Jump to content

Welcome to canucks.com Vancouver Canucks homepage

Photo

Ron Paul warns Canada’s conservatives that the U.S. war on drugs failed


  • Please log in to reply
66 replies to this topic

#1 key2thecup

key2thecup

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,920 posts
  • Joined: 28-November 07

Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:16 PM

Ron Paul warns Canada’s conservatives that the U.S. war on drugs failed


OTTAWA — Canada’s conservative movement was warned Friday that America’s war on drugs — now being emulated by the Harper government with tough mandatory jail terms — has been an expensive disaster that has stripped millions of people of their civil liberties.

The message came from Ron Paul, a former U.S. congressman and failed contender for the Republic presidential nomination last year. Paul delivered the opening address to hundreds of conservatives gathered at an annual conference sponsored by the Manning Centre for Building Democracy.

A well known libertarian who is considered the godfather of the Tea Party, Paul spoke about the many dangers that citizens face when governments intrude into either the economy or their personal lives.

“If you believe in liberty, you will protect economic liberty and personal liberty. They are all one and the same.”

Paul said citizen freedom should extend to “personal behavior” and “lifestyle”.
“If we have legalization of religious freedom, some people have this religion or that religion, and some people have no religion. Most people will accept that as rather tolerant.”

“But when it comes to lifestyle in the last 30 to 40 years, we have spent about five to six trillion dollars enforcing laws which I think make no sense whatsoever, (and) has caused our prisons to have more prisoners than China.”

Paul blasted the “irrationality of the drug laws that tell people what they can put in their mouths and what they can put in their bodies.” “I think the drug war needs (to be) repealed,” he said to cheers and applause from many people in the conference centre, a short walk from Parliament Hill.
Many of the people attending the conference are fervent supporters of Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s Conservative government.

Topics on the conference agenda include the oil patch and environmental protection, privatization of some health care, foreign policy and aboriginal affairs. Among the ministers appearing at the conference are Jason Kenney (immigration), Maxime Bernier (small business and tourism) and Tony Clement (treasury board).

Since first being elected in 2006, the Conservative government has espoused a strong law-and-order agenda which it says is needed to keep criminals off the streets. Critics say it is merely a political tactic to attract votes and some of the measures are an overreach.
But the government, with the majority it won in 2011, has pressed ahead. Last fall, the government’s new drug laws came into force.

The measures, part of the Safe Streets and Communities Act, provides mandatory six-month jail term for growing as few as six marijuana plants. In his speech, Paul did not make direct reference to that law, but he stressed that the Americans’ experience has been awful.

He said that as a father and a medical physician, he recognizes that drugs are very dangerous.
“But if you compare the so-called illegal drugs to prescription drugs, a lot more people die from the prescription drug abuse.”

Paul said there is far too much regulation.

“The government is so much involved. No, you can’t smoke a marijuana cigarette but we’re going to fill you up with psychotropic drugs. There has to be a better answer. There has to be more common sense.”

Later, speaking to reporters, Paul declined to speak specifically about Canada, but he then explained why he and others have opposed mandatory sentences in the U.S.
“We have wanted it to have more prerogatives from the judges. Because sometimes these mandatory sentences, in the states at least, have put people in prison for life.”

In his speech, Paul told conservatives that citizens must put a stop to government policies such as this and he said he would do away with things such as the central bank and other economic programs that skew the economy.
“Once the government gets in the business of producing economic equality or making you morally a better person, you have sacrificed the principle of liberty,” said Paul.

“And you have given the government too much power. Inevitably, throughout all history, governments when they get that power, they always expand that power until there is the next revolution.”
Paul stressed he does not espouse violence, but instead wants people, particularly young people, to use the power of ideas to achieve change.

Former Reform party leader Preston Manning, president of the centre that held the conference, said people with “different views” were invited to speak to engage a good discussion.
“Conservatives are not afraid of self-examination,” said Manning.


