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The Myth That AV Hates Rookies


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#31 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:45 PM

I never said you attacked anyone.....I insinuated that since I said something negative about AV you almost certainly would based on my other post. I have history on my side there... ;)



Ah, you assumed that I was going to attack you...

...so I have you looking over your e-shoulder, do I Wallstreet? ;)
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#32 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:47 PM

I dont know about rookies, but its truly bizzarre and concerning how Gillis seems to have a knack for picking up players that AV doesnt have much use for.

Edited by Red Light Racicot, 07 March 2013 - 04:48 PM.

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#33 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:50 PM

I dont know about rookies, but its truly bizzarre and concerning how Gillis seems to have a knack for picking up players that AV doesnt have much use for.


Such as?
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#34 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:52 PM

Such as?


I cant believe youre asking me this. Ballard, Garrison, Kassian right off the top of my head.
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#35 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:54 PM

I cant believe youre asking me this. Ballard, Garrison, Kassian right off the top of my head.


I can't believe that you think AV has "no use" for these players.
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#36 cc_devil

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:02 PM

AV Hates rookiies because they have to be coached. Something he just doesn't do!!!!!
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#37 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:17 PM

Ah, you assumed that I was going to attack you...

...so I have you looking over your e-shoulder, do I Wallstreet? ;)


I only do that with people who I may disagree with but have respect for their ability to make good arguments that actually make me consider what they say....:)

in other words, I do it for maybe 10 people total on CDC...lol
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#38 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:02 PM

I can't believe that you think AV has "no use" for these players.


I didnt say no use.

I meant there is a wide gap between roles they currently have on the team vs the salaries they command and the expectations these players had coming in.

I think its fair to assume that AV and MG are having problems seeing eye to eye on player/personnel management. There is a lot of stubborness between the two of them.

Edited by Red Light Racicot, 07 March 2013 - 07:43 PM.

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#39 canuck73_3

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:05 PM

I only do that with people who I may disagree with but have respect for their ability to make good arguments that actually make me consider what they say.... :)

in other words, I do it for maybe 10 people total on CDC...lol


Yet you whine about AV playing favorites...
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#40 marleau_12

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:49 PM

Grabner - Wasn't in shape, was subsequently waived by the next team that acquired him
(Interesting fact, he has the same points/season avg as Raymond over the last 3 years... were not missing much..)

To be honest, I wouldn't have minded the 34 goals on this team instead of a defenseman sitting in the press box. This season is only Grabner's third full year in the NHL. He had 11 points in 20 games for the Canucks before we dealt him. Slumped a bit last year, but looks to have refound his scoring touch this season.
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#41 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 07:59 AM

I only do that with people who I may disagree with but have respect for their ability to make good arguments that actually make me consider what they say.... :)

in other words, I do it for maybe 10 people total on CDC...lol

Well, that's way better than being part of Mitt's 47% in my book..... B)

I didnt say no use.

I meant there is a wide gap between roles they currently have on the team vs the salaries they command and the expectations these players had coming in.

I think its fair to assume that AV and MG are having problems seeing eye to eye on player/personnel management. There is a lot of stubborness between the two of them.

I disagree. I don't think that's a fair assumption at all.

Everyone watches Moneyball and assumes that the tension between Art Howe and Billy Beane is the norm, when it's actually the exception. Coaches and managers have regular meetings, where players' roles are discussed and their development analyzed. In fact, Gillis has stated many times that Cody Hodgson's ice time and usage were carefully planned out by the entire coaching and management team.

It's highly unlikely, IMO, that Coho was/is the only player that they would do this for.
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#42 Baggins

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:45 AM

I don't think he hates rookies, really the only case I have an issue with is Shirokov, as he played well, scored and AV benched him for no reason, he could have helped this team IMO.


After he scored his goal he started floating. This is nothing new for AV. He;s done it with everybody from Burrows to Raymond to Hansen when they were learning. Everybody plays a two way game. If you don't you find yourself parked on the bench. And prospects won't get the slack veterans get when it comes to mistakes.
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#43 Baggins

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:03 PM

To be honest, I wouldn't have minded the 34 goals on this team instead of a defenseman sitting in the press box. This season is only Grabner's third full year in the NHL. He had 11 points in 20 games for the Canucks before we dealt him. Slumped a bit last year, but looks to have refound his scoring touch this season.


