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Mark Messier overrated?


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#1 whcanuck

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:19 PM

Hi Guys

I wanted to get your thoughts on something, I know that most Canucks fans, including myself, have no use for Mark Messier, on or off the ice. I did not care for the guy at all. However, I want to discuss whether or not you think he's one of the most overrated players of all time.

I know he's won 6 Stanley Cups and various impressive individual honors, and was a very good hockey player, that cannot be understated. However, I feel that most sportswriters, fans and media-alike point to the 1994 Stanley Cup, which I felt Vancouver should have won, as the defining moment of his abilities as the so-called greatest leader n professional sports history. The guaranteed win in game 6 against the Devils? Newspapers don't put the speaker's tone in the quote, so we have no idea how he actually said those words, but they sell newspapers and get everybody talking. To me a great hockey player is so much more than goals and assists, it's doing whatever you can to help your team. To me, Trevor Linden, Joe Sakic or Steve Yzerman are quintessential leaders, they don't yell or point fingers or act immaturely to make a point to their teammates. They do it with actions, quetly, honestly and respectfully. Messier was a dirty player I always thought and gets far too much credit for that 94 Rangers team's success. Was he a big part of it? Of course, one of the frontrunners, but to say that he orchestrated the whole thing is ridiculous.

If he was such an incredible leader? Why were the Canucks teams that he played with for 3 years so bad? No playoff appearances, nothing. The reason why the Rangers were good in 94 and the Oilers were good in the 80s, were because they had lots of good players, Mark Messier was just one of them. He also got into a lot of trouble off the ice and was not a good role model. Linden, Yzerman and Sakic are all upstanding citizens who played the right way on the ice, and acted unselfishly off it. Now some will say, Linden did not win a Stanley Cup and Mark Messier won 6, well I will say this, I'd rather have 1 Trevor Linden on my team, than 15 Mark Messiers. Linden's stats do not come close to Messier, but again, Linden is the type of guy I'd want on my team. Messier was a great player in his prime, but to assert that he's the greatest leader in professional sports, I'm just not buying it.

Edited by whcanuck, 05 March 2013 - 04:19 PM.

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#2 Langdon Algur

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:26 PM

The dude has the second highest amount of points ever next to Gretz, no I don't think he's over rated.
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#3 canuck73_3

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:07 PM

He's not overrated but for 3 years he spent here he greatly underwhelmed.
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#4 rb4u

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:07 PM

Yes. He would be less so of a "leader" without his cheap shot flying elbows...
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#5 MayRayDown

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:12 PM

2nd best in points and hated by Canuck fans. Doesn't seem overrated
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#6 Goal:thecup

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:22 PM

I agree that "the greatest leader in pro sports" (The GLIPS) thing is incorrect.

I know next to nothing about soccer but with the number of players all over the world it is highly likely at least one was a better leader than Messier.

Anyone who believes Messier is The GLIPS did not bear witness to his time in Vancouver.
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#7 nuckin_futz

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:23 PM

The first 18 years of his career were amazing and definitely not overrated . The last 7 years of his career he did not play 1 single playoff game and lead no one anywhere.

3 of the last 7 were in Vancouver where people have a reason to be miffed. The other 4 were in New York where he had already ended their cup drought and couldn't have done anything to tarnish his legacy.

When discussing his career people will gloss over his lost years in Vancouver. That is unless you live here and hate his guts.
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#8 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:28 PM

We'll never let Messier go, but the turmoil happened during his 3yr stay here would've happened, with or without his presense. The Bure fiasco, lack of goaltending, financial crisis, and regime change were all bigger issues than Messier's poor effort. Messier walked into a gong show (for the cash) and failure was inevitable.

One plus he had here was he mentored a young Markus Naslund and appointed him to the captaincy. Naslund went on to be somewhat of a savior for this franchise.

Times change, of course. And now we can look at that whole period down our noses, but at the time it was the Canucks that were god-awful, not Messier. (But Messier certainly didn't help us in the standings.)

I hope eventually Canucks fans can let Messier go. Show some respect for one of the greatest of all time.
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#9 RonMexico

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:29 PM

Hmmm the only player to ever captain two Stanley Cup winning teams and has an award for leadership named after him. I think that is enough to say he is not over-rated as a leader.
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#10 stonecoldstevebernier

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:48 PM

His leadership skills are overrated. His hockey skills aren't. One of the best to ever play the game without a doubt. But you can't be "the greatest leader in pro sports" if you cheapshot other players and laze around for the second half of your career collecting money. The leadership award would be better named after Steve Yzerman.
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#11 Goal:thecup

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:56 PM

Hmmm the only player to ever captain two Stanley Cup winning teams and has an award for leadership named after him. I think that is enough to say he is not over-rated as a leader.


Messier was a great player and garnered many awards.

Naming that trophy for leadership after him though was just wrong.

What kind of leadership did he and Lowe show teaming up to take that Russian defenceman (forget his name right now) out, high and low, and Lowe behind his head to Messier's elbow to the front of his head?

Leadership involves respect; Messier does not respect other hockey players.

His smash on Linden when Linden was already half-down in the '94 SC Finals, his trashing Canucks once he signed here, and his way-too-cozy relationship with that other slime-bag, Keenan, deciding team-mates futures, are all indicative of the very poor character, lack of respect of other players, and the true "leadership" of Messier.

I only have two regrets concerning Markus Naslund; his naming of Messier as a player that helped him, and Steve Moore.

