CB007 Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 There are lots of Arabic only signs here in Toronto in the Arabic 'parts' of the city. It's cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wetcoaster Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I understand this thread has a lot of legal value and all that, but I think the objection many people have, but are unable to articulate, is an abstract problem, not really a legal or technical one. Seems to me it's a rejection of the failed idea of multiculturalism in Vancouver. Vancouver is a city divided, literally, by pockets of minorities. And while each minority continues to grow, it causes undeniable anxiety for surrounding minority enclaves. Vancouver seems sold on its own virtue simply by existing, because it certainly has no culture to speak of, and it is only "multicultural" in that it harbours multiple cultures. None of these cultures have any incentive for intermingling or integration, because there is no clear "Canadian identity," or even as microcosm of that, there is no "Vancouver identity" and therefore there is no assimilation required. Whether you think assimilation is a good thing or not is up to you, but I believe that is a moral or abstract issue, not really a legal one. The objection I think many people feel is how our "multiculturalism" seems to be nothing more than minorities (whether they are white, chinese, indian, russian, whatever) serving their own minority. And the resulting anxiety, I believe, is an extension of the anxiety people share in the paradoxical search for both identity and culture as they grow and try to create a home or family or whatever. It's tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 I do not see multiculturalism as a failure. The failure I see is people failing to grasp what multiculturalism entails and advocating some version of the US model of assimilation and the melting pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prana16 Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 More and more Chinese. Less and less English. More and more "me first" attitude. Less and less polite Canadian culture. The first time I left North America was in 2005. I held a door open for someone in China and they stared at me as they whisked into the building. I've unfortunately experienced the same thing a few times in the past few years in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jägermeister Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Those darned Italians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wetcoaster Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 You are mistaken Kazin.. wetcoaster assures us all that there is no canadian culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockhart Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 There is no official culture as Trudeau stated in the House of Commons when introducing multiculturalism as an official policy. “...there cannot be one cultural policy for Canadians of British and French origin, another for the original peoples and yet a third for all others. For although there are two official languages, there is no official culture, nor does any ethnic group take precedence over any other. No citizen or group of citizens is other than Canadian, and all should be treated fairly.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockhart Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 There are lots of Arabic only signs here in Toronto in the Arabic 'parts' of the city. It's cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wetcoaster Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 He's a politician, what do you expect him to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Am sorry you feel that way but am telling it like how it is. I don't care who you are, where you are from and what you do, but you better be able to speak a bit of English if you are living in Canada unless you are living in Quebec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 I want to figure something out then, Wet. It's no secret that our school system teaches in English (first and foremost). That the hospitals are run as such. So what is the ESL program all about? If Chinese people don't "have" to speak English and can put signs in only their native tongue, do they build schools and hospitals then? Or do we continue to find a way to cater to them? It is obviously an expense to have these programs in place....free programs in order for people to learn English. So that's an unnecessary burden on our tax dollars, as they don't HAVE to learn English and don't want to - you're right, that's their right. But, like it or not, there still are two official languages of the country...even if it means that people don't have to speak/learn them....so how do we address this if people refuse to learn the language? How do we reach out to them? You're suggesting it's ok to say "we have a right to put only this language here...if you don't like it, don't come" but that then works in reverse. You can't speak English in the school system?....don't come? Is that what you're suggesting? Of course not...there should be some effort to meet in the middle in a "multi" anything. That's what some of us are getting at. I mean the (sad for you?) truth is that our schools and hospitals are based on the English language....they have been for years. So if people arriving are not learning English, how does that impact those systems? For you have to conclude that if people don't cater to English on their signs and in their businesses, that that's how they live their lives. So how are they to be educated and cared for should they get sick? Makes it a little difficult. It's for practical purposes, so beyond rights and not wanting to learn, doesn't this create problems? If there is to be an extra effort in a move of inclusion in the best interest of all in translating from English to Chinese languages, shouldn't that also be suggested in reverse? Or do we all take that stand - "I