He ran out of time here. I don't know why that's so difficult to grasp.

1 - He took too long to develop and had become waiver eligble.
2 - He had a history of showing up to camp in poor shape.
3 - Our entire top six just finished a career year
4 - As a result of 2 and 3 he had no chance of making this team out of camp.
5 - As a result of 1 and 4 the only logical thing to do was trade him.


It's so pointless whining about trading Grabner. If he wasn't traded he would have been lost to waivers. Something is always better than nothing. Which is what we would have had if Grabner wasn't traded.
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#44 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:26 PM

I disagree. I don't think that's a fair assumption at all.

Everyone watches Moneyball and assumes that the tension between Art Howe and Billy Beane is the norm, when it's actually the exception. Coaches and managers have regular meetings, where players' roles are discussed and their development analyzed. In fact, Gillis has stated many times that Cody Hodgson's ice time and usage were carefully planned out by the entire coaching and management team.

It's highly unlikely, IMO, that Coho was/is the only player that they would do this for.


Im just trying to make sense of how Gillis makes claims such as how Kassian was going to have an impact last year, or why he signed Garrison to a huge contract and we never see him on the powerplay. Is there a problem with our scouting?

Gillis gets Garrison, presumably to replace Salo on the powerplay, and AV gives up on him after a handful of games. How does that meeting go?

Why cant Gillis get the players AV wants? You claim they are on the same page, but it doesnt look like they are to me.
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#45 Erik Karlsson

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:15 PM

Grabner was known to be a goal scorer and that's something this team needed secondary scoring, but because of AV he didn't like is defensive game, so he get's limited time and then of course is traded, go figure. And your comparing his stats with Raymond, last time I checked Raymond plays on a 1st place team and Grabner plays on a last place team. (last 3 seasons Raymond = 147gp = 71points ppg/avg 0.48, Grabner = 177gp = 96points ppg/avg 0.54, even though Grabner played more games he still has a better ppg average)

Funny how Shirokov was able to produce more points in the AHL then Shroeder, they gave Shirokov a chance in 6 games he didn't get much done, so he was sent back to the minors, no argue there. He did a great job in the minors for 2 seasons, get's a chance to play again for the Canucks only gets 2 games, played decent didn't see anything bad about his game, even got an assist, then was told he would be sent back down, go figure probably because AV didn't like his defensive game.

Well we all know MG was show casing him for a trade, so I guess AV had no choice but to play him. But once again AV didn't want to play him because he didn't like his defesnive game what's new, even though with most of the time playing 3rd line minutes and still producing points, and scoring or helping goals scored at key moments of games, clutch goals. And the fact that your 3rd line rookie centerman is out performing your verteran 2nd line center, yet you don't want to send a message to your 2nd line center to step up his game, because your a weak coach and scared.

Do you not realize AV doesn't run the PP Newell Brown runs the PP, so AV may have a say, but he doesn't get to chose who plays what postion or where on the PP. Or the fact that AV has Schroeder playing on the 4th line? Have you not seen the size of this guy, he is not a 4th liner, unless you want him to get hurt maybe that's what AV is wanting.


/Thread
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#46 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:24 PM

Im just trying to make sense of how Gillis makes claims such as how Kassian was going to have an impact last year, or why he signed Garrison to a huge contract and we never see him on the powerplay. Is there a problem with our scouting?

Gillis gets Garrison, presumably to replace Salo on the powerplay, and AV gives up on him after a handful of games. How does that meeting go?

Why cant Gillis get the players AV wants? You claim they are on the same page, but it doesnt look like they are to me.


Your presuming Garrison was brought in to play the power play. I don't recall management ever stating that.

What I do know is that Garrison played almost 25 minutes last night. Strange, considering that AV "has little use" for him...
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#47 Melons

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:47 PM

Would the Sedins play if the team was full of Crosby's?


AV typically favours veterans over rookies. Due to lack of depth and injury he has to play rookies this year, ergo they are getting "boatloads of opportunity" not because he loves them but because he has no choice. I don't know how to put it any other way.