Read more: http://www.canada.co...l#ixzz2MzcGbjXM





The Ron Paul Revolution rambles into the Manning Networking Conference

Posted Image


It is barely 9 a.m. on a cold Thursday morning, but every Conservative worth their blue is packed like bespoke sardines into this Ottawan conference room hoping for a glimpse of the world's most famous Libertarian.

Dr. Ron Paul is on his first trip to Canada, and we are all here to welcome him with Belieber-esque enthusiasm.

As he bounds onstage to the theme from Star Wars, the crowd is already on its feet. I hear the click of camera phone shutters and the swoosh of text messages being sent.

"The spirit of liberty seems like it's alive and well in Canada, and a revolution is happening!"
The room fills with rapturous applause and Twitter blows up.

For the next hour Ron Paul talks extensively and passionately about liberty. He defines it by what it is (freedom) and what it is not (everything else). He encourages governments--his own and ours--to put personal liberty above their own interests. He says that modern societies are failing because they have replaced the concept of personal liberty with 'interventionism'.

"If you believe in interventionism across the board" he says, his voice rising, you want the government to invade personal lives, economic prosperity and foreign policy.

He shouts "I am a non interventionist and that is what freedom is all about!"
And the crowd goes wild.

It is like this for the first half hour of his speech. Dr. Paul holds us enthralled. The governments should not raise taxes, in fact, there should be no income tax! Everyone gets to 'keep their money'. Governments should be smaller. Personal liberty and economic liberty are one and the same.

It's all so simple. Breathtakingly so.

And then.

I start to keep a tally of the times Dr. Paul says the words 'central bank'. Five. Seven. Nine. Eventually I stop counting. He did, after all, write the book on why it should be ended. He talks about the dangers of psychotropic drugs and then segues into a nearly ten minute monologue on the folly of bonds, banks and a lack of personal financial responsibility. He questions whether life begins at one minute before or one minute after birth, and why someone can pay him 'a huge amount of money' to end a pregnancy without penalty, and then be prosecuted as a criminal if she abandons a newborn.

The crowd sits politely, but they are less rapt.

I watch a woman across the aisle from me absentmindedly braid and unbraid a lock of her hair. People are slouching in their seats, checking phones and updating twitter. I notice that Dr. Paul's hands shake a little when he holds them still.

For Conservatives, there's a lot to love about the Libertarian ideology. The personal freedoms are without restriction, industries are encouraged to regulate themselves as they see fit and the growth of the economy is constant and perpetual. But for a Canadian Conservative who believes fully in the platform of their party, there is ample grey area where Dr. Paul's libertarianism doesn't fit. He abhors the idea of mandatory minimum sentences for criminals. Canada's Tories are just getting into the business. He thinks marijuana should be legal. Conservatives here want it outlawed (and contraband tobacco, too). He says we should never "send anybody to the legislature unless they tell you the truth all the time!"

We're, uh, speaking broadly, less keen on that.

Fortunately, he finishes strong, quoting Victor Hugo. "They say you cannot resist armies. I disagree. The one thing that can beat an army is an idea." To him, ideas are pervasive, persuasive and will spread over the internet to make the revolution happen!

Maybe it will. Maybe Dr. Paul is right and we're all dancing on the precipice of total ruin. And maybe Libertarian philosophy, should our society collapse like a cheap suit collar around our collective clavicles, will have a defining role in how we can rebuild.

But for now, for Canada and the Conservatives in this salon, it all seems too simple. Breathtakingly so.

http://www.vancouver...king-conference




Edited by key2thecup, 08 March 2013 - 04:17 PM.

  • 2

Dr. Ron Paul 2016!

 


#2 Electro Rock

Electro Rock

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,633 posts
  • Joined: 17-March 04

Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:18 PM

*
POPULAR

Paul for Prime Minister!
  • 9
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

Norman Thomas

#3 J.R.

J.R.

