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Ballard's agent to talk to management


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#271 Melons

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:51 PM

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Man its all there in NHL stats, just look dammit jeez,

plus Garrison/Edler/Bieksa/Hammhuis even Tanev are more effective PP players.


5 players with more upside on the PP, so who would you sit genius? It has to make sense other then Give Ballard some experimentation time because he is your man crush..


Please quantify "more effective PP players." Ballard, brought here because of his offensive upside, has had less than 30 minutes of PP time in 3 years (6 mins 32 secs this season). Edler has had just under 90 minutes this year alone (2 goals). Hamhuis 57:33, no goals. Garrison, 52:12, no goals. I'm not a believer in goals/points telling the whole story so I'd like your take on what makes the other 5 D more effective PP players and how you think Ballard's sample size tells us the story.

What I'm hearing a lot of in this thread is that Ballard never got a fair shake and has never being used properly. The GM gets the players, the coach should be maximizing their abilities. I hope Keith gets moved somewhere that will appreciate him.
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#272 garthsbutcher

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:53 PM

Im guessing if his name was Francois Ballard he might be still in the lineup
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#273 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:54 PM

And I apologize for that, I think it's easier than seeing 3-4 posts from someone in a row. I just use Ctrl-F to search for 'elvis' in the page somewhere unless I actually read through. Here's a separate one for you though.


Don't change on account of me. I just find that with guys like you who are verbose in their responses (like I am) and who present their evidence (like I try to do) I like to give the courtesy of a suitable reply rather than a one liner. I find that tough with the way multi-quotes are handled on this board.

I can agree to disagree with you about Ballard though. If he does get traded and goes on to become anywhere close to what he was before he came to Van then really only one conclusion can be made.
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#274 Trebreh

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:54 PM

I dont have anything against Ballard, but he should go so we can spend that money on a more useful player in our top 6.

look at Chicago's defence outside of Keith/Seabrook/Hjalmarsson

Oduya - Waived by the Jets
Brookbank - Anaheim didnt re-sign him
Roszival - Old and slow
Leddy = Tanev

They dont have much depth in their D, but they make up for it with elite top 6 forwards (Kane,Toews,Sharp,Hossa) Then they got Stalberg, Frolik, Shaw, Bolland as complimentary players.

our 2nd line has no chemisty and all 3 (Booth - Kesler - Kassian) are powerforwards who cant pass.

We have some really good pieces like Higgins and Hansen on the 3rd line, but our 2nd line wingers are questionable.

So Ballard and Luongo needs to go to fix those areas.
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#275 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:54 PM

Im guessing if his name was Francois Ballard he might be still in the lineup


He should change his number to 29 and put on a Rome mask.
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#276 canuck73_3

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:55 PM

Don't change on account of me. I just find that with guys like you who are verbose in their responses (like I am) and who present their evidence (like I try to do) I like to give the courtesy of a suitable reply rather than a one liner. I find that tough with the way multi-quotes are handled on this board.

I can agree to disagree with you about Ballard though. If he does get traded and goes on to become anywhere close to what he was before he came to Van then really only one conclusion can be made.


And if he stays the same will you give AV credit for being even just a little bit right on this situation?
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#277 elvis15

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:55 PM

Spreading the ice-time around in a shortened season makes sense. It isn't a penalty to one player to give another a different look depending on your opponent. i wasn't bothered by Ballard sitting against LA but 2 games in a row makes zero sense based on play. Ballard doesn't deserve to be benched based on his play. If you want to cycle the other 7/8 guys in then great but it is being handled poorly IMO.

You can save each other player 30 seconds here and there to provide your other players a chance and a look. Incentive.

I've not argued that Ballard shouldn't bear some responsibility when he is playing poorly. I am holding the coaching staff to account for not rewarding him when he plays well.