As for AV sitting out the Sedins on a team full of Crosbys-- he'd probably find a way to bench a few Sid the kids to get the twins out on the ice <_<
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#48 marleau_12

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:34 PM

He ran out of time here. I don't know why that's so difficult to grasp.

1 - He took too long to develop and had become waiver eligble.
2 - He had a history of showing up to camp in poor shape.
3 - Our entire top six just finished a career year
4 - As a result of 2 and 3 he had no chance of making this team out of camp.
5 - As a result of 1 and 4 the only logical thing to do was trade him.


It's so pointless whining about trading Grabner. If he wasn't traded he would have been lost to waivers. Something is always better than nothing. Which is what we would have had if Grabner wasn't traded.

He must be in shape now. Management could have been harder on the kid, as the NYI management must be cause they love him over there.
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#49 Kack Zassian

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:56 PM

He must be in shape now. Management could have been harder on the kid, as the NYI management must be cause they love him over there.


Keep in mind he shot 15.9 % during his 34 goal season (and has 39 career assists in 198 games..)

From 2009-2012 hes had the same PPG average as Mason Raymond...

Aside from a statistically outlying season, he hasn't been amazing by any stretch.
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#50 Baggins

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:03 PM

He must be in shape now. Management could have been harder on the kid, as the NYI management must be cause they love him over there.


Yup, all it took was a bottom feeder willing to gift him a roster spot.

One would think the chance of a million dollar plus payday would be incentive enough for a prospect to work his tail off. With a roster spot up for grabs for the 08/09 season he showed up in poor shape and lost that spot to Raymond. In 09/10 Raymonds spot was still up for grabs plus there was another spot available for the start of the season. He again shows up in poor shape and is among those re-assigned at the beginning of preseason. Raymond held onto his spot and Shirokov won the temporary spot out of camp. Then he has a golden opportunity to make a weak Florida team and yet again shows up in poor shape and is beat out by another prospect. One really has to question his off-season work ethic. He was lucky a weak NYI team was willing to hand him a roster spot until he got into game shape. He got himself a nice paycheck as a result and shows up the following season yet again in poor shape and has a terrible start to the season.This is probably his first season actually showing up in game shape. But then he played in Austria during the lockout.

The kid has a natural talent. It's just a shame he won't put in the work to make the most of it. Just think what he could be if he put in the off-season work the Sedins do.
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#51 Kack Zassian

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 02:24 PM

/Thread


/Thread? All this really confirmed was that if we didn't trade Grabner, we would have a 2nd Mason Raymond on the team...
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#52 oldnews

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 03:17 PM

I wish the Canucks were a bottomfeeder so our prospects could get more ice time.
They'd get a chance to develop like the players on last place teams like Buffalo and Edmonton, where kids get to learn by playing and making mistakes and not worry too much about not being very competitive.
And then those players would develop into solid roster veterans - like the Sedins, Burrows, Kesler, Hansen, Edler, Bieksa etc - and the team would have a deep veteran lineup, not needing to rely upon rookies in the top 6 and top 4...
At that point, we'd be like the RedWings, where prospects don't develop on the job, they are added to the roster when they're ready to contribute to a contender. That might actually be a better way to integrate young players...
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#53 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 07:30 PM

Your presuming Garrison was brought in to play the power play. I don't recall management ever stating that.

What I do know is that Garrison played almost 25 minutes last night. Strange, considering that AV "has little use" for him...


What do you think he was brought here for, to be a defensive stalwart?!.Garrison had 16 goals last year, 9 of them on the powerplay. The Canucks lost Salo and still havent replaced Ehrhoff.

If Gillis brought Garrison in to be anything other then a powerplay specialist, I think that would be a far more serious indictment of Gillis' abilities as a GM. Certainly more serious then my suspicion that hes not on the same page as Vigneault.
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#54 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:09 AM

What do you think he was brought here for, to be a defensive stalwart?!.Garrison had 16 goals last year, 9 of them on the powerplay. The Canucks lost Salo and still havent replaced Ehrhoff.

If Gillis brought Garrison in to be anything other then a powerplay specialist, I think that would be a far more serious indictment of Gillis' abilities as a GM. Certainly more serious then my suspicion that hes not on the same page as Vigneault.