    Rainbow Butt Monkey

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,367 posts
  • Joined: 04-July 08

Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:20 PM

Yup.
  • 0
"Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you."
- Neil deGrasse Tyson

Posted ImagePosted Image

#4 woot

woot

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,053 posts
  • Joined: 30-May 09

Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:49 PM

*
POPULAR

Ron Paul is a very, very smart man.
  • 5

#5 Mr. Ambien

Mr. Ambien

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,726 posts
  • Joined: 07-April 03

Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:55 PM

Good for Dr. Ron Paul.
  • 0

#6 sedated

sedated

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,727 posts
  • Joined: 08-October 05

Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:56 PM

Drug war is dumb. But politicians who say the drug war is dumb without having a successful sytem in mind to fix it are just being politicians. It's super annoying when people bring up how Portugal made things legal and had success with it, when they DIDN'T actually make it legal, and there's still fines and penalties attached to it.. and the huge thing of.. well.. PORTUGAL NOT BEING THE SAME AS THE STATES OR CANADA.

People in the States and even here have a particularly strange moral compass and sense of entitlement. It honestly makes me cringe the thought of it being easier for some of the stupid younger people here to get access to drugs that in all likelihood would make them even more stupid.

I would do something crazy. Like, decriminalize it, but require a license to be able to hold or use the drugs. Make people go through a class or course somewhere that educated them on the dangers of drugs, and tell them about support for any addictions, and to discuss and hammer it in about the laws and fines that will still apply before they're even allowed to touch it. But this doesn't take away from the fact that even if the government makes it available and a choice, you'd get shady ass people trying to sell it for cheaper to still try and make money off of it. There would be so many things and such an effort to try and make it a viable thing. The culture over here is very much one of indulgence. People talk about it like it's so simple, but it's not. Politicians do the same thing.
  • 2

#7 nucklehead

nucklehead

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,398 posts
  • Joined: 23-March 03

Posted 08 March 2013 - 07:12 PM

You had to be living on Saturn for the last 20 years to not know this.
  • 1
biggerabacus_zps5cae10b6.jpg

I got kicked out of the slut walk for trying to bid on the participants.

-BananaMash

#8 Lockout Casualty

Lockout Casualty

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,005 posts
  • Joined: 06-December 12

Posted 08 March 2013 - 07:53 PM

Ron Paul is a very, very smart man.


While Paul is right in this case, and a few others, majority of his policies are ridiculous. That said, I'd still have voted for him over either Romney or Obama. It's not that he's smart, it's that he's honest about the way things really are.
  • 2
“Hi Nigel, just a quick note to say that I am always ready to do exactly what is asked but it would have been a great help to know in advance what the strategy was.”

- Carolyn Stewart Olsen, Conservative Senator.

#9 etsen3

etsen3

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,552 posts
  • Joined: 02-July 10

Posted 08 March 2013 - 07:54 PM

The sad thing is, this should be common sense.
  • 1

#10 KoreanHockeyFan

KoreanHockeyFan

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,499 posts
  • Joined: 04-January 07

Posted 08 March 2013 - 09:03 PM

Like Lockout Casualty said above, he's probably the only genuine politician out in America. He's a a little too out of touch for me with his economic policies but he's pretty much got it down with his stance on social policies.

Too bad he's not in congress anymore. Hopefully his son can follow-up, but he hasn't looked as good recently...
  • 0

#11 Scott Hartnell's Mane

Scott Hartnell's Mane

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,211 posts
  • Joined: 14-December 12

Posted 09 March 2013 - 05:29 AM

If Paul ever decided to put together a serious run for the White House he'd have support from me. As long as the pachyderms and the jackasses remain in control...this fruitless 'war' will continue. The war on drugs has failed almost as brilliantly as the 'war on terror'...someone needs to tell the cons that 'terror' is a tactic, and 'terrorists' is not an ethnic group. thanks. Terror is not a Middle Eastern country full of brown people that they can bomb the frack out of. Drug war has failed as I have said many times because they've focused attentions on the wrong drugs. They arrest responsible pot smokers while completely ignoring the methamphetamine and crack problem...then you've got kids as young as 15 getting prescriptions for insane pharm drugs like hydrocodone and adderall and ritalin and paxil from these clueless quacks...selling them to kids their same age and younger in school, and the government really has no one but themselves to blame for the stranglehold the pharmaceutical companies have them in. Another fine example of attention to detail here in 'Murica.

