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The Myth That AV Hates Rookies


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#1 Kack Zassian

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:28 PM

There seems to be this myth around CDC that "AV Hates rookies".

Most of this stems around Cody Hodgson last year, and the fact that pretty much pretty much every prospect we've had these last 5 years has sucked.

-- Hodgson had an entire FIVE games last season where he was under 10 mins/game. Sure, some nights he got 12, other nights he got 16. He also got to play some of the most sheltered minutes possible last year.

- Schroeder is currently seeing nearly 3 mins of PP time (despite 1 assist in his last 11 games)

- Or Kassians 2 assists and 14 shots in his last 14 games, his -5 in that stretch, but yeah well give him around 14 minutes a game (and 2:14/game on the PP).

- Our under performing rookies are getting BOATLOADS of opportunity to produce compared to guys like Higgins/Hansen who actually ARE producing.

IF ANYTHING, AV is giving his rookies preferred treatment over guys like Higgins/Hansen/Raymond/Booth. Hansen sees about 1:09 on the PP, and Higgins/Booth are around the 20 second mark/game.
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#2 oldnews

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:42 PM

If folks want a contender, contenders have deep lineups and rookies need to be able to play responsible two way hockey.
Do the RedWings hate rookies? No, they develop them until they are ready.

If folks want to compete for a lottery pick, they can do as the Sabres do and throw their rookies in the top 6, let them get exposed and learn on the job, play losing hockey, and brag about the opportunities they give rookies.

I'll opt for AV's approach.
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#3 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:44 PM

I agree that AV hating rookies is a myth....

...as are "AV never talks to his players", "AV never goes in the dressing room", "AV only knows how to coach defense", "AV only plays his favorites", "AV only knows how to coach in the regular season", "AV only won his Jack Adams because of Luongo", etc., etc....

...but hey, why let facts get in the way of a good rant?
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#4 timberz21

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:47 PM

It's not the minutes the problems. It's the constant line changing. Kassian moves around from 1st to 4th with stint on the 2nd and 3rd.

Kesler gets injured, suddenly Schroeder drops from 3rd to 4th, when he should have had a shot a 2nd line minutes.

Role player like hansen and higgins with produce consistently with whoever they play with and whatever minutes they gets.

Kassian and Schroeder needs stability, at least 4-5 games with the same linemates with considerable minutes.
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#5 Kevin Biestra

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:52 PM

Not taking a stance on AV and rookies either way really, but he doesn't really have the choice to put veterans out there all the time unless he wants the Sedins, Burrows, Higgins, Lappy all playing 24 minutes a game.
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#6 Erik Karlsson

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:54 PM

Kes and Malholtra are out, obviously Schroeders gonna get more minutes.

Edited by TheGame., 07 March 2013 - 01:54 PM.

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#7 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:18 PM

I agree that AV hating rookies is a myth....

...as are "AV never talks to his players", "AV never goes in the dressing room", "AV only knows how to coach defense", "AV only plays his favorites", "AV only knows how to coach in the regular season", "AV only won his Jack Adams because of Luongo", etc., etc....

...but hey, why let facts get in the way of a good rant?


I woud disagree with the use of the words never and only as absolutes. Other than that every one is true to a certain degree.
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#8 Kack Zassian

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:19 PM

It's not the minutes the problems. It's the constant line changing. Kassian moves around from 1st to 4th with stint on the 2nd and 3rd.

Kesler gets injured, suddenly Schroeder drops from 3rd to 4th, when he should have had a shot a 2nd line minutes.

Kassian and Schroeder needs stability, at least 4-5 games with the same linemates with considerable minutes.


Last 10 games Schroeders most frequent line combos have been
Raymond Schroeder Booth (6.8%)
Raymond Schroeder Hansen (3.34%)

As for Kassian
Booth Lapierre Kassian (6.8%)
Higgins Kesler Booth (4.78%)

I think the injuries obviously cause a bit of juggling, but they are struggling to produce wherever they are put.
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#9 uber_pwnzor

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:21 PM

STFU AV H8 ROOKIES!!!!! OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111 TRADE LOUNGO N FIRE MG OMGF !!!!!!!!!!!!111111
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#10 Aladeen

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:22 PM

I agree that AV hating rookies is a myth....