I think he was brought in to be a top four, all around defenseman. Certainly, I think they expected him to be part of the PP, but I don't see him as purely a "specialist".

His 23+ minutes last night, (including over four minutes on the PP and almost two on the PK) indicate that the Canucks' management and coaching staff think the same.
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#55 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:23 PM

My observation is work rate is the single biggest factor in attributing minutes with AV. ie; if Rome works harder than Ballard he gets more minutes? The harder you work, the more minutes and further up the line you play? If Hansen works harder than ???

Its not a bad concept!

Except at times, a better physical talent < sometimes puck possession skills, sometimes 220 lbs of beef that can smash things < can still outperform the hardest worker. And combining talents can offer the most results?

Hey ON; you seem to have stats at your fingertips.

Can u tell us how much ice time, zone starts etc would be relevent for Brendon Saad & Andrew Shaw in Chicago?

Both are on par or younger than Schroeder & Kassian by memory.

But Quenneville seems to have systems were he pairs lines based on physical match ups. Thats been my observation since we saw he noticed that nobody could handle Byfuglien in front of our net. Rookie; aggh what the heck? Saad your 205 lbs and quick, lets have you bash it up for Hossa and Toews. It seems Chicago always runs balanced lines; talent (Toews), size (Hossa) and mucker with speed (Saad). Similar comparisons could be made of Kane/Sharp/Bolland, Staalberg/Shaw/Bickel line (in a 3rd line sense).

I can't help think that Twins/Kass, Booth/Schroeder/Burrows, Raymond/Lapierre/Hanson, Higgin/Ebbet/Weise gives every line a better chance to play two way hockey? Maybe the top line does not score so much, but the other lines all now have a play maker, size and a "glue" guy who wins the puck. And it does not force Kassian or Schroeder to single handed control the play for their line > both are playing with two vets..

Anywhoo; I'm a fan not a hockey coach.Just seems odd that other teams can find roles that rookies can fill. Same could be said in Philly, or LA, Boston had young guys going when we played them...

I think its an issue of the role they are being asked to play?

If folks want a contender, contenders have deep lineups and rookies need to be able to play responsible two way hockey.
Do the RedWings hate rookies? No, they develop them until they are ready.

If folks want to compete for a lottery pick, they can do as the Sabres do and throw their rookies in the top 6, let them get exposed and learn on the job, play losing hockey, and brag about the opportunities they give rookies.

I'll opt for AV's approach.


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 12 March 2013 - 12:16 AM.

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#56 hockeywoot

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:55 AM

AV doesn't hate rookies.
He doesn't like losing games.

His job is first and foremost to help us win games, not develop prospects.
AV has two requirements:
1) Help us win..........produce
2) don't hurt the team/make us lose.........play good defensive hockey

I have no doubt if AV was the coach when the twins came into the league, they'd score a little less,
but they would play a 200ft game. They'd be the type of players we could have used in the finals.

AV prefers vets over rookies. Understandable.
Vets make 'rookie mistakes' far less often.
Rookies often repeat these mistakes.

I will say, my one criticism is that rookies are put on TOO SHORT of a leash.
I think Kassian was taken off the top line far too quickly.
That's about it though.

Schroeder needs more seasoning. It's clear as day.
He needs to produce to be successful. He needs to be in the top 6.
But to stay in the top 6, you MUST produce, otherwise the coach will play players who can.
Think of Tanev being sent down last year, to get top-pairing minutes. And he was playing well!
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#57 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:15 AM

I will say, my one criticism is that rookies are put on TOO SHORT of a leash.
I think Kassian was taken off the top line far too quickly.
That's about it though.

I liked this post overall, but I wanted to address this one point:

The "demoting" of Kassian was really not about his play at all. Kass was playing well. The twins were not. The decision to put Burrows back on the top line was about getting Danny and Hank's game back.

And it has worked. We are seeing more production from the top line since the switch. It would have been nice to have Kassian's physical presence on the top line and a little more balance with Burrrows playing on the 2nd, but you need production from the first unit and Alex has made that happen since being reunited with Hank and Dan.
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