Edited by Scott Hartnell's Mane, 09 March 2013 - 05:35 AM.

  • 0
Posted Image

Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#12 nucklehead

nucklehead

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,398 posts
  • Joined: 23-March 03

Posted 09 March 2013 - 07:07 AM

someone needs to tell the cons that 'terror' is a tactic, and 'terrorists' is not an ethnic group.


Someone needs to explain it to the American people at large. I think the warmongers are entirely aware of these facts. That's why they sold it as the hundred year war.
  • 0
biggerabacus_zps5cae10b6.jpg

I got kicked out of the slut walk for trying to bid on the participants.

-BananaMash

#13 Wetcoaster

Wetcoaster

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,454 posts
  • Joined: 26-April 04

Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:10 AM

This not the first warning from Texas about not going down the incarcerate everyone connected to drugs strategy.

The CBC had an excellent piece in 2011 about how Texas completely changed its approach - oddly enough towards the traditional Canadian approach that is now being abandoned by the the CPC.


Conservatives in the United States' toughest crime-fighting jurisdiction — Texas — say the Harper government's crime strategy won't work.


"You will spend billions and billions and billions on locking people up," says Judge John Creuzot of the Dallas County Court. "And there will come a point in time where the public says, 'Enough!' And you'll wind up letting them out."


Adds Representative Jerry Madden, a conservative Republican who heads the Texas House Committee on Corrections, "It's a very expensive thing to build new prisons and, if you build 'em, I guarantee you they will come. They'll be filled, OK? Because people will send them there.


"But, if you don't build 'em, they will come up with very creative things to do that keep the community safe and yet still do the incarceration necessary."


These comments are in line with a coalition of experts in Washington, D.C., who attacked the Harper government's omnibus crime package, Bill C-10, in a statement Monday.


"Republican governors and state legislators in such states of Texas, South Carolina, and Ohio are repealing mandatory minimum sentences, increasing opportunities for effective community supervision, and funding drug treatment because they know it will improve public safety and reduce taxpayer costs," said Tracy Velázquez, executive director of the Washington-based Justice Policy Institute.


"If passed, C-10 will take Canadian justice policies 180 degrees in the wrong direction, and Canadian citizens will bear the costs."


A state with a record


On a recent trip to Texas, an array of conservative voices told CBC News that Texas tried what Canada plans to do – and it failed.


As recently as 2004, Texas had the highest incarceration rate in the world, with fully one in 20 of its adult residents behind bars, on parole or on probation. The Lone Star state still has the death penalty, with more than 300 prisoners on death row today. But for three decades, as crime rates fell all over the U.S., the rate in Texas fell at only half the national average.


That didn't change the policy — but its cost did.


Faced with a budget crisis in 2005, the Texas statehouse was handed an estimate of $2 billion to build new prisons for a predicted influx of new prisoners.


They told Madden to find a way out. He and his committee dug into the facts. Did all those new prisoners really need to go to jail? And did all of those already behind bars really need to be there?


Madden's answer was, no. He found that Texas had diverted money from treatment and probation services to building prisons. But sending people to prison was costing 10 times as much as putting them on probation, on parole, or in treatment.


"It was kinda silly, what we were doing," says Madden. Then, he discovered that drug treatment wasn't just cheaper — it cut crime much more effectively than prison.


That was the moment, he says, when he knew: "My colleagues are gonna understand this. The public is gonna understand this.…The public will be safer and we will spend less money!"


His colleagues agreed. Texas just said no to the new prisons.


Instead, over the next few years, it spent a fraction of the $2 billion those prisons would have cost — about $300 million — to beef up drug treatment programs, mental health centres, probation services and community supervision for prisoners out on parole.


It worked. Costs fell and crime fell, too. Now, word of the Canadian government's crime plan is filtering down to Texas and it's getting bad reviews.


Marc Levin, a lawyer with an anti-tax group called Right on Crime, argues that building more prisons is a waste of taxpayers' money.