...as are "AV never talks to his players", "AV never goes in the dressing room", "AV only knows how to coach defense", "AV only plays his favorites", "AV only knows how to coach in the regular season", "AV only won his Jack Adams because of Luongo", etc., etc....

...but hey, why let facts get in the way of a good rant?

Priceless
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#11 Tearloch7

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:26 PM

I agree that AV hating rookies is a myth....

Let me fix this for you, Rupert:

...as are "AV talks to his players, but they canna understand a word he says", "AV goes in the dressing room, but the players ask him to leave due to bad garlic breath", "AV only knows how to coach Shi Tzu's", "AV only plays with his favorites", "AV only knows how to coach in one game series", "AV only won his Jack Adams because the NHL needed to reward a minority", etc., etc....

...but hey, why let facts get in the way of a good rant? .. there you go ..


None of what you stated are FACTS .. they are mere OPINIONS ..
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#12 ChuckNORRIS4Cup

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:38 PM

Grabner, Shirokov, Hodgson, now Schroeder, next Jensen and so on and so on.
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#13 Kack Zassian

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:50 PM

Grabner, Shirokov, Hodgson, now Schroeder, next Jensen and so on and so on.


Grabner - Wasn't in shape, was subsequently waived by the next team that acquired him
(Interesting fact, he has the same points/season avg as Raymond over the last 3 years... were not missing much..)

Shirokov - He wasn't given a chance in an 8 game sample? Hes certainly had a great career...

Hodgson - Had FIVE games last year under 10 minutes...just 5. Most games he was between 12-16 minutes and he was allowed to play soft competition... what more could you ask from for a coach as a rookie?

Schroeder - Is getting nearly 3 minutes/night on the PP (despite 1 assist in his last 11 games). How is that AV hating rookies??!
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#14 Melons

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:52 PM

Not gonna weigh in too strongly on AV hating rookies but it seems like our young guys are benefiting from injury and lack of depth in the system. Would Schroeder still be here if we had another veteran centre? Kass if we were flush with RWs? It's true we haven't had much in the system to bring up these past few years and it's nice to see our rooks getting experience but honestly I don't think they'd be here unless we needed them to be here.

Also, not sure what the coaches are doing with the PP but it hasn't been good, rookies or no.
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#15 CanucksJay

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:01 PM

I don't know why but the thread reminded me of this


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#16 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:07 PM

One Theory: AV gives icetime to those who'll succeed with more icetime.

This justifies benchings, promotions of underskilled players who are showing a bit of 'effort', and only works as an excuse when the team wins.


Other theory: The icetime allocation on this team is entirely political.

Meaning Gillis etc. is directly involved. This would help explain unexplainable benchings, players with pp-type skills not being put on the pp, star players being given the royal treatment, young stars never being given a decent opportunity, strange assignments given to underskilled players, and totally random shootout selections.


If politics is involved, and i am certain it is, then a LOT of strange things happening with this team in recent years are explained. However, it's difficult to prove. Just like the referee conspiracy. Hehe.
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#17 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:29 PM

One Theory: AV gives icetime to those who'll succeed with more icetime.

This justifies benchings, promotions of underskilled players who are showing a bit of 'effort', and only works as an excuse when the team wins.


Other theory: The icetime allocation on this team is entirely political.

Meaning Gillis etc. is directly involved. This would help explain unexplainable benchings, players with pp-type skills not being put on the pp, star players being given the royal treatment, young stars never being given a decent opportunity, strange assignments given to underskilled players, and totally random shootout selections.


If politics is involved, and i am certain it is, then a LOT of strange things happening with this team in recent years are explained. However, it's difficult to prove. Just like the referee conspiracy. Hehe.


The best conspiracies are the ones that cannot be proven.....;)
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#18 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:34 PM

I woud disagree with the use of the words never and only as absolutes. Other than that every one is true to a certain degree.


To a "certain degree" they're true of every coach in the NHL...
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#19 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:38 PM

Does AV hate rookies? No. Does he prefer veterans? Yes. In general. That doesn't explain Tanev over Ballard, etc. so there are always too many other factors involved to be so black and white.

