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Majority of Canadians want fighting ban


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#91 canidiot

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:06 PM

Shows you how little NHL players know about the game. See this: "As part of the Hockey Night in Canada/NHLPA player poll this year, we once again asked the players whether they would like to abolish the instigator rule. Last year, 66 per cent of the respondents wanted to keep the instigator rule. This year, only 53 per cent wanted to hang on to the rule." (from HNIC website, a poll of current NHL players). That was survey done by the NHLPA of NHL players. Still 53% do NOT want the instigator rule abolished. They just don't understand, right?


oh yes they understand quite well. who do you think will now have to protect themselves for their actions?my guess is about 53% of players would be on the loosing end of fights. therefore voting against letting the players regulate them.
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#92 disisdayear

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:32 PM

Wow, your position and intention of stimulating intelligent, philosophical debate/discussion sure deteriorated to a soap box pontification of banning fights real fast...cerebral evolution, the last time I checked, was all about understanding the many sides of any argument...appears you're still dragging your knuckles and barely walking erect with your own evolution. Maybe you should talk about that before you lecture everyone on how our world has evolved. Good luck to you, science dude...hope no one steals your Darwin fish off your back bumper.

So far, I've not read anyone except one or two persons make compelling arguments in favour of fighting. I would like to reply to these people, but for now I will reply to Boudrias.


Overcoming "brute force" is understandable. Actually, no one is even talking about that, as there are many sports with a brute force aspect to it, and they are undergoing their own studies and analyses on the subject; e.g., American football, rugby, and boxing, to name a few. We are talking about fighting in hockey, not brute force in sport. Two very different things that clearly must be spelt out to you. Let me be clear: one is a deliberate act of harming a player, the other is a team sport with specific rules. Fighting isn't in the rule book. If you don't want rules or you want to play by unwritten rules, you can take it to the streets. There is a difference between organised sport and people thugging it out.

What the game is or isn't about is your opinion; it is not for you or anyone to say what it is definitively or creating some type of elitist game where you decide who the 'real' fans are or are not. I have my own opinion on what hockey is. I don't care to waste time on personal opinions because, as they say, opinions are like...


No player goes on the ice thinking he wants to beat some shmuck? Really? Can you tell that to McLaren? 26 seconds into the first period? Oh, suddenly it's not "no player" but just a 'handful' or 'on rare occasion', right? Let's get the facts out without all the cheap rhetoric. The rest of what you say here is irrelevant to the discussion.


Thank you for the advice, but I think I'm a big boy and can make up my own mind. I'm sure when fighting is banned from hockey, which it will be (maybe not soon but it will be), you will stop watching and forget about the sport you so cynically loved only because of the fighting, right? I suggest you throw in the towel (pun intended), and realise the sport you romanticise is not coming back. Luckily, newer generations are capable of thinking logically and will improve the game. I know this because even though I do not know hockey inside-out, there are a couple of other sports I grew up with since I was born, and know the history of them. What is going on in hockey is not unique to hockey. Crack open a (history) book on other sports and you will understand how the evolution of sport occurs.

I don't waste my time campaigning against anything. I waste my time on improving areas of society which I love.

For the record, I hate UFC. The people who participate in that are a bunch of morons. Someone who used to be my bestfriend now trains for and wants to compete in UFC/MMA. I've had that discussion with him and know more about it through him educating me than the average viewer. Suffice it to say our friendship could not last because he lost a few billion neurons that have left him so incapable of rationalising, that he has been brainwashed into thinking UFC is 'cool' and 'fun'. I know through him what that 'sport' does to someone and the side effects of it.

To be honest, the whole rhetoric of those in favour of fighting is disgusting and a little insulting.

But let me humour you. The fact that you bring up NFL is pretty hilarious. You see, human evolution is a funny thing. 'Cuz, you know what? When humans evolve, they don't only evolve in one sport. They evolve in all areas of life. This means (gasp!) hockey is affected by human evolution. Ain't that a funny thing?