"We've see a double-digit decline in the last few years in Texas, both in our prison incarceration rate and, most importantly in our crime rate," says Levin.


"And the way we've done it is by strengthening some of the alternatives to prison."


The statistics bear him out. According to the Texas Department of Corrections, the rate of incarceration fell 9 per cent between 2005 and 2010. In the same period, according to the FBI, the crime rate in Texas fell by 12.8 per cent.


By contrast, Levin says, the Canadian government has increased the prison budget sharply, even though crime in Canada is down to its lowest level since 1973.


In fact, federal spending on corrections in Canada has gone up from $1.6 billion in 2005-06, when Stephen Harper's Conservatives took power, to $2.98 billion in 2010-11. That's an increase of 86 per cent. Soon, it will double.


Federal corrections budget: Canada

2005–06 $1.6 billion

2010–11 $2.98 billion

2012–13 $3.13 billion


The Harper government has already increased prison sentences by scrapping the two-for-one credit for time served waiting for trial. Bill C-10 would add new and longer sentences for drug offences, increase mandatory minimums and cut the use of conditional sentences such as house arrest.


In each case, Texas is doing the opposite.


So are several other states — egged on by a group of hardline conservatives who have joined the Right on Crime movement. These include Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, former Speaker Newt Gingrich, the tax-fighter Grover Norquist and the former attorney general for President Ronald Reagan, Ed Meese.


That's not a list of liberals. Marc Levin says Canada is out of step with the best conservative thinking south of the border.


"We've seen in the United States, states and conservative leaders moving in a much different direction than the Conservative Party is saying in Canada," he says.


"I think the conservative thing to do is to be cost-effective and to hold offenders accountable. And, frankly, for many of them, they go to prison, they don't pay child support, they don't have to work in the private sector, they don't pay restitution — I don't believe that's holding people accountable."


Hugging criminals? In Texas?


What Levin means by accountability is what happens at Judge John Creuzot's drug court in Dallas.


Thieves, drug addicts and drunk drivers must file into Creuzot's courtroom each week as a condition of their sentences. They're on probation with the threat of prison hanging over them. They must prove they are keeping up with their drug treatment.


Creuzot cajoles, threatens and lectures them to stick with the program — but he also rewards them when they succeed. If they graduate from treatment, clean and sober, he holds an awards ceremony in his courtroom. Then, he gives them a big, back-slapping Texas hug.


"Congratulations, bro!" he says as he wraps his arms around a hulking ex-addict. "Proud of ya!" he says as he hugs another and places a medal around her neck.


Hugs? From a judge in the state that gave us chain gangs?


It's not your father's Texas. But Creuzot isn't all hugs. He renders a blunt verdict when he is asked what's wrong with the Harper government's plan to get criminals off Canadian streets.


"Nothing, if you don't mind spending a lot of money locking people up and seeing your crime rate go up! Nothing wrong with it at all!"


Creuzot says prison just doesn't work as well as the less expensive methods he uses — because, one way or another, drugs and alcohol lie at the root of 80 per cent of crimes.


"What we've learned," he says, "is that if you deal with those underlying issues with the proper assessments up front, doing that before you make a sentencing decision … and you fund programs that will deal with that on a long-term basis, that you avoid sending thousands of people to prison."


But isn't all the treatment expensive?


"It's less expensive!" Creuzot snaps. "We had a university do a cost-benefit analysis. And every dollar we spend is worth $9 and 34 cents in avoided criminal justice costs."


Other studies in Texas agree that treatment and probation services cost about one-tenth of what it costs to build and run prisons. Besides that, offenders emerge much less likely to commit fresh crimes than those with similar records who go to prison.


Getting results


At Phoenix House, a drug treatment centre in Wilmer, just south of Dallas, Dr. Teresa May-Williams is a forensic psychologist, paid to assess the risk of letting offenders out on parole or in treatment. She's found that prison is even riskier.


