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Was team toughness and size oversold?


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#1 Lui's Knob

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:50 PM

Thinking talent still wins over size and toughness? Did we add the wrong type players and lost our identity of 4 running lines?
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#2 Van40

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:57 PM

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No. Were just not good enough. Aside from the sedins, theres a bunch of 3rd liners on this team. We could use a riberio type of playmaker and a right handed defencemen
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#3 CanucksSayEh

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 10:00 PM

We really aren't much bigger nor tougher than before.
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#4 thad

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 10:04 PM

Didnt have to sell it to anyone, it's pretty obvious what kind of teams won the cup the past 2years.


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#5 Kevin Biestra

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 10:05 PM

Not really. It just hasn't been implemented properly.

We would have been fine just keeping Torres and Salo and then adding one more guy with some toughness and skill.

Instead, we loaded up on 4th liners to the point that we're losing them on waivers and gave up Hodgson for Kassian.
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#6 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 10:18 PM

We had an identity of running 4 lines? Since when?
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#7 Lui's Knob

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 10:19 PM

Go back to when sundin was here and then the scf
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#8 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 05:33 AM

Well; In context I think its great we swapped Jeff Tambelini for Tom Sestito.

Who we really miss;

220 & 215 lb seasoned veterans Manny Malhotra and Raffi Torres. Gone, and no depth defensive line with speed and size you can trust to play againdt Getzlaf or Joe Thornton!

Erhoff; his ability to move the puck and get everyone involved (our 3rd best play maker also, behind Danny & Hank!)

Kesler; MIA

Salo

This week, Bieksa also...




Aside from that it is great we have Kassian! :bigblush:

edit; sarcasm > we're probably tougher OP, we're just pale by comparison to two years ago?

Thinking talent still wins over size and toughness? Did we add the wrong type players and lost our identity of 4 running lines?


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 11 March 2013 - 10:45 AM.

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#9 EagleShield

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 05:46 AM

We traded skill players for big players, when what we need is big skill players.
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#10 tas

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 06:14 AM

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they dumped skill for size to a degree but are playing the same cowardly "play for the powerplay" type of game.

this team is convinced that the only thing broken is the powerplay and have therefore invested all their time and efforts in trying to fix it, when in reality they should be saying "to hell with powerplays, let's win 5 on 5 and treat powerplays like a bonus" like every other team with a pair of balls does.

Edited by tas, 11 March 2013 - 06:14 AM.

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#11 riffraff

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 06:47 AM

Only thing oversold is "depth" players and we aren't any tougher or bigger.
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CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#12 DaMacNamedDre

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:50 AM

Ryan Clowe and Brandon Dubinsky please.
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Posted ImageBodee, on 18 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I haven't been a supporter of the Canucks for long. Mainly because firstly I know nothing about NHL and secondly ESPN America only started showing NHL 3 years ago.

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/328055-whats-wrong-with-me
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#13 Bodee

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:57 AM

Thinking talent still wins over size and toughness? Did we add the wrong type players and lost our identity of 4 running lines?


It wasn't oversold........he just didn't deliver. Size and toughness when you are talking about one of the biggest markets in the NHL are guys like Clowe, Ryan, Neil, Sbisa............

Sestito f---- me, I'd rather watch Volpatti, at least the guy had to come up against men with 30 lbs on him before he looked outmatched.
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#14 Bodee

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:58 AM

they dumped skill for size to a degree but are playing the same cowardly "play for the powerplay" type of game.

this team is convinced that the only thing broken is the powerplay and have therefore invested all their time and efforts in trying to fix it, when in reality they should be saying "to hell with powerplays, let's win 5 on 5 and treat powerplays like a bonus" like every other team with a pair of balls does.


I like reading your posts. Spot on and to the point.

Why are so many on here babbling on about firing AV when it is the guy who is supposed to be the "team builder" who constantly sells him short? Not that AV is impressing me just now either mind.

Edited by Bodee, 11 March 2013 - 08:01 AM.

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#15 skyfall

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:19 AM

If I was constructing a team I'd take pure offensive talent over grit and then make sure that the offensive talent develops toughness and defensive skills. It seems like the Canucks would rather have forwards that are defensively sound first then develop offense later which I think is wrong especially with fairly strong goaltending. A winning team should be trained to kill on offense and depending on who the team is, play defense accordingly. Either sit back then explode in transition or take it to them and demoralize them. The Canucks just want to keep things close though then hope for a bounce which I think is high effort, low value and demoralizing for the players and the fans.
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#16 spliced

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:38 AM

It was misunderstood. People were focused on toughness deep in the line up but the main issue was with the Sedins. Many people just can't face this reality so they focus elsewhere.