Everything that AV does comes down to his PREFERENCE though and really that is his prerogative as head coach. Who gets quality ice time and opportunity and who doesn't. Who gets ripped in the media and who doesn't. Who gets a free pass for bad play and who doesn't. There is no consistent approach to what he does other than who he allows himself to trust and who he doesn't. Sometimes there is a disconnect between his perception and the on-ice reality though. And that disconnect is continually increasing as time goes on unfortunately. When it gets to the point that it has, it becomes time for a change to get back that urgency and accountability from the players.

It may be human nature but it really has started holding this team back significantly.
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#20 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:38 PM

To a "certain degree" they're true of every coach in the NHL...


Absolutely. I totally agree. But read my other post and before you attack me over it realize that it is actually true as well.

Not very many things in life are as black and white as never or always........not when it comes to people anyway.

Edited by wallstreetamigo, 07 March 2013 - 03:40 PM.

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#21 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:41 PM

None of what you stated are FACTS .. they are mere OPINIONS ..


Untrue. Go back and actually read what I said. All are 100% factual.

BTW: It's against the board rules to edit another user's post. Please don't do so again.
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#22 sedated

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:41 PM

Kassian was doing fine with the twins. He was our best forward. Then he got demoted because the twins were playing like crap. Even with Burrows back on the line, who's to say that they've even played that much better? They get points now, but what if they started to click with Kassian and they were that much better for it, considering Kassian was doing better with scoring than Burrows has been.

And then because Kassian got demoted, he gets put with a struggling line and gets further demoted. Basically because the twins weren't playing well he went from the first line to the fourth. Schroeder doesn't really make a mistake, but he bounces back between the third and fourth line. Burrows and Raymond both got the chance to play center, a position that they aren't even familiar with, over a prospect in Schroeder who was playing well and is USE to that position usually on a line above him.

Tanev is basically the only prospect that AV hasn't had bizarre treatment with, and even then, despite him playing the best defensively most nights, he was usually on the bottom pairing. Other defensemen above him play like crap and still get more opportunity than him. Everyone on the PP sucks, yet Ballard and Tanev, who deserve a shot over the broken ass people we use already, don't even get to try. Ballard isn't a rookie but AV dislikes him... and for the most bizarre thing?

Of all things, SCHROEDER gets put on the blue line on the PP.. despite being passed over offensively for normal play.. INSTEAD of Garrison, who now has our best shot on defense. AV just plays lines very strangely. Young players get the short end of the stick if veterans struggle, regardless if they play better or not.
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#23 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:47 PM

Absolutely. I totally agree. But read my other post and before you attack me over it realize that it is actually true as well.

Not very many things in life are as black and white as never or always........not when it comes to people anyway.


I did no "attacking" whatsoever. My first post was directed at the AV haters who use absolutes, such as "AV hates rookies", etc.

I have no idea why you decided to respond to that post in a negative way if you agree that it's correct...
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#24 theminister

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:47 PM

Honestly, who is the best rookie AV has had to work with over the last 4-5 years? Tanev? Schneider?

If we had Galchenyuk or Huberdeau he'd probably get to play quite a bit under AV if the team was low on veterans as both of their respective teams are.

But all in all several rookies have played on the Canucks recently.

Schneider
Tanev
Hodgson
Schroeder
Kassian
Oreskovich
Weise
Bolduc
Hansen
Shannon
Rypien

The question in my mind is not whether he will play rookies but whether he will be able to develop them into better players consistently.
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#25 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:48 PM

I did no "attacking" whatsoever. My first post was directed at the AV haters who use absolutes, such as "AV hates rookies", etc.

I have no idea why you decided to respond to that post in a negative way if you agree that it's correct...


I never said you attacked anyone.....I insinuated that since I said something negative about AV you almost certainly would based on my other post. I have history on my side there...;)
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#26 ChuckNORRIS4Cup

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:51 PM

Grabner - Wasn't in shape, was subsequently waived by the next team that acquired him
(Interesting fact, he has the same points/season avg as Raymond over the last 3 years... were not missing much..)

Shirokov - He wasn't given a chance in an 8 game sample? Hes certainly had a great career...

Hodgson - Had FIVE games last year under 10 minutes...just 5. Most games he was between 12-16 minutes and he was allowed to play soft competition... what more could you ask from for a coach as a rookie?

Schroeder - Is getting nearly 3 minutes/night on the PP (despite 1 assist in his last 11 games). How is that AV hating rookies??!