"We can't ignore the fact that our ‘tough on crime' stance that puts a person in prison and assumes that their drug problem will somehow magically disappear while they're incarcerated and they'll never get out again and offend, is ridiculous!" she says.


May-Williams says most offenders with drug or alcohol problems quickly resume their criminal lifestyle when they get out of prison.


"The data showed that 60 per cent of those individuals will be out and committing a new crime in, on average, about 11 months."


That's four times the rate of those who go through her six-month program instead.


"A big focus of it is getting their drug problem under control," she says, "and then beginning to work on education, job training, getting them employed, getting them focused on becoming a tax payer rather than a tax user. The recidivism rate for probation, the same kind of offender, is somewhere around 15-16 per cent."


A 'hopeless' case


Equally striking is that even the hardest cases can respond to court-ordered treatment.


Kathryn Griffin, by her own account, was a "hopeless" case.


Loquacious, loud and candid, Griffin had six felonies on her record — for drug possession and prostitution — so she was facing 35 years to life in jail when she came to court in Houston, yet again.


"I'm a person who had a $30,000-a-month cocaine habit for 22 years!" she says. But, "I am totally clean and sober today."


And she's stayed clean for eight years — because, she says, she was a "guinea pig" in what was, back then, a new experiment: drug court.


The judge gave her a choice: get clean in drug treatment or flunk out — and die in prison.


She made it. Now, she has a job counselling street prostitutes, pays taxes and tells anyone who will listen that Texas, too, has changed its ways.


"What I like about this state and our government is they are willing to listen, look, study, learn and see results."


Left, right and middle-of-the-road Texans are recommending that Canada do the same — and the conservatives most of all.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/10/17/pol-vp-milewski-texas-crime.html
  • 0
To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#14 thedestroyerofworlds

thedestroyerofworlds

    Canucks Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,786 posts
  • Joined: 11-July 07

Posted 10 March 2013 - 02:11 PM

Posted Image

IF you've seen this, you know already know what Paul said. The Drug War is a waste of money and resources.
  • 0

#15 silverpig

silverpig

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,456 posts
  • Joined: 09-February 03

Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:19 AM

I agree with him on the drugs piece, but most everything else he says is loony.

If you allow industries to regulate themselves, they will slash and burn everything there is for a buck today, leaving nothing for tomorrow. It is up to the government to ensure things are sustainable, fair, and safe because we know the industries won't do it themselves.
  • 2
Moo

#16 thad

thad

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,184 posts
  • Joined: 09-February 09

Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:57 AM

I agree with him on the drugs piece, but most everything else he says is loony.

If you allow industries to regulate themselves, they will slash and burn everything there is for a buck today, leaving nothing for tomorrow. It is up to the government to ensure things are sustainable, fair, and safe because we know the industries won't do it themselves.


Exactly.. That's my problem with conservatism in general. While I don't think the government should have too much control they need to have some because greed will always overpower what is right.

The people that build or run a multi billion dollar company got where they are because they're usually pretty slimey individuals. If you put a gun in their hand and a ten year old girl from a third world country in front of them and said your business with double in value if you shoot her and nobody will ever know.. They would most definitely pull the trigger.

I absolutely hate what Harper is doing to our identity right now but couldn't even imagine having to live under the rule of a conservative in the USA.
  • 1

#17 Mr. Ambien

Mr. Ambien

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,726 posts
  • Joined: 07-April 03

Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:24 AM

Exactly.. That's my problem with conservatism in general. While I don't think the government should have too much control they need to have some because greed will always overpower what is right.

The people that build or run a multi billion dollar company got where they are because they're usually pretty slimey individuals. If you put a gun in their hand and a ten year old girl from a third world country in front of them and said your business with double in value if you shoot her and nobody will ever know.. They would most definitely pull the trigger.

I absolutely hate what Harper is doing to our identity right now but couldn't even imagine having to live under the rule of a conservative in the USA.

You can't make much money off dead people.

You have some poor misconceptions that might require undoing of many years of institutionalised anti-capitalistic proselytism in order to have a more objective basis on.