Let me be a little less subtle. There has been data by orders of magnitude suggesting long term damage is severely crippling players as early as late 20s and in their 30s in football as you know. This is because of their improved training techniques. Your oldtime hockey buddies did not have the bodies, resistance, adrenaline, legal drugs/enhancers, training that new kinesiology has brought forth.

If there is something that surprises me, it is that within each sport, there are many fans so hell-bent on not accepting the facts or numbers, that they make up excuses, use conspiracy theories or nitpick so much and lay the blame at a billion other things in order to defend their position on the matter at hand. One cannot rationalise or think logically with these people. Thus, I will not even bother with them. It's the same reason Richard Dawkins has said he will not debate or argue with creationists, who do not care about facts and cannot be persuaded with scientific analyses. To continue with this analogy, all us rational folk can do is ensure these barbarics are not in a position to make decisions or influence the rules, in this case, of hockey. Unfortunately, in society, some people need help to protect them from doing harm to themselves and to others because of their destructive personalities. So if you can't play hockey to save your life, in the future, this will mean you cannot just be used as a goon or an enforcer/instigator just to cash in, because not only is this harmful to others, but this type of person is being used himself, as a mere puppet, and this responsibility falls not only on the league, but on the organisation's management.

Imagine a world where people actually need skill and intelligence to be compensated. I know, it's a crazy idea, eh? But we're getting there, slowly but surely.


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#93 jovocop55

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 03:09 PM

want staged fighting to be gone. its stupid
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#94 literaphile

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 03:14 PM

I don't think there's a place for fighting anymore, especially since most fights are of the staged "side-show" variety. Pre-determined fights between two tough guys, fights right after the puck drops, etc. They add nothing to the game.
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#95 debluvscanucks

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 03:16 PM

Not this Canadian


Fighting happens when you have a fast paced, intense game of contact...it's part of a natural progression in that.

I think there'd be a lot more dirty cheapshots if there wasn't fighting...fighting is a way to make sure guys have to answer for that stuff.
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#96 theminister

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 03:19 PM

I don't think there's a place for fighting anymore, especially since most fights are of the staged "side-show" variety. Pre-determined fights between two tough guys, fights right after the puck drops, etc. They add nothing to the game.


Tell that to Chris Phillips, a noted non-fighter, who stood up to the Isles Michael Haley last night for a run at Jim O'Brien.

He took the extra misconduct and instigator and his team won the game.

That's how and why it should be done. The staged fighting is not necessary but they're not the reason fighting exists in hockey.
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#97 Brick Tamland

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 04:42 PM

I have been attending hockey games for 35+ years, I can tell you I have yet to hear anyone say when a fight starts "Oh, not again... this is so dumb"

They cheer their asses off.

Fighting is part of hockey. It has been since day 1.

Want to make the game safer?

Go back to the old, soft equipment. Thin pads etc.. guys will think twice about a lot of things...

I put a pair of elbow pads on today and I swear they are bullit proof.

Make the rinks bigger, the equipment smaller...
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#98 Tsui Pen

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 04:50 PM

Wow, your position and intention of stimulating intelligent, philosophical debate/discussion sure deteriorated to a soap box pontification of banning fights real fast...cerebral evolution, the last time I checked, was all about understanding the many sides of any argument...appears you're still dragging your knuckles and barely walking erect with your own evolution. Maybe you should talk about that before you lecture everyone on how our world has evolved. Good luck to you, science dude...hope no one steals your Darwin fish off your back bumper.

Oh, please. Save the ad hominem attacks and melodrama. I receive unfounded criticism and no one mentions it. I make a couple of sarcastic comments and a couple of you act as if you are "calling me out". Notice I never made any strawman attacks, whereas I can count quite a few that have made strawman attacks on me, yet I don't see you arbitrating this discussion to make it a fair 'playing field'. Sorry but I don't like to put up with this type of rhetoric. If I am bias, I will state it. I do have biases but will make it clear when I am stating them.

What I say is simple: the game has changed. People do romanticise the way it used to be. The current state of the game is not like before. Many people want to keep fighting because of 'tradition'.