And I agree. The 3rd pairing has more minutes this year than any other and they've reduced the top 4 accordingly. That would seem like a reward for he and Tanev doing so well together this year. When I checked earlier in the year, the top 4 guys were getting about a minute less than normal and Ballard and Tanev were getting closer to 2 minutes more. That's gone back slightly more to how it was since they've changed around the pairings, but not a lot.

They are spreading around the minutes, but it's harder to do that on the PP: "Ok, you guys have to come off even though you're controlling the puck exclusively in their end since we don't want to wear you out."

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Don't change on account of me. I just find that with guys like you who are verbose in their responses (like I am) and who present their evidence (like I try to do) I like to give the courtesy of a suitable reply rather than a one liner. I find that tough with the way multi-quotes are handled on this board.

I can agree to disagree with you about Ballard though. If he does get traded and goes on to become anywhere close to what he was before he came to Van then really only one conclusion can be made.

Absolutely, and the inverse is also true (factoring in of course all the variables about his new situation and all that).

Edited by elvis15, 04 March 2013 - 04:57 PM.

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#278 Squeak

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:56 PM

I dont have anything against Ballard, but he should go so we can spend that money on a more useful player in our top 6.

look at Chicago's defence outside of Keith/Seabrook/Hjalmarsson

Oduya - Waived by the Jets
Brookbank - Anaheim didnt re-sign him
Roszival - Old and slow
Leddy = Tanev

They dont have much depth in their D, but they make up for it with elite top 6 forwards (Kane,Toews,Sharp,Hossa) Then they got Stalberg, Frolik, Shaw, Bolland as complimentary players.

our 2nd line has no chemisty and all 3 (Booth - Kesler - Kassian) are powerforwards who cant pass.

We have some really good pieces like Higgins and Hansen on the 3rd line, but our 2nd line wingers are questionable.

So Ballard and Luongo needs to go to fix those areas.


huh?

if you mean traded for a 2nd AND a 3rd round pick.......


Leddy= Tanev............................................Leddy had 37 points last season, Tanev has 7 in his career....................

Edited by Squeak, 04 March 2013 - 04:57 PM.

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#279 Mighty Walrus

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:57 PM

.
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#280 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:57 PM

I dont have anything against Ballard, but he should go so we can spend that money on a more useful player in our top 6.

look at Chicago's defence outside of Keith/Seabrook/Hjalmarsson

Oduya - Waived by the Jets
Brookbank - Anaheim didnt re-sign him
Roszival - Old and slow
Leddy = Tanev

They dont have much depth in their D, but they make up for it with elite top 6 forwards (Kane,Toews,Sharp,Hossa) Then they got Stalberg, Frolik, Shaw, Bolland as complimentary players.

our 2nd line has no chemisty and all 3 (Booth - Kesler - Kassian) are powerforwards who cant pass.

We have some really good pieces like Higgins and Hansen on the 3rd line, but our 2nd line wingers are questionable.

So Ballard and Luongo needs to go to fix those areas.


The difference is chemistry and the coach using those players to maximum advantage based on their strengths.

CDC wishes that Tanev = Leddy.

Oduya fit in seamlessly to the way CHI plays and guess what? He is a player very similar to Ballard......he and Hjalmarsson has been great for the Hawks this season.

The Hawks have EVERYONE playing with confidence right now. They don't care who helps them succeed like our team does. AV would rather lose with Bieksa and Edler than win with anyone else. And lost we have come playoff time based on that.
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#281 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:58 PM

And if he stays the same will you give AV credit for being even just a little bit right on this situation?


And a little bit of responsibility for destroying his confidence which I don't think anyone can deny. Give him time with a new team to get that back and then we can talk.

Ballard still has all the skills. He is just not allowed to use them without getting scratched. Based on how he played before it is obvious he has been told not to rush the puck and to not make any mistakes defensively.

Edited by wallstreetamigo, 04 March 2013 - 05:00 PM.