What is "right" is about as subjective as it gets, which is exactly why less government interference in our lives (within reason) is good, not more.

Government does not ensure things are fair, government ensures things are the way government wants it. The more authority given to government means the more this is true.

Edited by Aleksandr Pistoletov, 11 March 2013 - 09:28 AM.

  • 0

#18 J.R.

J.R.

    Rainbow Butt Monkey

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,367 posts
  • Joined: 04-July 08

Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:18 AM

You can't make much money off dead people.

You have some poor misconceptions that might require undoing of many years of institutionalised anti-capitalistic proselytism in order to have a more objective basis on.

What is "right" is about as subjective as it gets, which is exactly why less government interference in our lives (within reason) is good, not more.

Government does not ensure things are fair, government ensures things are the way government wants it. The more authority given to government means the more this is true.


How's that Kool-Aid?

There needs to actually be a happy medium. Corporations need a certain level of freedom to thrive and innovate. Governments needs the ability/power to ensure that that thriving and innovation don't come at the cost of it's people, the environment etc.

Unfortunately right now the problem isn't that governments have too many watchdog programs etc. The problem is that the corporations are running the government watchdog programs. When you have things like the head of the FDA being either former or future employees (or both) of huge food and/or pharmaceutical companies, the food & drug safety of the people gets pushed as a secondary concern to profits for those companies, which is what's happening now.

If you honestly think companies should be allowed even MORE freedom than that...you're very misguided.

Edited by J.R., 11 March 2013 - 11:18 AM.

  • 2
"Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you."
- Neil deGrasse Tyson

Posted ImagePosted Image

#19 thad

thad

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,184 posts
  • Joined: 09-February 09

Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:06 PM

You can't make much money off dead people.

You have some poor misconceptions that might require undoing of many years of institutionalised anti-capitalistic proselytism in order to have a more objective basis on.

What is "right" is about as subjective as it gets, which is exactly why less government interference in our lives (within reason) is good, not more.

Government does not ensure things are fair, government ensures things are the way government wants it. The more authority given to government means the more this is true.


No doubt there needs to be changes In the way government works and it starts with the way elections are won and politicians are bought.

If you think a billionaire wouldn't shoot you in the head if it got him more money, you're the one in need of a reality check, buddy. What I said was a metaphor, not literal .. Giving corporations the freedom to turn their heads on something that hurt the people they are selling product and services to in order to make money, is exactly what's wrong with the world today.

I'm not anti-capitalist, I like capitalism but capitalism is failing because of the freedom these a-holes have to screw everyone over.. You think the massive crash we had at the end of bush's presidency was the result of corporations not having enough freedom?? Give your head a shake! Lol
  • 1

#20 Tru_Knyte

Tru_Knyte

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,355 posts
  • Joined: 25-December 05

Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:13 PM

This not the first warning from Texas about not going down the incarcerate everyone connected to drugs strategy.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...exas-crime.html


Jesus. Is Harper too conservative even for Texas?

Edited by Tru_Knyte, 11 March 2013 - 12:13 PM.

  • 0
Posted Image

#21 J.R.

J.R.

    Rainbow Butt Monkey

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,367 posts
  • Joined: 04-July 08

Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:32 PM

Jesus. Is Harper too conservative even for Texas?


Don't ask Jebus. He's in on it with him ;)
  • 0
"Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you."
- Neil deGrasse Tyson

Posted ImagePosted Image

#22 Dittohead

Dittohead

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,190 posts
  • Joined: 13-August 04

Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:40 PM

He makes too much sense. So he will not get elected. The establishment have the people where they want them. @ their mercy.

Change we can Believe in!
  • 1

#23 wizeman

wizeman

    Comets Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 29-December 12

Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:44 PM

Ron Paul is awesome!
  • 0

#24 thad

thad

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,184 posts
  • Joined: 09-February 09

Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:49 PM

Dbl post

Edited by thad, 11 March 2013 - 12:51 PM.

  • 0

#25 thad

thad

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,184 posts
  • Joined: 09-February 09

Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:50 PM

Jesus. Is Harper too conservative even for Texas?