On the Sedins behalf I will say they were relied on to carry a lot of the scoring. If the team had given them better support with some quality prospects that could shoulder more the load against the big physical playoff teams things may have been different.
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#17 Gretzky's Mullet

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:53 AM

It's easier to teach a gifted scorer to play defence than to get a grinder to develop offensive skill. Sadly, people look at how Kesler blossomed and think it's possible for anyone. It all goes back to the Hodgson trade for me, here is the one guy in the entire system with untapped scoring potential, hockey smarts, the intangibles you can't teach and that no forward on the team not named Sedin really has. And Gillis trades him away for a big body. Naslund for Stojanov in reverse.
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#18 Gretzky's Mullet

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:03 PM

Didnt have to sell it to anyone, it's pretty obvious what kind of teams won the cup the past 2years.

Yep, and remember that David Krejci, all 6'0 180 lbs of him, led the team in scoring that year. Patrice Bergeron, who's never had 30 PIM in a season, was also deadly. Brad Marchand is a dirty rat, but he's 5'9. Last year, Dustin Brown played big, but he's really only the size of Jannik Hansen. Anze Kopitar is big, but is good because of his skill. Same with Jeff Carter.

Size is only an effective weapon when the player is also skilled. Joe Thornton and Rick Nash are big and hard to defend, but largely because of what they can do with the puck. The Canucks have plenty of big solid guys, but almost none of them have much skill. And if you have to pick one or the other, skill without size (see Kane, Patrick; Tavares, Jon; Stamkos, Steven) is better than size without skill.
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#19 hockeywoot

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:25 AM

Overblown. Boston isn't even THAT big. The pug twins in Lucic/Horton are big. Their 4th line is big. Their D is big. Recchi/Krejci/Marchand/Bergeron/Seguin/Kelly/Ryder....not exactly. Their team is gritty/chippy compared to us.

LA on the other hand...is a pretty big team.

Building things for the future, adding a bit of size and grit is a good way to go.
This team could stand to add a bit of size+skill to its top 6/core.

Kassian is a step in the right direction.
Of course, skill is more important than size or toughness.
You don't want to sacrifice too much skill for size.

A super talented team of midgets will almost always lose to an almost as talented, team of giants.

Answer lies somewhere in the middle.
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#20 Baggins

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:15 AM

The most important two secrets to playoff success: get hot at the right time and stay healthy.
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#21 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:22 AM

It's easier to teach a gifted scorer to play defence than to get a grinder to develop offensive skill. Sadly, people look at how Kesler blossomed and think it's possible for anyone. It all goes back to the Hodgson trade for me, here is the one guy in the entire system with untapped scoring potential, hockey smarts, the intangibles you can't teach and that no forward on the team not named Sedin really has. And Gillis trades him away for a big body. Naslund for Stojanov in reverse.


sorry but he was 2nd in goals in the NHL after 7 games playing on the top line. he was hitting , fighting and dominating like cam neely.

then AV in his brillance bury's him on the 4th line

stop whining about cody. if av had 1/2 a brain kassian would be playing with the sedins and still performing very well.

i guarantee you he is not stojanov, and hodgson is no naslund it was an even trade and if our player was utilzed correctly you'd see it.

Edited by BuretoMogilny, 12 March 2013 - 06:22 AM.

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#22 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:30 AM

Overblown. Boston isn't even THAT big. The pug twins in Lucic/Horton are big. Their 4th line is big. Their D is big. Recchi/Krejci/Marchand/Bergeron/Seguin/Kelly/Ryder....not exactly. Their team is gritty/chippy compared to us.

LA on the other hand...is a pretty big team.

Building things for the future, adding a bit of size and grit is a good way to go.
This team could stand to add a bit of size+skill to its top 6/core.

Kassian is a step in the right direction.
Of course, skill is more important than size or toughness.
You don't want to sacrifice too much skill for size.

A super talented team of midgets will almost always lose to an almost as talented, team of giants.

Answer lies somewhere in the middle.


Agree. Somewhere along the way MG really messed up the 'mix' of this team.

1. Kassian, yes step in the right direction but he needs to be used with the Sedins - AV is an idiot

2. Gaunce and Jensen, Gaunce grit, Jensen size but not a hitter, but uses it like Sundin, protecting the puck etc so again good picks who should help this team down the road.

3. Right now..issues. When they let Torres go for 700k well that was stupidity. The guy was an intimidator, a hitter, with speed, and would drop them and score. Perfect third line agitator.

4. Manny is a bigger loss than people realize (healthy manny). He was one of the best shut down centers in the league, a great player on the PK and top 3 in faceoffs, which was also big on the pk and just defensively. If you win a vast majority of draws in your own end and get possession its hard for the other team to score. This is something not really being talked about on the forums but I am sure, that our faceoff % is probably one of the worst in the league with Kesler out and Manny gone. This never helps your gaa. MG needs to replace him, somehow, before the playoffs. Either Lappy has to move to 4 and you find a 3 or go find a REAL 4.