don't care if you can't understand"? No one ever suggested not having Chinese signs...but guess what? If you have English too people will actually start to learn the Chinese languages, through way of familiarity. Would that not be a good thing? I believe it would be...so open your mind to the fact that some people have a long term goal that isn't necessarily an evil one. That it could be something that benefits ALL...multi beneficial. It is very much a cake and eat it too deal if you suggest anything less. And I'm not suggesting that we do this, however, by your explanation of "multi", this would be ok? To continue in our schools in the language(s) that have always been here/the culture and not worry about those who can't join in? Again, just asking as I am trying to learn from other views than my own. But I've never had any problem with the fact that there are ESL programs...why bother then? The school systems are already busting at the seams for funding so is this not unncecessary if the goal isn't for us all to be able to communicate? I think that's the aim in these programs, but if we don't support it outside the school system what's the point? Wet, you're suggesting that we don't have to, so doesn't it apply across the board? Should kids not go to Chinese language schools if there is no desire to learn the language...we can then eliminate these programs and focus on English/French language separate from Chinese languages? Separate them. This is what your mindset caters to. You can't promote these ideas in one situation (private businesses) but not consider how it transfers over in a day to day setting. And the people screaming "racist" simply don't have rebuttals....as much as people are allowed to keep their culture/language...it's also a place where we can still ask questions and learn. Again - stereotyping really is a cousin of racism, so your own back yards may require attention if your only answers are to name call. I am clearly trying to figure out how this benefits all of us, including Chinese, if we don't extend an arm to one another to both learn a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 I want to figure something out then, Wet. It's no secret that our school system teaches in English (first and foremost). That the hospitals are run as such. So what is the ESL program all about? If Chinese people don't "have" to speak English and can put signs in only their native tongue, do they build schools and hospitals then? Or do we continue to find a way to cater to them? It is obviously an expense to have these programs in place....free programs in order for people to learn English. So that's an unnecessary burden on our tax dollars, as they don't HAVE to learn English and don't want to - you're right, that's their right. But, like it or not, there still are two official languages of the country...even if it means that people don't have to speak/learn them....so how do we address this if people refuse to learn the language? How do we reach out to them? You're suggesting it's ok to say "we have a right to put only this language here...if you don't like it, don't come" but that then works in reverse. You can't speak English in the school system?....don't come? Is that what you're suggesting? Of course not...there should be some effort to meet in the middle in a "multi" anything. That's what some of us are getting at. I mean the (sad for you?) truth is that our schools and hospitals are based on the English language....they have been for years. So if people arriving are not learning English, how does that impact those systems? For you have to conclude that if people don't cater to English on their signs and in their businesses, that that's how they live their lives. So how are they to be educated and cared for should they get sick? Makes it a little difficult. It's for practical purposes, so beyond rights and not wanting to learn, doesn't this create problems? If there is to be an extra effort in a move of inclusion in the best interest of all in translating from English to Chinese languages, shouldn't that also be suggested in reverse? Or do we all take that stand - "I don't care if you can't understand"? No one ever suggested not having Chinese signs...but guess what? If you have English too people will actually start to learn the Chinese languages, through way of familiarity. Would that not be a good thing? I believe it would be...so open your mind to the fact that some people have a long term goal that isn't necessarily an evil one. That it could be something that benefits ALL...multi beneficial. It is very much a cake and eat it too deal if you suggest anything less. And I'm not suggesting that we do this, however, by your explanation of "multi", this would be ok? To continue in our schools in the language(s) that have always been here/the culture and not worry about those who can't join in? Again, just asking as I am trying to learn from other views than my own. But I've never had any problem with the fact that there are ESL programs...why bother then? The school systems are already busting at the seams for funding so is this not unncecessary if the goal isn't for us all to be able to communicate? I think that's the aim in these programs, but if we don't support it outside the school system what's the point? Wet, you're suggesting that we don't have to, so doesn't it apply across the board? Should kids not go to Chinese language schools if there is no desire to learn the language...we can then eliminate these programs and focus on English/French language separate from Chinese languages? Separate them. This is what your mindset caters to. You can't promote these ideas in one situation (private businesses) but not consider how it transfers over in a day to day setting. And the people screaming "racist" simply don't have rebuttals....as much as people are allowed to keep their culture/language...it's also a place where we can still ask questions and learn. Again - stereotyping really is a cousin of racism, so your own back yards