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Loyalty vs. Business


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#1 canuck028

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:01 PM

I wanted to pose a question to CDC. This is not a trolling topic, nor one to anger users. Just a question to better understand the world/business of professional sports.

I've been a canucks fan my whole life. The Sedins are two of the greatest players to ever suit up for this organization. They have taken pay cuts to stay in vancouver and are respected on and off the ice. Their demeanor is nothing but respectable and involvement in the community is admirable. They definitely deserve to retire with the canucks organization if desired.

This is where my question arises.

Where does a franchise draw the line between loyalty and business?

Follow up questions:

- Does such a line exist?
- Is player loyalty necessary in a multi-billion dollar entity such as the NHL?
- Players make millions of dollars to play a game they love, why or why not should loyalty exist?
- Should professional sports strictly be seen as a business?

Many athletes are spoiled. They make a ton of money and do nothing in return. Many forget where they come from. I would like to know what CDC thinks about whether or not professional organizations should be obligated to show players loyalty and allow them to end their careers with their respected clubs. If trading certain players, such as the Sedins, betters the organization should the higher ups realize its best for business?

The canucks are currently struggling. We all know this as fans. If trading the Sedins brought us draft picks, or a few up and comers, is the franchise (from a business approach) obligated to do this. Set aside all the "we're in win now mode" and unbiasedly answer. I am souly using the canucks and Sedins as an example.

Another example: Calgary and Iginla.

Consider any sport. Any franchise. Any player.

Thanks.
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#2 Erik Karlsson

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:04 PM

I think if we weren't that close to being cup contenders, which I think we are, just need a few more pieces, then I would be absolutely fine with trading the twins for some high draft picks or young and up and coming stars.

But since it looks like we can maybe make a push for the cup the next few years and how loyal the twins have been I think they should retire here.
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#3 Canucks fan in chicago

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:05 PM

The Sedins won't leave Vancouver. Even if they have to take a paycut, they won't leave. Guaranteed.
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#4 Kevin Biestra

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:07 PM

Every team draws its own line.

Some consider the Islanders too loyal to Potvin, Bossy, Billy Smith etc., with almost the whole dynasty retiring as Islanders and the team never ditching them for prospects. I respected the Islanders for that.

On the other hand, some are ultra-mercenary.

Nobody from the Oilers dynasty retired an Oiler.

I think there's value in having the Sedins retire as Canucks, even if we suck a little worse for a year or two afterward.
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#5 skyfall

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:08 PM

When loyalty doesn't lead to added value or discounts then you draw the line.
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#6 Twilight Sparkle

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:09 PM

well if a player can't produce anymore they lay out the options. it's the deal with markus naslund. he was loyal to this organization, but the team was moving in a different direction. markus felt he could still play and decided to move on to new york, but shortly after retired, but still regarded as a canuck

it'll be the same deal with the twins, they'll remain on this team until they retire. honestly, i don't see them playing in to their 40's and still be top tier performers on this team. it's possible since they're two of the most conditioned athletes in the league, but when the time comes, they'll know it and won't play for anyone else. they will retire as canucks
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#7 Kevin Biestra

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:11 PM

well if a player can't produce anymore they lay out the options. it's the deal with markus naslund. he was loyal to this organization, but the team was moving in a different direction. markus felt he could still play and decided to move on to new york, but shortly after retired, but still regarded as a canuck

it'll be the same deal with the twins, they'll remain on this team until they retire. honestly, i don't see them playing in to their 40's and still be top tier performers on this team. it's possible since they're two of the most conditioned athletes in the league, but when the time comes, they'll know it and won't play for anyone else. they will retire as canucks


Modano in Detroit.
Bourque in Colorado.
Marcel Dionne on the Rangers.
Darryl Sittler in Philadelphia.
Bobby Orr in Chicago.
Bernie Federko in Detroit.

I wouldn't make any bold predictions. It takes two to tango.
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#8 Legend Killer

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:19 PM

I think management is too loyal to the coaching staff. Anybody can tell that we have problems. If we went to the finals against even the flyers, i think they'd eat us alive physically.
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#9 canuck028

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:24 PM

My point is that these guys make millions of dollars to play a sport. Far more than the average civilian makes. Why should there be loyalty shown when as people, they are severely overpaid. Lets get real, it's sport.

I respect the Sedins and loyal athletes, but I don't think there should be a line. If at any time a trade is available to make an organization better, you take it.

These guys are professionals. They need to understand like anything else, professional sports is a business.

I don't mean to sound like an arrogant prick just my opinion. Athletes make insane amounts of money when it comes to contracts, endorsements, bonuses etc... that loyalty becomes irrelevant.

If you could trade both Sedins for two up and coming rookies that you knew would be great players would you?

I notice so many people are high on Jensen and gaunce. Young players give us as fans promise and optimism.

With all due respect to henrik and Daniel, I think if we could trade them now or in the near future, in a deal that stabilized the canucks organization going forward, the canucks have to do it.

As pro athletes, would they understand why?
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#10 Kevin Biestra

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:34 PM

My point is that these guys make millions of dollars to play a sport. Far more than the average civilian makes. Why should there be loyalty shown when as people, they are severely overpaid. Lets get real, it's sport.

I respect the Sedins and loyal athletes, but I don't think there should be a line. If at any time a trade is available to make an organization better, you take it.

These guys are professionals. They need to understand like anything else, professional sports is a business.

I don't mean to sound like an arrogant prick just my opinion. Athletes make insane amounts of money when it comes to contracts, endorsements, bonuses etc... that loyalty becomes irrelevant.

If you could trade both Sedins for two up and coming rookies that you knew would be great players would you?