There is a difference between a soap box and having a meaningful discussion. Most responses here are no longer than a few sentences. I don't care, though. There are a few good responses that I can hopefully have the time to reply to instead of trying to defend myself every time someone tries to throw the thread off-topic.

If you read my original post, I said I do not like fighting and if it were up to me I would ban it. I am having a difficult time understanding why all of a sudden you feel I am pontificating "banning fights real fast". I was clear about my position on this matter.

Also, if a survey is done and shows that players want to keep fighting, so be it. If someone showed me evidence of this and I continued on some diatribe, then that would be pontificating. So, let's ensure we are not misunderstanding one another or talking across each other.

I laid out what I think is the reasoning behind keeping fights. Do you really want me to outline the one-liners that 'explain' why they want to keep fighting? You are doing exactly what I said fans do. Don't be blind-sided by your passion for the sport. I feel passionate about it as well, but sometimes we need to step aside and throw some cold water on the situation.

And I'm sorry but I have no idea what you mean by "Maybe you should talk about that before you lecture everyone". What exactly do you want me to talk about? How you insult me by insinuating that I am an unevolved thing? No thanks. I'd rather have a meaningful discussion with people that can share anecdotes and some data, which luckily a few have done.

ANYWAY.

coastal1 brings up an interesting figure of a poll done by Hockey Night in Canada. It does show that the majority (53%) do not want the instigator rule abolished. I dug around and the details are extremely bare. I won't even provide the link because it shows absolutely no detail.

However, I wanted to bring up a point about statistics. Just a few days ago (March 6), CBC Sports had an article on statistics: http://www.cbc.ca/sp...statistics.html

This is what I am getting at, in part. If you read that article, you'll notice coaches and management treat stats cautiously. I know the article doesn't get into it, but all of the higher-ups realise how powerful statistics can be. Especially when wanting to reveal facts that can damage the sport. Read between the lines. But more importantly, notice that the Canucks embrace these advancements in technology and statistics.

Let me make a comparison: right now, in soccer, there is an analytical tool created by none other than the Germans, that analyse each player's playing method. You can head over to Castrol Football.com to have a look.

But this does more than analyse what players need to improve on and best strategies. It can potentially create a profile on the health, stamina, endurance, and health/well-being of a player.

With this amount of data, we will be able to tell what hockey needs to improve on. For all of you who love everytime Alain flips a coin, go ahead and oppose statistics. I'm sure these same people love to argue and get angry about AV's 'methodology'. Teams are secretive, though, and this is not conducive to revealing meaningful data.

Hockey is no longer your traditional boys being boys playing oldtime hockey. It is a business. There are two sides to it, and fans do themselves a disservice when they get overtaken by their emotions. I'm sure the NHL loves this, because this is how they get you and manipulate you.

What I'm trying to say is let's not kid ourselves with the whole 'Let's Keep It Real'. People are making money, and a lot of it, off of the whole fighting aspect. I'm not against making money, but I have a problem when it is done at the cost of people's livelihoods and well-being.

I'll leave it at that for now. Thanks for reading.
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#99 heysoulsisters21

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 06:23 PM

you just bring a blindfold when you watch a game and put em over when there's fights.... gosh jeez
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#100 coastal1

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 10:46 PM

oh yes they understand quite well. who do you think will now have to protect themselves for their actions?my guess is about 53% of players would be on the loosing end of fights. therefore voting against letting the players regulate them.

So 53% of players are cheap shot artists!!
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#101 allkill326

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 10:52 PM

Fighting happens when you have a fast paced, intense game of contact...it's part of a natural progression in that.

I think there'd be a lot more dirty cheapshots if there wasn't fighting...fighting is a way to make sure guys have to answer for that stuff.


I agree. It's a way for players to vent their angers, so that they won't be flared enough to make cheap shots and dirtier plays.
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#102 riffraff

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 11:09 AM

You make good points on the ethos of having fighting in a game/sport when society typically does not condone it. And if one sticks with the tenet that sports of all kinds is a microcosm of society, then yes, fighting in hockey should probably be banned.

