Why we won't win the cup with our "system"

[Super_Canuck]

We won't win the cup 'cause the NHL won't ever let it happen. Did you guys not watch the 2011 final?? The league doesn't benefit in anyway if Van wins, they want to see the big market US teams win.

[RyanKeslord17]

Can we use Chicago's system? It seems like it's working...

[Bagofcats]

Well, then I guess it's not AV, or Gillis, or the players we've brought in. That solves it. C'mon everyone, let's just pack up and go home.

[zejono]

Dont forget that pimp of a coach philly has

[coconutsnow]

AV's system is very much like a Zone Defence you see in basketball.

It's all high percentage plays, or nothing. This is why you see some of the new guys come here end up in his "doghouse", because they aren't used to playing such a careful calculated system.

We've had success with it obviously, but there are things to be said about it with regards to stifling creativity.

How many times do we see a pretty 3 way passing play end up with a puck in the net? When it happens, it's like the Canucks Play of the Year... when on many other teams (Montreal, Boston, Pittsburgh....) you see it quite often.

It's not that the players on this team can't play that way, it's that they are coached not to.

How many points a year do you think the Sedins would rack up if they played in Edmonton?! It would be like watching the freaking Swedish Globetrotters out there.

Can we win a Cup with this system, and the players here now? We nearly did in 2011 so I have to say yes. We had some key injuries there... Kesler, Hamhuis, along with the Rome suspension.

The one thing I don't like about it is the lack of physicality. The system employs a pretty soft forecheck (easy on opposition defence), and the defence in our own zone, rather than paste someone against the boards and/or slam into them at the line, tends to try and "follow" a player around attempting to contain/limit him.

It's soft and I hate that. We've played that system for years now and the refs get used to it. Then suddenly you have a guy like Rome absolutely clock Horton and it sticks out like a sore thumb. Boom. Suspended.

I'll be interested to see what happens when Sistito starts wasting guys. Whether he ends up getting penalized every time for what would be a "normal" play for him in Philly.

The same thing happened to Alberts when he came here.

He was SMASHING guys HARD into the boards when he first arrived, and was sent off scratching his head for one boarding penalty after another... he was used to playing that way but in Vancouver, that sticks out like a hard-on in a crowded theatre and the refs know it - so the coaches tell these guys to simmer down.

Makes you wonder what the point is of the team getting "bigger and tougher", when the system/style we play doesn't allow a player to provide those things.

We'll see I guess.........

[Forsy]

Every team's "system" WILL get figured out during the course of a year (earlier if they have been in the top 4 or cup finals the previous year(s)). If you are planning your team to have an unbeatable set of techniques, you will fail no matter what. What is most important is the ability to adapt to your opponent, and being unpredictable in every way possible.

The biggest knock on AV has to be adding more unpredictability throughout their system so that teams cannot shut them down. On the other side, more adaptations (especially on defense) have to be done, so that the Canucks are able to shut down teams in a more consistent manner in the playoffs.

[CB007]

Agree with bold. Systems are made to be analyzed and overcome...think Maginot Line...lack of ability to adjust to the unforseen creates disaster adn failure.

AV's system works pretty good in the regular season where teams have to adjust daily to differnet players and sstyles but in the playoffs, where coaches put all their resources into dismantling systems and players up their energy levels to compete, an inability to adjust is deadly. i.e. 3-0 lead on Chicago, 2-0 lead on Boston. Both those teams made adjustments as to how they played the Nucks and turned the series around.

Our guys always talk about just playing their system. TIme to move on. It's old, stale and no longer effective.

[CB007]

C'mon people. Any fan knows our system would have won the cup if the majority of our starters weren't injured/suspended vs Boston. Kesler - groin

Edler - broken finger

Rome - suspended

Hamhuis - hip fracture

Bieksa - lacerated achilles tendon

Raymond - broken back

Samuelsson - groin injury

Higgins - broken toe

were all injured terribly

[CanucksJay]

Im going to have to agree in a way. It does seem to take players a full year to figure out how to play on our team which has proven alot of new players to be only partially effective, i.e. samuelsson, booth, sundin, garrison. Having said that when players do figure the system out they seem to play very well. I also think however, that our system can only go so far in the playoffs. When it works it works, but when it doesn't, it really doesnt. Teams seem to be able to figure out an answer and when they solve it, AV has no tricks up his sleeve, no variations. Remember when our whole PP drop pass thing was figured out? It worked all season but then other teams caught on and the canucks just kept trying it. Resulting in some fatal turn overs. sometimes I think our team is TOO system-based. If you have no improvisation then you are going to get stuck when teams figure out your routine.

[MANGO]

Unfortunately, our system is flop on the ice and draw a penalty. then score with a.....potient PP. We've all seen this strategy go horribly wrong in the play-offs, but work in the regular season. Nucks need to learn to win 5 on 5 and my belief is that starts with spreading the scoring out a bit and rolling 4 lines.

