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[Article] Canucks hold first closed doors players only meeting, all agree something missing


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#181 Gretzky's Mullet

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:24 PM

My point was without the ref's clamping down on the clutch and grab;

The Sedin's in particular tend to play effectively but not at Art Ross pace... At 185 lbs, and not boasting top NHL speeds, physical match ups are all the more effective if you get away with a little more...

It's why I have always argued for Kassian to play with them? He can bust match ups for them. Plus it free's Burrows to ignite other lines, like he did late last year when we resumed, gulp, our quest for the PC. Quenneville gets high marks from me for playing a rookie, Saad, on his top line and living with his mistakes because he accomplishes exactly that!

The problem is that Kassian sucks. He's too slow, not good enough with the puck, takes shifts off and can't make passes effectively. Burrows should probably get shuffled around the lineup a little to get him going, but not to push Kassian to the Sedin line. I think it'd be better to put Hansen with the Sedins and Burrows with Booth and Ebbett. Hopefully they can bring PInnizotto in soon too.

Sedins-Hansen
Burrows-Ebbett-Booth
Raymond-Lapierre-Higgins
Weise-Pinizotto-Sestito

(obviously that 4th line won't play much, when Kesler is back he'll bump Ebbett to it and Sestito to the press box to join Kassian where he belongs)
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#182 Walkin'2929

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:13 PM

Something needs to happen. But, the buck really stops at MG's door. He needs to get the goalie situation resolved and trade for some power forwards. Right now, this team is not even close to being able to put up a successful playoff run, particularly against the mentality of the East Coast slugger-teams.
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#183 shadowgoon

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:47 PM

The only thing that I can say is that this team in it's current iteration is broken. There seems to be a lot of hoping for things to return to normal, rather than creating a new normal.

We legitimately have a 1st line, followed by 9 3rd line players, at this current stage of health, backed up by a pretty solid T3 defensive core (Hamhuis, Tanev, Garrison).

While I'll admit that anything could happen in the playoffs, it likely won't: Post season play is a fairly accurate indictment of the type of play shown in the regular season.

I feel that a major shake up is required this off season, a new culture, a new identity. A new coach.

As for the balance of this season and any potential (yes, potential) playoff berth it's up to the players already here to decide if they want it badly enough. If the answer is yes, then I think the team leaders ought to air out their concerns directly to Gillis. The talent is here, they just for whatever reason can't seem to motivate themselves; that to me screams "coach has lost the room".

Certainly for AV to keep his job it's Stanley Cup or bust, and based upon the subpar play outside of our own division, and the play of other top contending teams in the league this season, I just don't see any comparison whatsoever.

This droll diatribe is coming from a 24 year fan of the Canucks, I've seen the good the bad and the ugly. This my friends is teetering on post 1995, pre Messier era, and it scares me.
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#184 Socrates

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:17 PM

The only thing that I can say is that this team in it's current iteration is broken. There seems to be a lot of hoping for things to return to normal, rather than creating a new normal ...

... I feel that a major shake up is required this off season, a new culture, a new identity. A new coach.
,..

Excellent post. I will only suggest that you stopped a little short (coach): MG mismanaged the contracts, look at the cap situation and compare it to that of ANA, LAK etc. As I keep saying, the owners have fallen asleep at the wheel. Sad.
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#185 shadowgoon

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:43 PM

Excellent post. I will only suggest that you stopped a little short (coach): MG mismanaged the contracts, look at the cap situation and compare it to that of ANA, LAK etc. As I keep saying, the owners have fallen asleep at the wheel. Sad.


Well let's be honest. I can legitimately see Booth, Ballard, Raymond, Malhotra, and one of Schneider/Luongo gone in the off season through free agency, trade or amnesty buyout. That takes between 17 and 19 million off of our existing salary. With Schroeder hopefully having a good taste of the NHL this season and Kassian looking to get better, Jensen looking to make the leap next along with Lack as the back up we might not be that bad off.

Corrado, Andersson and Connauton are all progressing as well.

Our depth isn't bad, and could get even better should Gillis be ballsy enough to trade Edler along with one of our Goaltenders (Schneider) could bring us that legitimate Top 6 depth we've been desperately needing for so long.