I'm a long time hockey fan and have been on both sides of the debate, and probably could make a strong argument for both sides. Under the current rules of NHL hockey and the culture that is embedded into the game, it would be very difficult to take fighting out, or even have fights regulated.

Fighting in hockey has gone down in the last 20 years, but during this period, the incidence of reported head injuries/concussions is up dramatically. This can be a function of greater awareness and reporting of these injuries and/or higher incidence of middleweights/light heavyweights colliding at high speeds because they feel they can do so without retribution or consequence. Though I have no empirical proof, I believe that it is a combination of the two, and feel that players' respect for each others' safety has diminished substantially, because the NHL is slowly trying to phase fighting out.

As well, though there is always exceptions to the rule, fighting in the NHL typically takes place among players within the same weight class (though the kid from Ottawa took on someone who was 45 pounds heavier, which obviously put him at a huge disadvantage). There are many unwritten rules among fighters...helmets off if visors are worn, no hitting a player when he's down or falling, holding back when opposing fighter in not able to defend himself, etc., so fighting in the NHL is already somewhat self-regulated.

Fighting has historically been in place to intimidate opposing teams and to act as a deterrent (i.e., protect). The effectiveness of having "fighters" on your roster to fulfill its purpose seems to be diminishing so now may be the time to ban it. However, before that happens, rules to ban other infractions need to be implemented because without these rules in place, we are going to see a whole bunch of other infractions intended to gain physical advantage take place. These infractions could very well be more dangerous than fighting (i.e., Kaleta's hit on Brad Richards).

So, as it is under the current rules of the NHL, I see a place for fighting in the NHL game. Should it be banned, rules (and punishment) governing other infractions need to be in place first.

To me, fighting is an all-or-none proposition...we've been witnessing a slow phase out of it over the past 10-20 years, and though we cannot say it's 100% the reason, I believe it has contributed to higher incidence of head injuries and other behaviors that show diminished respect among the players.

Edit: sorry, but in my rambling on, I failed to state a definitive position on fighting...it should remain part of the game...the instigator rule has to go.

I am 100% with Burkie's position that the rats of the game (Marchand, Bolland, Cooke, Kaleta, Carcillo and the likes) are getting away with too much. These type of players exist because they have no regard for other players' safety and need to be rag dolled every once in awhile to keep them honest. The only way to have these rats show honour is to instill some fear into them, and like it or not, fighting (minus the instigator rule) is the only way to do it.


I thought that art was a reflection of society.
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CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#103 TimberWolf

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 11:23 AM

Lets keep one thing in perspective here.

Watching people fight does not make you personally tough.
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#104 disisdayear

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 11:35 AM

I thought that art was a reflection of society.


I suppose that is why you don't see fights breaking out at the Guggenheim, or the National Gallery of Art...even the Vancouver Art Gallery, where you have to deal with occasional societal dissidents.

Baseball on the other hand...

Love how the Canadians stuck up for themselves...something the OP doesn't seem to understand about team sports. These hockey and baseball guys that fight, well, they're just barbaric...just barbaric, I say (note to OP - get it? Or is this concept of one for all, all for one in team sports, too difficult for you to understand?).


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#105 AppleJack

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 11:50 PM

I went and read this ultra biased article that read like a campaign infomercial to ban fighting rather than fact.

It sources an 'online' poll which becomes impossible to verify if the respondents are adults and if some dont even like fighting , as most women do not.

Actual male hockey fans, as well as hockey players produce a 95% approval of fighting in the game. Or at least it was last time the issue came up.

They certainly didnt wait for the juiciest moment possible, replaying an almost never happens knock out over and over to milk the reaction even more.


Why must you assume female Hockey fans don't like fights? Every single female fan that I have ever met (even casual female fans) love the fights because it brings emotion/passion into the game especially when your team is down and not to sound like ' a puck bunny' but the fights are kind of sexy.... <_< My point is regardless to the reasoning behind why women like fights the fact remains that we like them so please don't just lump us into the a group of women and men who may not think fighting in hockey is acceptable. I tend to find that the majority of people who I have talked to who think hockey should ban fighting don't even like hockey or just fair weather fans and do not understand the need for it.