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#282 UFTcan

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:02 PM

Please quantify "more effective PP players." Ballard, brought here because of his offensive upside, has had less than 30 minutes of PP time in 3 years (6 mins 32 secs this season). Edler has had just under 90 minutes this year alone (2 goals). Hamhuis 57:33, no goals. Garrison, 52:12, no goals. I'm not a believer in goals/points telling the whole story so I'd like your take on what makes the other 5 D more effective PP players and how you think Ballard's sample size tells us the story.

What I'm hearing a lot of in this thread is that Ballard never got a fair shake and has never being used properly. The GM gets the players, the coach should be maximizing their abilities. I hope Keith gets moved somewhere that will appreciate him.


Garrison/Edler/Bieksa even Tanev all have huge shots on the PP, and Hammhuis quarterbacks decently well, great pass and enough situational awareness to not get burned.


You forget Ballard was brought here as a VETERAN OFFENSIVE defenceman, thats suppose to be his specialty. Unfortunatly we have 5 guys better at it then he is. I also remember them using him last year and he was god awful at it.
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#283 canuck73_3

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:03 PM

And a little bit of responsibility for destroying his confidence which I don't think anyone can deny. Give him time with a new team to get that back and then we can talk.


I have always had the belief of the cream rises to the top, look at Burrows and Hansen for example both had limited roles to start with improved and earned their ice time. Ballard has shown really nothing to warrant the ice time people here are calling for. limited ice time or not he's had very few games where he's been above average or better. And I'm not discrediting Ballard he has had injury issues which have also hurt him getting into a rhythm as well.

But you really honestly can't blame that all on the coach Ballard is responsible for his performance.
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#284 theminister

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:05 PM

And I agree. The 3rd pairing has more minutes this year than any other and they've reduced the top 4 accordingly. That would seem like a reward for he and Tanev doing so well together this year. When I checked earlier in the year, the top 4 guys were getting about a minute less than normal and Ballard and Tanev were getting closer to 2 minutes more. That's gone back slightly more to how it was since they've changed around the pairings, but not a lot.

They are spreading around the minutes, but it's harder to do that on the PP: "Ok, you guys have to come off even though you're controlling the puck exclusively in their end since we don't want to wear you out."

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.


How is that harder?

Especially when you have two 1st unit PP in a row that fail to gain the zone? Because that's what we've been seeing the last half dozen games.

It's actually very easy. It's a tap on the shoulder. The only reason it would be difficult is if the coaching staff doesn't put everyone through the same drills.

Edited by theminister, 04 March 2013 - 05:06 PM.

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#285 BedBeats™2.0

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:05 PM

Ballard + to the wings or blues for Filppula or Perron


Your posts have been insightful, and thoughtful.

And if i was a betting man...i am guessing the Canucks will have a new center, or 2 by the trade deadline.
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#286 hockeyiscool

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:06 PM

To the people complaining why AV scratched Ballard it was the right call. You have to give some of our depth guys Alberts, Barker, etc some games. Do you expect the team to go into the playoffs with their depth guys only playing a few games and not being ready for the playoffs.
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#287 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:07 PM

Ballard to St.Louis for Sobotka and Redden/Russel. (Preferably Redden)

The D-man replaces Ballard and Sobotka is the 3rd line center we need.


Or else Ballard for Visnovsky.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 04 March 2013 - 05:07 PM.

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#288 Provost

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:07 PM

Ah, but if the Sedins have to play 4th line because you have other lines consisting of players as good as Gretzky, Crosby, Stamkos, Lemieux, Francis, Yzerman, Sakic, etc. all ahead of them in the lineup, is that the coaches fault? Do you blame the management for assembling a team with so much depth that someone who could do better with the right minutes happens to be behind others who do even better in those same minutes?

There's nothing really to suggest Ballard is better than the top 4 we do have, certainly not Hamhuis and Edler, offensively to deserve the minutes those other D get.