[SkeeterHansen]

Canucks lack passion to win the cup.

[elvis15]

[DownUndaCanuck]

We need to play the way Boston and Los Angeles did when they won the Cup. Before them, teams like Chicago and Pittsburgh were simply stacked with skill.

Boston and L.A play a simple game - depth scoring from all 4 lines up front, and no offence from the blueline. Their defences are simple, shutdown, stay-at-home defences that don't gamble, don't take stupid risks or pinches and don't allow much offence. Of course great goaltending is key, but a sound defence is far more important. They scored their goals off turnovers and opponents mistakes by rushing up the ice on odd-man rushes when opponents would pinch or make mistakes.

Opportunistic offence and good defence. In the playoffs it's all about out-lasting the opponent, breaking them down and then capitalizing on their mistakes. This is what the Canucks need to become - less of a risky defence with forwards that rely on defenders to score.

[37yrsncounting]

we've been winning for five years with offensive and defensive systems that has changed overtime under AV depending on the type of players we have. At the moment, when we played the boring lock it down style we have success. When Kesler came back, we played a more up tempo style and exposed our weakness on defence. Our D core right now can't seem to make the right decisions with the simplest of breakouts and pinches. Next to the skills that a player have, they must make the right reads and the right choices of plays. So your can say ballard and garrison has been slow to adapt to our system but its more about their hockey IQ and their ability to read the players on the team that is the issue. ie, ballard plays well with tanev because tanev makes that first pass out of the zone look easy. Ballard by himself would be more of an adventure.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Well here's what i see the problems to be with our system:

1- The Sedins are playing sheltered minutes and they don't play defensively.

Most contenders in this post-cap era have had their stars come up with stellar defensive performances. The higher the cap, the more defensive efforts required.

So why is it that this team, a supposed cup contender, continues to not utilize the Sedins in any defensive fashion whatsoever? Meaning, why are players like even previously one-dimensional Patrick Kane can become a takeaway force but the Sedins cannot do anything defensively but hook a guy?

This is a coaching problem, imho. While it's okay to have a few one-dimensional guys on your 'cup contending' team, those guys CANNOT be your stars. They eat the most minutes. They are relied on more than any other players. So they CANNOT be useless defensively. Yet, our team allows this to continue, year after year. We won't win with that approach until the rules change to promote offense again.

2 - Related to 1, why is it that most teams use their stars to PK, ours does not? Our PK is currently awful. Why? Because our good players aren't doing it. Instead, Dale Weise is. Dale Weise? Please...

If the Sedins want to lead this team to glory then it's time for them to put on the big boy pants. Again, they don't play defensively well. But Patrick Kane does? Not until the coaching freakin' makes it happen.

3 - Related to 1 and 2. Why does Ryan Kesler get ALL the hard minutes? The result is plain as day: He gets hurt ALL the time now. Spread out the difficult minutes and watch our good players be hurt less.

4 - We give our defense a green light to jump up in the play while not one of them is a speedster. You know what happens from that as we've seen it time and time again against the Hawks: Breakaways and odd-man rushes against, totally exposing our $9mil elite goaltending, making them worthless.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that our defenders should NOT be given the green light all the time. This team is not fast enough for it. Rather, our defense is built for collapsing and making it incredibly difficult for guys to score on our $9mil elite goaltending.

If we're paying $9mil for our goalies, then make them look good.

4 - This teams' corsi beyond the one-dimensional Sedins is BRUTAL. This has always been a problem because none of the non-Sedin guys see any light at the end of the tunnel in terms of opportunity. It's hard to get up for games when you see the Sedins get treated like royalty, no matter how many times they coast back on the backcheck while you're destroying yourself every shift starting in your own zone with junk linemates.

Our 4th line NEVER starts in the O zone. So how in the hell are they going to bang guys up the ice? They're not fast enough. The most they can hope for is getting the puck out of the zone and then changing, exhausted. And this is done purposely. No wonder Kesler has to play so much.

Overall, this approach got the Sedins easy points for awhile, but since Ehrhoff went away, those points are getting harder to come by. Basically, it's a sinch to shut them down if your team has more than one defensively-capable line.

I believe that with the proper instruction and direction, the Sedins are of course capable of playing more difficult minutes. The can lead this team to glory. They are superstars. But right now we're SQUANDERING them.

No, the solutions aren't instant or easy, but until we start moving in this direction, we won't go anywhere in the playoffs.

Nobody cares about puff points against weak opposition anymore. Like i said, it's big boy pants time.

Get r done, AV. Or you're inevitably toast.

[Dancin'Droid]

Well here's what i see the problems to be with our system:

1- The Sedins are playing sheltered minutes and they don't play defensively.