Edited by Gillyfluffball, 10 March 2013 - 11:53 PM.

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#106 VanNuck

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:08 PM

Ban fighting, and I would probably stop watching hockey.
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#107 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:43 PM

Ban fighting, and I would probably stop watching hockey.


I love the sport of hockey to much to let much of anything stop me from watching it but taking fighting out... It would be close...
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#108 Aladeen

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:07 PM


I am sorry you and the other user have had experiences that have made both of you question someone trying to offer a discussion with some substance without thinking there must be some hidden agenda.

Fortunately, I am a real person. No one paid me anything and no company or big corporation paid me anything to come and post here or sign up to this forum.

I am a man of science for the most part. I like to have interesting conversations, like I said. Maybe few people in sport's forums do try to offer depth or detailed discussions. There is no need to talk of conspiracy theories. However, you'll find that I do not easily believe stats or what I hear or see on TV or on the Web. I am a sceptic.

I thought this would be a great conversation starter. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. You know, healthy dialogue.

I'm much more of an observer, anyway.

Hockey is great. I've watched all but a couple of periods from two games (of the Canucks, obviously). I've even worn Canucks gear for almost every game. I try to learn about the game as much as time permits.

But you know, one thing is, my friends and I; we are not very aggressive people to begin with (we're in our late 20s and 30s, if that matters). Fighting is part of the game, but it doesn't mean we can't have some meaningful discussion about it over a beer. We like to enjoy the game. We're not the most boisterous guys, though we cheer on our team in good and bad times.

Yes giving excessively more information about the demographics of you and your friends (20-30 year old beer-drinking hockey-watching guys) really makes you seem genuine :rolleyes:

Edited by Aladeen, 14 March 2013 - 10:08 PM.

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#109 Aladeen

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:15 PM

Exactly, so why bother with boring hockey, when as you say nothing gets everyone's attention like the fights. On the same note, we should make sure we have a lot more horrific crashes on the roads, did you notice how everyone slows down and stares, nothing gets their attention like a great crash. And yes, I am sure the Ottawa bench were all banging their stick when their guy was scraped off the ice..

So why aren't you out petitioning Banning Boxing, UFC, Olympic Fighting sports? What about auto racing? Or just cars in general? Why don't they use a foam puck and get rid of the ice altogether (those skates are sharp)? Its a tough game, they get paid big dollars because of the risk.

That "Guy" they "scraped" off the ice feeds his family by what he does in hockey, if there is no fighting guess what? he is riding a bus making 30k a year and could get even more injured in one of those horrific traffic accidents you described. If the people doing it don't have a problem with it why is it such a big deal to someone like you who has probably never even played the sport in your life.
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#110 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:20 PM

How about leaving it up to the players and the league? They're the ones that are ultimately affected by this, not the fans.

You don't want someone irrelevant to your occupation saying what you can and can't do..
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#111 mikeburn

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 05:21 PM

I heard that 2/3 of Canadians want fighting banned ( they were talking about it on Sportsnet) but I find that very hard to believe. I dont think I know 1 Canadian who is a hockey fan that wants it banned. I have a feeling that it is a biased survey done by a group that wants it banned and is targeting like minded people for their surveys.


Hi. My name is Mike McBurney, I am Canadian, and I want fighting in organized hockey banned.

There, now you know 1 Canadian who wants fighting banned in hockey.

I'm a rec hockey team coach, play 5-6 games a week on average (belong to 4 league teams + typically play a couple pick ups), and I even pay for NHL Centre Ice because if I'm not on the ice myself, then we're watching hockey. And there isn't one guy or gal from all who I know in the local hockey scene who has claimed to actually like fighting in the game. Most, like me, agree that if a confrontation goes spazzy in a game, fair enough, but the whole re-arranged scrap stuff is lame at best, should be tossed out of the sport altogether.

A staged fight comes on the TV and it's a simply time to get drink/food refills, or flip to the channel to see how another game is going. Amusing, in a sad way, is seeing the silly fan folk down at ice level smashing the glass cheering on the staged "fighters". Wonder if those folk ever watch a recording of the game afterward - if only to see how they embarrassed themselves.