may require attention if your only answers are to name call. I am clearly trying to figure out how this benefits all of us, including Chinese, if we don't extend an arm to one another to both learn a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Those darned Italians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wetcoaster Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 I want to figure something out then, Wet. It's no secret that our school system teaches in English (first and foremost). That the hospitals are run as such. So what is the ESL program all about? If Chinese people don't "have" to speak English and can put signs in only their native tongue, do they build schools and hospitals then? Or do we continue to find a way to cater to them? It is obviously an expense to have these programs in place....free programs in order for people to learn English. So that's an unnecessary burden on our tax dollars, as they don't HAVE to learn English and don't want to - you're right, that's their right. But, like it or not, there still are two official languages of the country...even if it means that people don't have to speak/learn them....so how do we address this if people refuse to learn the language? How do we reach out to them? You're suggesting it's ok to say "we have a right to put only this language here...if you don't like it, don't come" but that then works in reverse. You can't speak English in the school system?....don't come? Is that what you're suggesting? Of course not...there should be some effort to meet in the middle in a "multi" anything. That's what some of us are getting at. I mean the (sad for you?) truth is that our schools and hospitals are based on the English language....they have been for years. So if people arriving are not learning English, how does that impact those systems? For you have to conclude that if people don't cater to English on their signs and in their businesses, that that's how they live their lives. So how are they to be educated and cared for should they get sick? Makes it a little difficult. It's for practical purposes, so beyond rights and not wanting to learn, doesn't this create problems? If there is to be an extra effort in a move of inclusion in the best interest of all in translating from English to Chinese languages, shouldn't that also be suggested in reverse? Or do we all take that stand - "I don't care if you can't understand"? No one ever suggested not having Chinese signs...but guess what? If you have English too people will actually start to learn the Chinese languages, through way of familiarity. Would that not be a good thing? I believe it would be...so open your mind to the fact that some people have a long term goal that isn't necessarily an evil one. That it could be something that benefits ALL...multi beneficial. It is very much a cake and eat it too deal if you suggest anything less. And I'm not suggesting that we do this, however, by your explanation of "multi", this would be ok? To continue in our schools in the language(s) that have always been here/the culture and not worry about those who can't join in? Again, just asking as I am trying to learn from other views than my own. But I've never had any problem with the fact that there are ESL programs...why bother then? The school systems are already busting at the seams for funding so is this not unncecessary if the goal isn't for us all to be able to communicate? I think that's the aim in these programs, but if we don't support it outside the school system what's the point? Wet, you're suggesting that we don't have to, so doesn't it apply across the board? Should kids not go to Chinese language schools if there is no desire to learn the language...we can then eliminate these programs and focus on English/French language separate from Chinese languages? Separate them. This is what your mindset caters to. You can't promote these ideas in one situation (private businesses) but not consider how it transfers over in a day to day setting. And the people screaming "racist" simply don't have rebuttals....as much as people are allowed to keep their culture/language...it's also a place where we can still ask questions and learn. Again - stereotyping really is a cousin of racism, so your own back yards may require attention if your only answers are to name call. I am clearly trying to figure out how this benefits all of us, including Chinese, if we don't extend an arm to one another to both learn a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonLever Posted March 22, 2013 Author Share Posted March 22, 2013 I understand this thread has a lot of legal value and all that, but I think the objection many people have, but are unable to articulate, is an abstract problem, not really a legal or technical one. Seems to me it's a rejection of the failed idea of multiculturalism in Vancouver. Vancouver is a city divided, literally, by pockets of minorities. And while each minority continues to grow, it causes undeniable anxiety for surrounding minority enclaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeromotacanucks Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Yeah! What the hell does PIZZERIA mean anyways??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Bang Boogie Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Those darned Italians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violator Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 The sign's not in English. Does this mean I can take all the pizza? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violator Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 English is not supposed to be a "superior language" enforced by way of government fiat. That is the whole point of our multiculturalism policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wetcoaster Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 I think in maybe 10-20 years a prime minister will say multiculturalism has failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.