As I said in the post you quoted. If there isn't a spot for him, then you move him. Right now the team considers him to be the 5th or 6th best LD that we have (he is playing behind Hamhuis, Edler, Garrison, Alberts, Barker).

Also, I think many people would say that he has outplayed both Edler and Garrison this year as a whole
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#289 canuck73_3

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:08 PM

Ballard to St.Louis for Sobotka and Redden/Russel. (Preferably Redden)

The D-man replaces Ballard and Sobotka is the 3rd line center we need.


Or else Ballard for Visnovsky.


Sadly Ballard won't fetch us that high of a return we might be able to get one of Sobotka or Redden but not both.
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RIP Luc Bourdon

#290 Kakanucks

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:10 PM

dunno if others see this during game play, but ballard and his partner never really gets offensive zone shifts, how many times have we seen ballard and partner rush the puck out into the o zone and see that by the time the forwards start setting up and pass to the blueline the top 4 has come on to play

so to those saying that ballard doesn't produce, do u expect him to go end to end and score on his own? or are you expecting him to do that from the bench?

as for everyone getting pissed off at av, it's fine if you want to look at our 7/8 dmen, but don't spew garbage about how they give u a better chance to win to justifying ballard being a healthy scratch, it makes you look like a fool

i hope ballard gets traded, he deserves better, and what makes everyone think the player we get back won't get treated the same way by av??
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#291 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:13 PM

I have always had the belief of the cream rises to the top, look at Burrows and Hansen for example both had limited roles to start with improved and earned their ice time. Ballard has shown really nothing to warrant the ice time people here are calling for. limited ice time or not he's had very few games where he's been above average or better. And I'm not discrediting Ballard he has had injury issues which have also hurt him getting into a rhythm as well.

But you really honestly can't blame that all on the coach Ballard is responsible for his performance.


Hansen and Burrows played limited roles, they were never in the doghouse. Burrows got lucky that AV threw him out for a shift and he clicked with the Twins.

Ballard is a far better player than we have seen, AV isn't using him to his capabilities at all, I can't wait till he goes somewhere else and continues to build upon the solid play we saw this season, then we can all look back and realize we had the opportunity to make him a real effective player here.

But for some reason AV just wouldn't quit. And yes he is biased against Ballard, its clear, crystal clear.
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#292 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:14 PM

Sadly Ballard won't fetch us that high of a return we might be able to get one of Sobotka or Redden but not both.


Redden isn't that good, a bottom pair or depth guy, has already been scratched a few times, and Sobotka (judging by what guys like Ellerby, Loktionov, exc) went for, isn't exactly loaded with value either, especially since he is a 4th liner when they are healthy.
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#293 CanucksJay

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:15 PM

Hansen and Burrows played limited roles, they were never in the doghouse. Burrows got lucky that AV threw him out for a shift and he clicked with the Twins.

Ballard is a far better player than we have seen, AV isn't using him to his capabilities at all, I can't wait till he goes somewhere else and continues to build upon the solid play we saw this season, then we can all look back and realize we had the opportunity to make him a real effective player here.

But for some reason AV just wouldn't quit. And yes he is biased against Ballard, its clear, crystal clear.


I don't see how any objective person can see or understand dressing Alberts and Barker over Ballard. (Especially from his play this year)
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#294 MoneypuckOverlord

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:17 PM

Why not trade Ballard for Komisarek (and a pick)? If we're going to buy Ballard out (at the end of the year), not play him, get no serious interest in him, and he demands a trade, we may as well get something for him. We can buy-out Komisarek at the end of the year, so cap is not a problem. Now if there is interest, we could trade for something else...


why not? Why do it? Komisarek is a f in pylon that even Leafs fans no longer want. Why the hell would we want him?
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Players Nikolaj Ehlers have been compared too by the fan base of the Vancouver Canucks.

 

1 Pavel Bure

2 Markus Naslund

3 Nathan Mackkinon

4 Jonathan Drouin.

5 Jonathan Tavares

 

http://bleacherrepor...d-top-prospects

combine results.  Ehlers 5'11 162 lbs of solid rock.  