Football is a good example of a sport made better for rewarding fighting with an automatic game toss. Skill and ability, combined with raw strength and brute physical play, makes football a great sport - they don't need a bunch of fake toughies punching each other out as if trying to prove they're men and professional athletes. They don't need to watch teammates bash each other at possible risk to career-ending injuries just to "get going" and feel like playing harder themselves.
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#112 Ride the red Pony

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:10 AM

I suppose that is why you don't see fights breaking out at the Guggenheim, or the National Gallery of Art...even the Vancouver Art Gallery, where you have to deal with occasional societal dissidents.

Baseball on the other hand...

Love how the Canadians stuck up for themselves...something the OP doesn't seem to understand about team sports. These hockey and baseball guys that fight, well, they're just barbaric...just barbaric, I say (note to OP - get it? Or is this concept of one for all, all for one in team sports, too difficult for you to understand?).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0445HMGAzA0



Funny how 47 the third baseman, who told the pitcher to hit the batter, wanted no part of the Canadian who was trying to get at him, lol.
Buddy starts the party and leaves early. SMH.
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#113 disisdayear

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:50 AM

Funny how 47 the third baseman, who told the pitcher to hit the batter, wanted no part of the Canadian who was trying to get at him, lol.
Buddy starts the party and leaves early. SMH.


I guess hockey isn't the only sport where you have rats...it would have been great if one of the Canadian players would have speed bagged and pinata'd that Speedy Gonzalez...oh hang on, that would be barbaric according to OP...there's no reason for cause and effect to take place.


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#114 Ride the red Pony

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 12:32 PM

I agree with some of the posters that stated, we need to remove staged fights, we will never get rid of it all together unless we remove contact all together.
If you have ever played the game you will understand what I meant by that, as disisdayear stated above, it does come down to "cause and effect".

This is not curling, bowling, figure skating, or golf, and fortunately or unfortunately for some, fighting is a by product of the contact.
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#115 disisdayear

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 12:55 PM

I agree with some of the posters that stated, we need to remove staged fights, we will never get rid of it all together unless we remove contact all together.
If you have ever played the game you will understand what I meant by that, as disisdayear stated above, it does come down to "cause and effect".

This is not curling, bowling, figure skating, or golf, and fortunately or unfortunately for some, fighting is a by product of the contact.


You'd have a hard time convincing Nancy Kerrigan that figure skating is violence-free. That Tonya Harding would have made a tough NHL enforcer.
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#116 Ride the red Pony

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:45 PM

You'd have a hard time convincing Nancy Kerrigan that figure skating is violence-free. That Tonya Harding would have made a tough NHL enforcer.


lol, Tonya was BAD A$$
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#117 Roflcawptur

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:02 PM

Shocker.
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:canucks: Proud Canuck from Kansas City :canucks:

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#118 Forsy

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:01 PM

lol, Tonya was BAD A$$

Being a psychopath who stabs people without warning is not really badass - more like PUNK, or coward that can't take losing.
Secondly, the fat a$$ tonya probably couldn't handle real fighters like the Cyborg or Rousey.
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#119 disisdayear

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:11 PM

Being a psychopath who stabs people without warning is not really badass - more like PUNK, or coward that can't take losing.
Secondly, the fat a$$ tonya probably couldn't handle real fighters like the Cyborg or Rousey.


Upon reflection, I'd have to agree with you Forsy. Harding would be more of a rat than an enforcer...she hid behind the goons (her boyfriend) who whacked Kerrigan's knee...is there a stabbing incident Harding was involved with?
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#120 etsen3

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:51 AM

Also, if a survey is done and shows that players want to keep fighting, so be it. If someone showed me evidence of this and I continued on some diatribe, then that would be pontificating. So, let's ensure we are not misunderstanding one another or talking across each other.


OP I find your posts wordy and confusing but here:

http://ca.sports.yah...-175557533.html

98% of players want to keep fighting.
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