Grabner was known to be a goal scorer and that's something this team needed secondary scoring, but because of AV he didn't like is defensive game, so he get's limited time and then of course is traded, go figure. And your comparing his stats with Raymond, last time I checked Raymond plays on a 1st place team and Grabner plays on a last place team. (last 3 seasons Raymond = 147gp = 71points ppg/avg 0.48, Grabner = 177gp = 96points ppg/avg 0.54, even though Grabner played more games he still has a better ppg average)

Funny how Shirokov was able to produce more points in the AHL then Shroeder, they gave Shirokov a chance in 6 games he didn't get much done, so he was sent back to the minors, no argue there. He did a great job in the minors for 2 seasons, get's a chance to play again for the Canucks only gets 2 games, played decent didn't see anything bad about his game, even got a goal, then was told he would be sent back down, go figure probably because AV didn't like his defensive game.

Well we all know MG was show casing him for a trade, so I guess AV had no choice but to play him. But once again AV didn't want to play him because he didn't like his defesnive game what's new, even though with most of the time playing 3rd line minutes and still producing points, and scoring or helping goals scored at key moments of games, clutch goals. And the fact that your 3rd line rookie centerman is out performing your verteran 2nd line center, yet you don't want to send a message to your 2nd line center to step up his game, because your a weak coach and scared.

Do you not realize AV doesn't run the PP Newell Brown runs the PP, so AV may have a say, but he doesn't get to chose who plays what postion or where on the PP. Or the fact that AV has Schroeder playing on the 4th line? Have you not seen the size of this guy, he is not a 4th liner, unless you want him to get hurt maybe that's what AV is wanting.

Edited by ChuckNORRIS4Cup, 09 March 2013 - 06:13 PM.

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#27 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:57 PM

Regarding the fact that AV does not run the PP......that is true but he is still the head coach and all decisions go through him. If he doesn't like someone or something to do with it he most definitely has the right and actually the ultimate responsibility to make sure it gets fixed.

Blaming the assistant coach for something while completely absolving the head coach of any responsibility is just not the way things work.

Edited by wallstreetamigo, 07 March 2013 - 04:00 PM.

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#28 KeslerBEAST

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:01 PM

it's not completely AVs fault, it's the fact that the sedins shouldn't (not can't) be split and burrows almost always ends up being their winger and how AV always starts the sedins when theres offensive zone starts . that leaves any chance at an offensive role would be playing with kesler and we all know about keslers 5on5 chemistry with his linemates.

detroit can put brunner up with datsyuk and zetterberg and help him out a bit by giving him some confidence then he has to work hard. Canucks don't have the luxury of doing that because when kassian was with the sedins it resulted from horrible play from the sedins.
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#29 yogolol

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:10 PM

Not gonna weigh in too strongly on AV hating rookies but it seems like our young guys are benefiting from injury and lack of depth in the system. Would Schroeder still be here if we had another veteran centre? Kass if we were flush with RWs? It's true we haven't had much in the system to bring up these past few years and it's nice to see our rooks getting experience but honestly I don't think they'd be here unless we needed them to be here.

Also, not sure what the coaches are doing with the PP but it hasn't been good, rookies or no.

Would the Sedins play if the team was full of Crosby's?
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#30 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:44 PM

I don't think he hates rookies, really the only case I have an issue with is Shirokov, as he played well, scored and AV benched him for no reason, he could have helped this team IMO.

To me it is simply him going with guys he is more familiar with, which would also explain the Ballard benching to some degree, it doesn't justify it, but atleast puts a reason behind it.

Also with regards to young players, here is the issue I have, they are young players, they are going to make mistakes. Its going to happen. But stick with them, don't park Zack Kassian on the 4th line. He has shown he can play and be a good player, give him the opportunity.

And with Schroeder, I think he has shown he is willing to play him, again predictably he fizzled out. Tonight he is finally giving him time with players he can play with and succeed with.

Basically for right now, I just want him to stick with them, Don't bench them after 1 bad game, or 2 bad games or whatever, they are young players learning the game, maybe bench them and cut there shifts in the games but give them that opportunity in the next game to go out there with linemates he can succeed with and play better with, cause these guys, Schroeder and Kassian both can really help this hockey team when they play well.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 07 March 2013 - 04:46 PM.

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