#295 canuck73_3

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:17 PM

Redden isn't that good, a bottom pair or depth guy, has already been scratched a few times, and Sobotka (judging by what guys like Ellerby, Loktionov, exc) went for, isn't exactly loaded with value either, especially since he is a 4th liner when they are healthy.


The point of a trade is to try to improve your team now or the future Redden isn't an improvement, Sobotka yes, but Ballard for Redden is redundant.
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#296 CanucksJay

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:18 PM

We should have just taken Luke Schenn for Lu. AV would have loved him and probably gotten better use out of him
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#297 MikeyBoy44

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:19 PM

I think everyone is looking at this in the wrong light, we should be be pretty thankful that we can scratch Ballard while we have Bieksa injured, to me this is a great sign as to the depth of the Canuck's blueline.


You can't post that here! You wanna get banned? Lay low man, lay low :)
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#298 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:22 PM

I have always had the belief of the cream rises to the top, look at Burrows and Hansen for example both had limited roles to start with improved and earned their ice time. Ballard has shown really nothing to warrant the ice time people here are calling for. limited ice time or not he's had very few games where he's been above average or better. And I'm not discrediting Ballard he has had injury issues which have also hurt him getting into a rhythm as well.

But you really honestly can't blame that all on the coach Ballard is responsible for his performance.


Was Burrows the cream when he went undrafted and was playing in the ECHL? He was given an opportunity...one that he did something with for sure, but players still need an opportunity.

Hansen gets prime offensive time as well now and when he didn't was a defensive plug that did not add much offense at all. Did he earn it? For sure.....but ultimately he had the ability to earn it because he was given an opportunity to do so.

The fact is that Ballard became forgotten in the grand scheme of things the minute Hamhuis signed and never received a fair chance even during the times where other players have been injured or really struggled.

I think destroying a player like that rather than trading him after the first year of that BS will ultimately hurt the Canucks come free agent time......they get the guys who already want to come to Va, but they lose out on guys who they have to convince, like Shultz. You don't think he looked at the coaching situation and said, "Forget that"?
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#299 Watermelons

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:22 PM

Ballard is a far better player than we have seen, AV isn't using him to his capabilities at all, I can't wait till he goes somewhere else and continues to build upon the solid play we saw this season, then we can all look back and realize we had the opportunity to make him a real effective player here.


Exactly. AV isn't allowing Ballard to play the way he excelled at. Before coming here, Ballard's style of play was a lot more offensive and involved rushing up the ice. (Similar to Ehrhoff maybe?) But after coming to Vancouver he hasn't been used in that capacity and instead was used mainly as a defensive defenseman.

Also, Ballard plays very well with Tanev but for some reason AV broke them up in the middle of the season. (Yes I know he needed to get the other pairings going but honestly wouldn't it be better to have one good pairing that works well rather than having 3 pairings that can't play well?..AV never broke up Bieksa and Hamhuis in the previous two seasons even when the other pairings weren't working)
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#300 theminister

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:27 PM

dunno if others see this during game play, but ballard and his partner never really gets offensive zone shifts, how many times have we seen ballard and partner rush the puck out into the o zone and see that by the time the forwards start setting up and pass to the blueline the top 4 has come on to play

so to those saying that ballard doesn't produce, do u expect him to go end to end and score on his own? or are you expecting him to do that from the bench?

as for everyone getting pissed off at av, it's fine if you want to look at our 7/8 dmen, but don't spew garbage about how they give u a better chance to win to justifying ballard being a healthy scratch, it makes you look like a fool

i hope ballard gets traded, he deserves better, and what makes everyone think the player we get back won't get treated the same way by av??


Ballard certainly gets the least 5on5 off zone starts of any of the top 6.

He's only had 3 off zone starts on the PP all season and all came in the dying seconds.
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