I cannot let it go, sorry, he is a creep and he treated Vancouver like excrement.

He is not a great leader.
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#12 Jai604

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:59 PM

His leadership abilities are indeed overrated, but his abilities as a hockey player, surely, are not.

He was a tremendous player, and his numbers speak for themselves.
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#13 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:01 PM

Overrated had a lot of points, played a lot of games. The Gordie Howe complex. He was a great leader for the first decade of his career, mediocre the last decade. Wouldn't be second overall in points if guys like Mario or even Bure had his careers longevity, he should have retired 7 years earlier then he did... Ironically that was his first season as a Canuck

Edited by WonderTwinPowers, 05 March 2013 - 06:55 PM.

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#14 Coconuts

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:45 PM

He was a phenomenal player, the numbers speak for themselves. This being said, his leadership is greatly overrated.
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#15 Gross-Misconduct

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:01 PM

He was a phenomenal player, the numbers speak for themselves. This being said, his leadership is greatly overrated.


^^ This ^^

And I'll add he was a dirty player. In his younger days he was flat out vicous.
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#16 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:11 PM

I'd say his numbers are massively overrated, from playing on a dynasty oilers team. And also a very good New York team. Mario had 150 less points then him in 800 fewer games which is just astounding really, I really wish he could have stayed healthy his whole career. Or even another 200 games he deserves to be #2 on the all time scoring list based purely on talent.
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#17 ajhockey

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:19 PM

I'd say he is overrated. And not just because I'm a Canucks fan.

I only even started watching Canucks hockey in 2000, right after Messier's disastrous tenure with the team, therefore that bias does not directly influence me. Although simply being a Canucks fan and knowing the history of the team does introduce a little bit of bias, not to the same degree as it would if I had been a fan during those terrible late 90s.

I decided that Messier was overrated before I even really knew how much he messed here.

Messier had some fantastic years, no doubt, but I wouldn't say top 15 quality worthy. Messier had 6 years of 100+ points which seems incredible at surface level (and it is good), but when you look at it in more depth, you see that four of those are below 110 points, therefore only two are 110+ points.

As fantastic as those stats are, they don't merit him being ranked in the Top 10 Players All-Time IMO.

The next argument is, "He was a fantastic leader". To me, he was a fantastic leader...if the conditions were right. Put him on a great team, and he could be a fantastic leader, but put him on a desperate Canucks team, and what does he do? The team completely fell apart under his "leadership". A blemish that big on his record makes it hard to consider him "a fantastic leader".

All in all, in my opinion, Messier was an incredible player, but not as good as many consider him, and therefore, I consider him overrated.


Edit: Also.....4000th post!

Edited by ajhockey, 06 March 2013 - 12:32 AM.

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#18 Jai604

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:00 PM

???? hate Messier
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#19 Riviera82

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:47 PM

The dude has the second highest amount of points ever next to Gretz, no I don't think he's over rated.


Yeah he was a real good player, who played on the same Oilers teams as Gretzky, who played on the best team money could buy in the Rangers, and who played for way longer than he probably should have.
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#20 Spoosh

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:08 AM

We'll never let Messier go, but the turmoil happened during his 3yr stay here would've happened, with or without his presense. The Bure fiasco, lack of goaltending, financial crisis, and regime change were all bigger issues than Messier's poor effort. Messier walked into a gong show (for the cash) and failure was inevitable.

One plus he had here was he mentored a young Markus Naslund and appointed him to the captaincy. Naslund went on to be somewhat of a savior for this franchise.

Times change, of course. And now we can look at that whole period down our noses, but at the time it was the Canucks that were god-awful, not Messier. (But Messier certainly didn't help us in the standings.)

I hope eventually Canucks fans can let Messier go. Show some respect for one of the greatest of all time.


+1

We played at least nine different goalies if I'm not forgetting someone.
McLean, Hirsch, Burke, Snow, Weekes, Schwab, Michaud, Potvin and Irbe. Had three different coaches in Renney, Keenan and Crawford. And even with Bure, Mogilny and Messier leading the way, we were not a very strong team behind that trio. Öhlund was coming up, Lumme winding down and a huge amount of different players tried out and failing on that department big time.

Not much for Messier to lead there.
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#21 VanNuck

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 04:52 PM

Messier doesn't deserve being named greatest captain of all time, that's for sure. I think his problem wasn't being overrated, but his leadership was overwhelmingly polarizing and divisive. His strong personality was good to help get the Rangers by, particularly when Keenan practically stepped down in Game 7 of the Finals, as well as to help the Oilers get by without Gretzky. But those same qualities backfired in Vancouver when he drove Linden out of town.

Great leaders aren't just strong. They are sensible and attuned to their team, and help move them as one unit to victory.
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#22 Florence

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 04:55 PM

Being a dirty player isn't always a bad thing.
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#23 VanNuck

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 04:57 PM

The next argument is, "He was a fantastic leader". To me, he was a fantastic leader...if the conditions were right.


Ditto. Leaders don't perform only when conditions are right. They make the conditions right.

A guy like Gretzky, by contrast, he can help make conditions right. First, he shows respect for his teammates, great and small, and works to help them find their own strengths. Second, he works hard himself, and takes no shifts off, leads by example. A lot of people say his leadership gets overlooked because of his skills. I say his leadership makes possible his skills.
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#24 BedBeats™2.0

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 05:05 PM

His 'leadership' qualities are vastly overrated.

Other than that, he is one of the all-time greats.
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