Think for a second about this at the deadline:

To VAN:

David Clarkson
Adam Larson
Johan Hedberg

To NJ:

Cory Schneider
Alex Edler
1st round pick (Conditional on Clarkson re-signing), 3rd otherwise

Use the amnesty buyout for Booth, potentially Ballard and go after Perry in the off-season (I know he's a punk but he's a rather talented one)

Next year:

Sedin (6.1) - Sedin (6.1) - Perry (7.5)
Burrows (4.5) - Kesler (5.0) - Clarkson (3.75)
Kassian (0.870) - Schroeder (1.125) - Jensen (0.894)
Sestito (0.670) - Lapierre (1.0) - Hansen (1.3)

Hamhuis (4.5) - Bieksa (4.6)
Garrison (4.6) - Larsson (0.925)
Alberts (1.75) - Tanev (1.75)

Luongo (5.33)
Hedberg (1.4)

0.636M Under the cap next season. Lack develops one more year in the AHL, then Hedberg retires, gives us a couple years to deal with rising RFA contracts by letting the cap rise (which it will). Luongo warrants a stay here, I've long been an advocate of selling him, but in a couple years Lack will be where Schneider is now development wise and all appearances are that he's just as talented and capable as Schneider. By the time Luongo is ready to relegate his role as a true back up, Lack will be able to take over without controversy.

Plus, Luongo is in his prime right now, I see him having at least 2-3 more elite years before be begins to really decline, as as we all know goaltending hasn't really been an issue as much as we think in the playoffs, it's largely been a lack of scoring.

A healthy Kesler between Burrows and Clarkson is a smash mouth in your face 2nd line, and Perry with the Twins would be absolute dynamite. Not to mention a pretty good 3rd line in Kassian-Shroeder-Jensen and a helluva 4th line.

Edited by Shadowgoon, 11 March 2013 - 08:52 PM.

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#186 allkill326

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:46 PM

Well let's be honest. I can legitimately see Booth, Ballard, Raymond, Malhotra, and one of Schneider/Luongo gone in the off season through free agency, trade or amnesty buyout. That takes between 17 and 19 million off of our existing salary. With Schroeder hopefully having a good taste of the NHL this season and Kassian looking to get better, Jensen looking to make the leap next along with Lack as the back up we might not be that bad off.

Corrado, Andersson and Connauton are all progressing as well.

Our depth isn't bad, and could get even better should Gillis be ballsy enough to trade Edler along with one of our Goaltenders (Schneider) could bring us that legitimate Top 6 depth we've been desperately needing for so long.

Think for a second about this at the deadline:

To VAN:

David Clarkson
Adam Larson
Johan Hedberg

To NJ:

Cory Schneider
Alex Edler
1st round pick (Conditional on Clarkson re-signing), 3rd otherwise

Use the amnesty buyout for Booth, potentially Ballard and go after Perry in the off-season (I know he's a punk but he's a rather talented one)

Next year:

Sedin (6.1) - Sedin (6.1) -Perry (7.5)
Burrows (4.5) - Kesler (5.0) - Clarkson (4.0)
Kassian (0.870) - Schroeder (1.125) - Jensen (0.894)
Sestito (0.670) - Lapierre (1.0) -Hansen (1.3)

Hamhuis (4.5) - Bieksa (4.6)
Garrison (4.6) - Larsson (0.925)
Alberts (1.75) - Tanev (1.75)

Luongo (5.33)
Lack (0.750)

63.3M = 1M under the cap


Do you honestly think Vancouver will give up Schneider and Edler for Clarkson and Larsson? This is ludicrous.

Clarkson is a declining and an aging player. Please know that.
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#187 Tearloch7

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:51 PM

The problem is that Kassian sucks. He's too slow, not good enough with the puck, takes shifts off and can't make passes effectively. Burrows should probably get shuffled around the lineup a little to get him going, but not to push Kassian to the Sedin line. I think it'd be better to put Hansen with the Sedins and Burrows with Booth and Ebbett. Hopefully they can bring PInnizotto in soon too.

Sedins-Hansen
Burrows-Ebbett-Booth
Raymond-Lapierre-Higgins
Weise-Pinizotto-Sestito

(obviously that 4th line won't play much, when Kesler is back he'll bump Ebbett to it and Sestito to the press box to join Kassian where he belongs)


Is that you Alain? .. geez boy, relax .. having an opinion is one thing .. accusing Kesler of anything unmanly is out of line .. B)
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#188 allkill326

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:53 PM

Is that you Alain? .. geez boy, relax .. having an opinion is one thing .. accusing Kesler of anything unmanly is out of line .. B)


Kesler hasn't been as productive as many fans would expect over the last few months. With the exception of 10/11 season, he has not been an exceptional force in Vancouver. Compounded with this injury, it seems that trading him for the right price is crucial to improving this team. What do you think, Alain? (I'm kidding; No offense.)
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#189 shadowgoon

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:57 PM

Do you honestly think Vancouver will give up Schneider and Edler for Clarkson and Larsson? This is ludicrous.

Clarkson is a declining and an aging player. Please know that.


It's a mix of immediate needs plus future. Larsson is projected to be miles above any ceiling Edler could hope to achieve, and he's a big bodied RH shot we need with 1st pairing potential.