Most contenders in this post-cap era have had their stars come up with stellar defensive performances. The higher the cap, the more defensive efforts required.

So why is it that this team, a supposed cup contender, continues to not utilize the Sedins in any defensive fashion whatsoever? Meaning, why are players like even previously one-dimensional Patrick Kane can become a takeaway force but the Sedins cannot do anything defensively but hook a guy?

This is a coaching problem, imho. While it's okay to have a few one-dimensional guys on your 'cup contending' team, those guys CANNOT be your stars. They eat the most minutes. They are relied on more than any other players. So they CANNOT be useless defensively. Yet, our team allows this to continue, year after year. We won't win with that approach until the rules change to promote offense again.

2 - Related to 1, why is it that most teams use their stars to PK, ours does not? Our PK is currently awful. Why? Because our good players aren't doing it. Instead, Dale Weise is. Dale Weise? Please...

If the Sedins want to lead this team to glory then it's time for them to put on the big boy pants. Again, they don't play defensively well. But Patrick Kane does? Not until the coaching freakin' makes it happen.

3 - Related to 1 and 2. Why does Ryan Kesler get ALL the hard minutes? The result is plain as day: He gets hurt ALL the time now. Spread out the difficult minutes and watch our good players be hurt less.

4 - We give our defense a green light to jump up in the play while not one of them is a speedster. You know what happens from that as we've seen it time and time again against the Hawks: Breakaways and odd-man rushes against, totally exposing our $9mil elite goaltending, making them worthless.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that our defenders should NOT be given the green light all the time. This team is not fast enough for it. Rather, our defense is built for collapsing and making it incredibly difficult for guys to score on our $9mil elite goaltending.

If we're paying $9mil for our goalies, then make them look good.

4 - This teams' corsi beyond the one-dimensional Sedins is BRUTAL. This has always been a problem because none of the non-Sedin guys see any light at the end of the tunnel in terms of opportunity. It's hard to get up for games when you see the Sedins get treated like royalty, no matter how many times they coast back on the backcheck while you're destroying yourself every shift starting in your own zone with junk linemates.

Our 4th line NEVER starts in the O zone. So how in the hell are they going to bang guys up the ice? They're not fast enough. The most they can hope for is getting the puck out of the zone and then changing, exhausted. And this is done purposely. No wonder Kesler has to play so much.

Overall, this approach got the Sedins easy points for awhile, but since Ehrhoff went away, those points are getting harder to come by. Basically, it's a sinch to shut them down if your team has more than one defensively-capable line.

I believe that with the proper instruction and direction, the Sedins are of course capable of playing more difficult minutes. The can lead this team to glory. They are superstars. But right now we're SQUANDERING them.

No, the solutions aren't instant or easy, but until we start moving in this direction, we won't go anywhere in the playoffs.

Nobody cares about puff points against weak opposition anymore. Like i said, it's big boy pants time.

Get r done, AV. Or you're inevitably toast.

[oldnews]

Well here's what i see the problems to be with our system:

1- The Sedins are playing sheltered minutes and they don't play defensively.

[37yrsncounting]

I always thought the reason the sedins don't play the pk is because AV is trying to find the right matchup

often, the best D pairs on the other team would be on the power play. By playing the sedins afterwards, they play against weaker D pairs on the opposing team.

I agree they would be good penalty killers but it would be wasting 45 seconds of a offfensive shift after the penalty kill

[dirk diggler]

Sedin's are an issue but noone wants to admit it because they are such great guys in the community

[TOMapleLaughs]

80% offensive zone starts = sheltered, bud.

NOBODY else in the league gets that royal treatment.

Ok - I couldn't read past this claim, which doesn't seem to grasp the concept of "sheltered".

The only player on the Canucks roster who faces a higher quality of competition that the Sedins is Alex Burrows.

There is nothing "sheltered" about the Sedins minutes - in fact, AV regularly and willingly matches them up against the opponent's top lines, and scarcely bothers to avoid particular d-pairings.

The only tailored aspect of their game is, given the fact they are probably the best cycling dynamoes in the NHL, they are used primarily for offensive zone starts - which makes perfect sense. Teams generally don't use their offensive, puck moving defensemen in a shutdown/pk role - unless they are that rare breed of outstanding two-way playe, it just makes no sense - nor does the idea of using the Sedins to kill penalities (let alone risk injury) or for defensive zone starts, except where absolutely necessary. It's an unnecessary risk, it's a waste of their energy, and it doesn't use them to their greatest strengths. That would be terrible coaching imo to do so.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the OP and the vast majority of people here criticizing the Canucks' "system" don't have a particularly solid grasp of systems in the first place. There are few teams in the NHL who matchup imo, and Philly is definitely not one of them.