Hahaha it's unbelievable eh.. I remember hearing about that and thinking wtf. Your heroes are telling you don't do that, we just tried and it doesn't work and you still think its a sweet idea? Man are we ever doomed.. USA is falling faster than the Roman Empire and we're going down the same path.. God help us all
  • 0

#26 Mr. Ambien

Mr. Ambien

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,726 posts
  • Joined: 07-April 03

Posted 11 March 2013 - 01:53 PM

How's that Kool-Aid?

There needs to actually be a happy medium. Corporations need a certain level of freedom to thrive and innovate. Governments needs the ability/power to ensure that that thriving and innovation don't come at the cost of it's people, the environment etc.

Unfortunately right now the problem isn't that governments have too many watchdog programs etc. The problem is that the corporations are running the government watchdog programs. When you have things like the head of the FDA being either former or future employees (or both) of huge food and/or pharmaceutical companies, the food & drug safety of the people gets pushed as a secondary concern to profits for those companies, which is what's happening now.

If you honestly think companies should be allowed even MORE freedom than that...you're very misguided.

NPO's are as well, but we'll pretend your tl;dr rant has some meaning to it.

No doubt there needs to be changes In the way government works and it starts with the way elections are won and politicians are bought.

If you think a billionaire wouldn't shoot you in the head if it got him more money, you're the one in need of a reality check, buddy. What I said was a metaphor, not literal .. Giving corporations the freedom to turn their heads on something that hurt the people they are selling product and services to in order to make money, is exactly what's wrong with the world today.

I'm not anti-capitalist, I like capitalism but capitalism is failing because of the freedom these a-holes have to screw everyone over.. You think the massive crash we had at the end of bush's presidency was the result of corporations not having enough freedom?? Give your head a shake! Lol

He would have one less person to get money from if he shot you in the head, metaphor or literal interpretation.. in either version you are horribly inconsistent and make little sense. 0/10.
  • 0

#27 Electro Rock

Electro Rock

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,633 posts
  • Joined: 17-March 04

Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:17 PM

Jesus. Is Harper too conservative even for Texas?


Dallas isn't really conservative anymore, though the surounding area still is for certain.

Anyway it bears repeating that legalization could well make the crime problem worse, although it ewould probably take away a lot of the justification for the militarization of the police and all these recent surveillance measures.
  • 0
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

Norman Thomas

#28 Pouria

Pouria

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,933 posts
  • Joined: 25-October 08

Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:39 PM

Paul for Prime Minister!


I rather have Ron Paul than an idiot like Harper.
  • 0

Posted Image


#29 J.R.

J.R.

    Rainbow Butt Monkey

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,367 posts
  • Joined: 04-July 08

Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:42 PM

NPO's are as well, but we'll pretend your tl;dr rant has some meaning to it.


What amounts to two paragraphs is too long for you to read...
  • 2
"Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you."
- Neil deGrasse Tyson

Posted ImagePosted Image

#30 key2thecup

key2thecup

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,920 posts
  • Joined: 28-November 07

Posted 11 March 2013 - 04:19 PM

I agree with him on the drugs piece, but most everything else he says is loony.

If you allow industries to regulate themselves, they will slash and burn everything there is for a buck today, leaving nothing for tomorrow. It is up to the government to ensure things are sustainable, fair, and safe because we know the industries won't do it themselves.


The same gov't that gets bought by the big corporations?
  • 0

Dr. Ron Paul 2016!

 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Canucks.com is the official Web site of The Vancouver Canucks. The Vancouver Canucks and Canucks.com are trademarks of The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership.  NHL and the word mark and image of the Stanley Cup are registered trademarks and the NHL Shield and NHL Conference logos are trademarks of the National Hockey League. All NHL logos and marks and NHL team logos and marks as well as all other proprietary materials depicted herein are the property of the NHL and the respective NHL teams and may not be reproduced without the prior written consent of NHL Enterprises, L.P.  Copyright © 2009 The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership and the National Hockey League.  All Rights Reserved.