Clarkson is 28, and just came off a 30 goal season, I'd be happy with consistent 20G/20A performances with a mix of physicality and in your face play. Who beside Burrows and Daniel can you see scoring 20G consistently on our current roster within the next 2-3 years? Hell, if we got 60 goals out of our 2nd line, in addition to whatever the 1st line with a potential Perry addition I think we'd be doing alright, and with Lack waiting in the wings I'm more than comfortable giving up Schneider as we still have Luongo to fall back on.

On Larsson:

Talent Analysis

Upon first glance at his numbers, one might not be overly impressed. But there is much more to Larsson’s game than numbers. He is a workhorse, capable of logging major minutes in all situations. He has played with uncommon poise for a player of his age in a league against men in the Swedish Elite League the past two years. Simply put, there aren’t very many holes in Larsson’s game. He is the complete package, capable of taking over a game with his size, skating and elite two-way skills. He’s likely not going to ever contribute elite offensive numbers from the backend, but he is more than capable of rushing the puck end-to-end, making great stretch passes with his superb vision and unleashing a hard and accurate point shot.



This trade would be about leveraging an asset they have good supply of (G and D) to boost an immediate lack of (T6, giving time for young guys to develop) and bolstering the D with a franchise player

For New Jersey it's about giving up a franchise D for a 2nd tier (by comparison) D and gaining a franchise G to replace their current aging franchise G. It's a hockey trade, through and through.

Edited by Shadowgoon, 11 March 2013 - 09:09 PM.

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#190 playboi19

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:57 PM

Very happy I was in California this past week. No hockey coverage to be seen and it was actually refreshing.
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#191 c-a-n-u-c-k-s

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:36 AM

This shows the leadership on this team. Perfect timing to call a meeting, and while I've always believed the reason we've played so poorly all season is our coaching systems, it's good to see Henrik call a meeting and get the players to understand this situation.

In this case, punishment is what's needed. Player's who aren't playing with urgency or jump need a kick in the pants if anything and AV delivers. Say what you want, he's a top-10 if not top-5 NHL coach and knows how to get the best out of his players.

He doesn't know how to get the best out of his players. The canucks don't win unless someone has a brilliant game whether goalie or sedins... they don't win the close ones and they don't with the OT/SO ones

Therefor AV does NOT know how to get the best out of his players this year. If he doesn't have some star player shining... it's massive fail everywhere. AV needs to go imo. This is the first year I believe that. Was a supporter until now.

Edited by c-a-n-u-c-k-s, 12 March 2013 - 12:36 AM.

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#192 Gretzky's Mullet

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:00 AM

Is that you Alain? .. geez boy, relax .. having an opinion is one thing .. accusing Kesler of anything unmanly is out of line .. B)

I called Kesler unmanly? I don't remember doing that.
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#193 Nevlach

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:08 AM

Remember in 2009 when we lost 9 straight and still won the division and made it to the second round?? Gotta keep faith.
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#194 tas

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:15 AM

Remember in 2009 when we lost 9 straight and still won the division and made it to the second round?? Gotta keep faith.


keep faith that the team can fail, like in 2009? i'd personally far rather them miss the playoffs than win the division and lose in the 2nd round.
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#195 BigRedMachine

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:15 AM

Remember in 2009 when we lost 9 straight and still won the division and made it to the second round?? Gotta keep faith.


Our division might have been even weaker then. And losing in the 2nd round ain't all that exciting.
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#196 DaMacNamedDre

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:52 AM

Well let's be honest. I can legitimately see Booth, Ballard, Raymond, Malhotra, and one of Schneider/Luongo gone in the off season through free agency, trade or amnesty buyout. That takes between 17 and 19 million off of our existing salary. With Schroeder hopefully having a good taste of the NHL this season and Kassian looking to get better, Jensen looking to make the leap next along with Lack as the back up we might not be that bad off.

Corrado, Andersson and Connauton are all progressing as well.

Our depth isn't bad, and could get even better should Gillis be ballsy enough to trade Edler along with one of our Goaltenders (Schneider) could bring us that legitimate Top 6 depth we've been desperately needing for so long.

Think for a second about this at the deadline:

To VAN:

David Clarkson
Adam Larson
Johan Hedberg

To NJ:

Cory Schneider
Alex Edler
1st round pick (Conditional on Clarkson re-signing), 3rd otherwise

Use the amnesty buyout for Booth, potentially Ballard and go after Perry in the off-season (I know he's a punk but he's a rather talented one)

Next year:

Sedin (6.1) - Sedin (6.1) - Perry (7.5)
Burrows (4.5) - Kesler (5.0) - Clarkson (3.75)
Kassian (0.870) - Schroeder (1.125) - Jensen (0.894)
Sestito (0.670) - Lapierre (1.0) - Hansen (1.3)

Hamhuis (4.5) - Bieksa (4.6)
Garrison (4.6) - Larsson (0.925)
Alberts (1.75) - Tanev (1.75)

Luongo (5.33)
Hedberg (1.4)

0.636M Under the cap next season. Lack develops one more year in the AHL, then Hedberg retires, gives us a couple years to deal with rising RFA contracts by letting the cap rise (which it will). Luongo warrants a stay here, I've long been an advocate of selling him, but in a couple years Lack will be where Schneider is now development wise and all appearances are that he's just as talented and capable as Schneider. By the time Luongo is ready to relegate his role as a true back up, Lack will be able to take over without controversy.

