situation, so they are fresh and they usually go out and it gives us a good match-up, really it is one of the very few good things this coaching staff does.

Won't win the cup till we trade Luongo Raymond and Schroder for Huberdeau straight up.


:lol:

1. FLA doesn't accept
2. That's not the key to us winning the cup this season

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 03 March 2013 - 12:57 AM.

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#54 Pineapples

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:06 AM

We could have the greatest system in the world, but it won't be enough. There will always be goons that try to injure our players, with no punishment of course.

Also the fact that we'll never have decent officiating in the playoffs.

People laugh at the thought of games being rigged. Well, they clearly are.
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#55 dirk diggler

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 09:05 AM

Canucks will never win the cup with the Sedins or Luongo....or AV.
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#56 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 09:58 AM

Our PK currently stinks. That will cost us a playoff round advance as-is. So getting Henrik to take on that duty again only makes sense. At least when compared to watching this team be lit up over and over again while Henrik takes a nap on the bench.

We came to this conclusion during our first meeting with Doughty-era Kings. Henrik pretty much had to say, 'Hey coach... Wtf?' though. AV isn't exactly brilliant as he is random with regard to lineup changes.


The other dodged point is that the Sedins aren't defensive stars. They are good with the puck, but not so much without it. Their example of a defensive play is taking a hooking penalty and we saw that in the first :15 in this past LA game.

If the Sedins are ultimately going to succeed in bringing a cup here, they will NEED to learn the art of the takeaway.

They are fully capable of it. They are fast enough. They are skilled enough. They are strong enough. So why haven't they done it?!? What makes them different from other offensive guys like Datsyuk, Toews and Kane (Kane?!?) so much that they cannot perform takeaways while those guys can.

This skill is learned, not bred. And the Sedins need to learn it now or they will ultimately never succeed in getting this team a cup, as their minutes will need to be sheltered through O zone starts and AV line matching to make sure they aren't shut down yet again.

Elite players should be elite in every regard.

M'kay. I see you're in a pissy mood tonight TOML. You're absolutely right - the Canucks system is designed to serve our Swedish royalty - they should be killing penalties instead, like everyone else. That would give this team a better chance of success. Gnite.


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#57 Scottish⑦Canuck

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:02 AM

Doesn't explain the Chicago series when our guys were all healthy and gave up a 3-0 lead only to hang on by a thread and move on. Chicago adjusted and,as Toews said, "exposed" the Nucks and took over the series. Close to being one of the biggest melt-downs in SC history.


The important thing is that it wasn't though. So why does it matter? We got the job done.
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#58 dirk diggler

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:05 AM

AV isn't exactly brilliant as he is random with regard to lineup changes.


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#59 oldnews

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:30 PM

Our PK currently stinks. That will cost us a playoff round advance as-is. So getting Henrik to take on that duty again only makes sense. At least when compared to watching this team be lit up over and over again while Henrik takes a nap on the bench.

We came to this conclusion during our first meeting with Doughty-era Kings. Henrik pretty much had to say, 'Hey coach... Wtf?' though. AV isn't exactly brilliant as he is random with regard to lineup changes.


The other dodged point is that the Sedins aren't defensive stars. They are good with the puck, but not so much without it. Their example of a defensive play is taking a hooking penalty and we saw that in the first :15 in this past LA game.

If the Sedins are ultimately going to succeed in bringing a cup here, they will NEED to learn the art of the takeaway.

They are fully capable of it. They are fast enough. They are skilled enough. They are strong enough. So why haven't they done it?!? What makes them different from other offensive guys like Datsyuk, Toews and Kane (Kane?!?) so much that they cannot perform takeaways while those guys can.

This skill is learned, not bred. And the Sedins need to learn it now or they will ultimately never succeed in getting this team a cup, as their minutes will need to be sheltered through O zone starts and AV line matching to make sure they aren't shut down yet again.

Elite players should be elite in every regard.


Something tells me we aren't going to arrive at an agreement on this.
The Sedins aren't Yzerman types - I think they have steadily improved their defensive play (they get pinned in their own end far less frequently than in the past), but they aren't prototypical two way players and probably never will be. I do see steady signs of improvement, but really, penalty killing etc are not what is expected of them, nor should it be.
I also can't agree with the idea that the Canucks penalty killing needs an injection of Sedins - if in one sentence you are maintaining that they're not great defensive players, why in the next are you insisting they should be killing penalties? The Canucks have some gd good penalty killing forwards - Burrows, Hansen, Higgins, Kesler, Lapierre - all excellent penalty killers who are more suited to the role. The Canucks have a wealth of two way players, part of which makes the team so successful imo, they have a few shutdown role forwards, and a couple point a game twins whose job is not to kill penalties.

When it comes to takeaways, they're pretty damn good actually - I think their defensive play is more of a grind/grit issue - their steals may primarily take place in the opposition end because that's generally where play winds up being when they're on the ice, but I think they hold their own in the takeaway category.
I'm sure we'd all love it if the Sedins were like Steve Yzerman, but I'm not sure what your point is in comparing them negatively to a player like Patrick Kane. Kane is a terrible hockey player without the puck on his stick imo - the Sedins are far better - Kane is a kid who gets 57.5% offensive zone starts, and yet has the second worst relative corsi among regulars on the Hawks - beyond mediocre at -18.4... He's the definition of a floater - if the Sedins play without the puck was as bad as Kane's, there'd be a lot more to complain about. (Bolland, their shutdown center, understandably has low rel.corsi numbers).
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#60 puckinaround

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:42 PM

Im seeing complaints about "AVs system". When people complain about out our system Im assuming they actualy know what it is.

I look at teams with systems like the Canucks, Bruins, Wings and Kings. The Kings were obviously sticking to an amazing system that stumped every team in the league last year. Although I think it would be hard to define. I remember them forechecking very agressively and having an insane ability to threaten offensively while shorthanded.

My Question is. What is "our system"? Is it easy to define? What was LA's system?
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