5. Booth, size, doesn't use it. Speed great, no hands. Trade him for a guy who gets in on the forecheck like Hansen, but has size. Doesn't even need to have great hands, just able to pot 15-20 but can get in and force turnovers and play the boards. Put that guy with Kesler and Burrows.

6. Kassian needs to be on the top line. No use having speed, size, hands, and the willingness to use them all, lacking that on your top two and then playing him on the 4th. Again AV's decisions confuse me. but whatever , flogging the dead horse.
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#23 Ride the red Pony

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:10 AM

It's easier to teach a gifted scorer to play defence than to get a grinder to develop offensive skill. Sadly, people look at how Kesler blossomed and think it's possible for anyone. It all goes back to the Hodgson trade for me, here is the one guy in the entire system with untapped scoring potential, hockey smarts, the intangibles you can't teach and that no forward on the team not named Sedin really has. And Gillis trades him away for a big body. Naslund for Stojanov in reverse.



I think you can refer to Kassian in the same manner,untapped scoring potential, hockey smarts, sure he isn't as polished as CoHo, but Snaggletooth has two intangibles that Coho will never have and can't be taught, that being size and toughness.
It all falls on AV for not using the asset the way he should.
"Naslund for Stojanov in reverse." this comment strikes me as odd, and you lost any credibilty that you may have gained by making it.
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#24 Ride the red Pony

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:39 AM

It's easier to teach a gifted scorer to play defence than to get a grinder to develop offensive skill. Sadly, people look at how Kesler blossomed and think it's possible for anyone. It all goes back to the Hodgson trade for me, here is the one guy in the entire system with untapped scoring potential, hockey smarts, the intangibles you can't teach and that no forward on the team not named Sedin really has. And Gillis trades him away for a big body. Naslund for Stojanov in reverse.


Good read here for ya Mullet, educate before ye proclomates.
http://canucksarmy.c...n-alek-stojanov
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#25 DaMacNamedDre

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:55 AM

Every year playoffs turn savage . Ryan clowe and either Brendan morrow or Dubinsky would be most welcome at this point
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Posted ImageBodee, on 18 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I haven't been a supporter of the Canucks for long. Mainly because firstly I know nothing about NHL and secondly ESPN America only started showing NHL 3 years ago.

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/328055-whats-wrong-with-me
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#26 Kryten

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:22 AM

As previously mentioned, it isn't one way or the other when comparing skill with team toughness and size. So instead of being oversold, it has been incredibly undersold since it is possible to have both. That being said, it will take some time for the right pieces to fall in place.
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#27 pdc

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:24 AM

Its a copycat league unfortunately. So are most of sports leagues. OP brings up an interesting topic, if there was a smaller quicker team with 4 line of scoring against a team like LA. I have a hard time believing they couldn't create a gameplan where they could use their speed to their advantage.

Think outside of the box go a different direction than every other team. Means players would be slightly cheaper since you value different skills than what the typical team values. Play a faster game than teams are used to and you could tire these big teams out. Would definitely be interesting, and I don't think anyone with certainty can say it wouldn't work.

But I think the team just needs to commit to a style. It seems like we transitioning to becoming a bigger grittier team. It's not an easy transition and if you thought it would be seamless without any growing pains, well you are getting proven wrong right now. We will be fine as long in time.
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#28 gizmo2337

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:29 AM

It is not oversold, and here is why.

In the finals, the ref's don't want to decide the game, and put away the whistle. This has been happening for years with complaints of ref consistency from many teams. When it's skill vs size in the finals and penalties aren't called for all the banging and cheap shots, the size wins after wearing down the skill team. For this reason, we need to keep the size.

Size not as applicable to regular season.
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#29 Legend Killer

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:34 AM

Not really. It just hasn't been implemented properly.

We would have been fine just keeping Torres and Salo and then adding one more guy with some toughness and skill.

Instead, we loaded up on 4th liners to the point that we're losing them on waivers and gave up Hodgson for Kassian.

Torres was a bigger factor in our success than people think, he ignited a fire under everybody.
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For the first time in a long time.. the future looks bright..

#30 pdc

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:48 AM

It is not oversold, and here is why.

In the finals, the ref's don't want to decide the game, and put away the whistle. This has been happening for years with complaints of ref consistency from many teams. When it's skill vs size in the finals and penalties aren't called for all the banging and cheap shots, the size wins after wearing down the skill team. For this reason, we need to keep the size.

Size not as applicable to regular season.


Just because a team may be smaller and faster doesn't mean they need to rely in the refs to win a game. That was Canucks gameplan but doesn't mean it has to be.
Make a big gritty team chase the smaller quicker team all game try to keep up with the pace they set. It's not inconceivable that they would tire, it's hard to constantly hit and grind a team you can't catch.
Different sport but Chip Kelly certainly made his name from employing a similar concept.
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