Plus, Luongo is in his prime right now, I see him having at least 2-3 more elite years before be begins to really decline, as as we all know goaltending hasn't really been an issue as much as we think in the playoffs, it's largely been a lack of scoring.

A healthy Kesler between Burrows and Clarkson is a smash mouth in your face 2nd line, and Perry with the Twins would be absolute dynamite. Not to mention a pretty good 3rd line in Kassian-Shroeder-Jensen and a helluva 4th line.


Adding perry and clarkson would show me that MG is serious about keeping his job
Those 2 are exactly why this team needs. I would try and upgrade Schroeder as well but otherwise I like your roster. Make it so gillis
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Posted ImageBodee, on 18 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

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http://forum.canucks.com/topic/328055-whats-wrong-with-me
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#197 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:15 AM

Adding perry and clarkson would show me that MG is serious about keeping his job
Those 2 are exactly why this team needs. I would try and upgrade Schroeder as well but otherwise I like your roster. Make it so gillis


Unfortunately Perry is not going to be willing to sign in Vancouver for moneyball money and Gillis is probably not willing to give up enough assets to get him anyway.

Clarkson would also take giving significant value back so again MG probably wont be willing to do that.

Edited by wallstreetamigo, 12 March 2013 - 11:15 AM.

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#198 shadowgoon

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:46 AM

Unfortunately Perry is not going to be willing to sign in Vancouver for moneyball money and Gillis is probably not willing to give up enough assets to get him anyway.

Clarkson would also take giving significant value back so again MG probably wont be willing to do that.


I wish that people would realize that Gillis' "moneypuck" approach to salary was not specifically tied to the dollar amount, but more for the intangible statistics relative to the salary being paid over and above the traditional statistics that most people look for. It was about finding hidden value wherever possible.

To believe that Gillis would not be willing to give up value from a position of strength to gain value to cover a weakness would be to call him a hypocrite for expecting a high rate of return for either Luongo or Schneider. Perry would be worth every penny of a 7.5M AAV.

Unfortunately for Gillis he is not in a position where he can afford to be unwilling to do what it takes to improve this team. The prevailing logic as to why the Sedin's were 100 point players in the 2010/2011 season is not because of Ehrhoff as many allude to, it's because that team was firing on all cylinders and practically every line was a threat. This forced other teams to spread their defensive coverage as best they could to mitigate the majority of threats at any given time. This lead to opportunities for the Sedin's that they are not seeing now because through injury and not living up to potential / other ancillary issues, the Canucks this season are a 1 line team.

Being a one line team allows opposing teams to zero in their coverage and take advantage of hodgepodge line combinations and the like; this is a management (coaching) issue. However despite all that, the Sedin's are still performing at a PPG pace which is nothing short of incredible.

Bottom line, if Gillis is unwilling to do what it takes to improve this club, he is unfit to lead this team from a management perspective; that being said for having kept Alain Vigneault for as long as he has had with no discernible or quantitative expectation that things might actually change or get better is on him.

Basing the performance on winning Presidents trophies on the backs of dominating a seriously deficient division, and maintaining an average performance against the rest of the league is a faux pas. The Canucks haven't been a *great* team for a while, they have been a good to above average team since the half way mark of the 2010-2011 season.

People who fail to realize that need to take off their blinders and seriously and objectively look at all aspects of this team. Gillis touting about hiring sleep doctors, and analyzing this and analyzing that is all perimeter stuff; it doesn't directly translate to a winning culture, it creates a "Country Club/Good ol' Boys Club" mentality where subpar performance is rewarded with the lap of luxury.

The players need to be held accountable for their performance as a team by the coach. If the coach is unable to hold the players accountable, then the GM is accountable to provide the pieces the coach requires. If that fails, the GM has one of two options: continue with the coach and assemble an entirely different cast (difficult to do) that compliments the coach or find a coach that can bring a completely new approach and bring the players in line.

If the GM fails to follow this seemingly obvious logic, then the onus is on the Owner to hold the GM accountable, and suffice it to say if it escalates to that point then there's really only one option: Find a new GM who hopefully has the objectivity to look at a situation, identify what's not working (coaching, certain players) and fix what's broken.

Edited by Shadowgoon, 12 March 2013 - 11:47 AM.

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