I notice so many people are high on Jensen and gaunce. Young players give us as fans promise and optimism.

With all due respect to henrik and Daniel, I think if we could trade them now or in the near future, in a deal that stabilized the canucks organization going forward, the canucks have to do it.

As pro athletes, would they understand why?


I'm sure they would understand why, but I don't see what athletes' salaries has to do with loyalty really.
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#11 PlayStation

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:38 PM

A good example is Manning getting traded out of Indy, arguably the best quarterback ever, but they dumped him in order to not pay him a huge bonus, though he was coming off an injury. Then they drafted another stud in Andrew Luck.

But what would you guys say about Gillis not offering Markus Naslund a contract at all? That sure pissed me off :/
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#12 Pineapples

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:56 PM

It turns fans away to trade the face of the franchise just to better prepare for the future.

Sedins should not be traded no matter what. Same goes for Alfie, Brodeur, Datsyuk, etc.

Teams that trade them are classless.
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#13 Justin6Schultz

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:02 PM

.

Edited by Justin6Schultz, 24 March 2013 - 06:05 AM.

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#14 Gollumpus

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:26 PM

Modano in Detroit.
Bourque in Colorado.
Marcel Dionne on the Rangers.
Darryl Sittler in Philadelphia.
Bobby Orr in Chicago.
Bernie Federko in Detroit.

I wouldn't make any bold predictions. It takes two to tango.


I think I get your meaning, however, what motivated these guys to play on with other teams might not be factors in the case of the Sedins.

Modano probably wanted wanted one more kick at the Cup, and when Dallas said they weren't going to re-sign him as they were "going in a different direction", he signed as a UFA with the Wings. They dumped him.

Bourque asked to be traded when the Bruins were looking like they weren't going anywhere, and was moved to Colorado. Won a Cup the following year and then retired. He dumped them.

Marcel Dionne was having issues with Kings management and coaching, and asked for a trade from LA, supposedly to encourage the team to make some moves to improve their situation at the time. They did, by moving him to the Rangers. They kind of dumped each other.

Darryl Sittler had to suffer with freaking Harold Ballard for his entire career in Toronto. He should have been elected to the Hall just on that basis alone. Sittler was relieved to have gotten out of Toronto by the time he was moved. By the time he was finally moved Sittler was so mentally worn down that he chose to retire rather than play on for another 3 or so years. (FUN FACT: the Canucks offered Sittler a contract, but he opted for retirement) Team management harassed him so much, he was glad to be dumped.

Bobby Orr. The Greatest Hockey Player Ever. He had a heart ready and full to play, however, he had no knees by the time he moved to Chicago. His departure from Boston as a UFA was not on the greatest of terms.

Bernie Federko was traded by his team when it looked like he was starting to decline.


Each of these guys weren't on the greatest of terms with the management of their team when they left. This is not the situation with the Sedins (or at least not yet, and there isn't any indication which I have seen that there is a schism growing between them).

I don't see them being on poor terms with management, and there is still a pretty good chance to contend for the Cup with this team (despite what the Nattering Nabobs of Negativism have to say on the issue). If the Canucks haven't won a Cup in the next 3 - 4 years, and there doesn't look like there is a realistic chance that they can win one in the next one or two seasons after that, then if the need to win a Cup is that strong in the Sedins, I could see them pulling a Bourque and ask to be traded, or perhaps just sign as UFA's with another team.

However, I suspect that they will merely call it day, say thanks for all the good times, and then retire.

regards,
G.
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#15 Gollumpus

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:30 PM

If you could trade both Sedins for two up and coming rookies that you knew would be great players would you?


You mean trade the Sedins for up and coming rookies that we know would be great players, just like Stefan and Brendl were supposed to be?

regards,
G.
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#16 David Booth

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:32 PM

well if a player can't produce anymore they lay out the options. it's the deal with markus naslund. he was loyal to this organization, but the team was moving in a different direction. markus felt he could still play and decided to move on to new york, but shortly after retired, but still regarded as a canuck

it'll be the same deal with the twins, they'll remain on this team until they retire. honestly, i don't see them playing in to their 40's and still be top tier performers on this team. it's possible since they're two of the most conditioned athletes in the league, but when the time comes, they'll know it and won't play for anyone else. they will retire as canucks

Fo sho. Canucks gave them the chance to play together. They should be loyal to our Vancouver regime.
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#17 Phil_314

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:58 PM

I'd look at the trade Ryan Smyth allowed the Oilers to make in sending him to the Islanders at the deadline for two prospects and a 1st. I mean he wanted his money and that's acceptable, but when the team didn't want to afford him anymore and they dealt him he was emotional at leaving the town and promised to bring the Cup back to Edmonton if he won it with the Isles. What's more, even though he was on a rising team in the Kings (they weren't elite yet back then but they were playoff-caliber), he still wanted to go back to play out his contract in Edmonton Oiler colors.

Now Ryan knew that business had to be done (he had to go since he wouldn't fit in their plans given his salary), but his loyalty remained with the Oil and he asked to return there when he could. I hope that, if the Canucks ever tanked and rebuilt entirely, the Twins would be like Ryan in that they'd ask to be traded back here at the end of their careers, similar to what Linden did.

Edited by g@m3b0i, 11 March 2013 - 09:00 PM.

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#18 elvis15

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:48 PM

Since it's in Canucks Talk, I'll make my answer Canucks specific. Gillis has has repeatedly said he'll consider any deal that improves our team, but weigh that against him also saying he won't ask any player with an NTC to waive it as they've earned it. The first part is business, the second is loyalty.
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