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Chinese Signs Out Of Hand in Richmond Says Petition


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#91 Wetcoaster

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:25 PM

When I go to a store and find out it only caters to Chinese ppl, I start greeting them with "Herrrooo". Works everytime.

And why do you think acting like a racist bigot achieves anything?
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#92 Pouria

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:35 PM

It is pretty funny that I can come across more signs that are in English in freaking China than I do in Richmond. I really find it pretty pathetic that Richmond is probably the only place in North America which has signs predominantly in mandarin/cantonese. English is the universal language and there is no excuse to not have English included in the signs. It doesn't matter if Richmond is predominantly Chinese, when you are living in Canada. When you have signs only in your language in this city, it will exclude not only the caucasian Canadians, but also Indo-Canadian, Filipinos, Persians, Koreans etc. I have traveled in many foreign countries where English wasn't the official language, yet they had universal symbols and/or ENGLISH in some of their signs. There should be a rule in BC that whatever language you put on a sign be translated into English. This isn't about multiculturalism, this is about having a viable form of communication that everyone in this province can understand.

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#93 Pouria

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:45 PM

My biggest concern is how it is dividing people.. Pushing us away from each other. For me.. I have white friends, Chinese friends , Japanese friends, Iranian friends , afghan friends, black friends. They all want to be Canadian, speak English and they still love and embrace their backgrounds. Just because they decided to assimilate doesn't mean they have to let their culture go.

It actually quite saddens me when I'm in a group of people and can't even join the conversation because they all don't understand English.

I experience this at work as well with a group of filipinos they have alienated themselves from the rest of the workers. They huddle together and only talk with each other, they feel everyone else is out to get them . Even though they can speak English fine.. They decide to hide from everyone else.


Funny thing is everyone outside of Canada wants to learn English yet the people that immigrate from China to Richmond could care less. Immigration policy in Canada should have a requirement for anyone immigrating here to learn one of the official languages or attend mandatory ESL classes. Some of my family members in Iran have learned the English language yet they have never planned to move out of their country. This is how significant the English language is.

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#94 GodzillaDeuce

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:48 PM

Funny thing is everyone outside of Canada wants to learn English yet the people that immigrate from China to Richmond could care less. Immigration policy in Canada should have a requirement for anyone immigrating here to learn one of the official languages or attend mandatory ESL classes. Some of my family members in Iran have learned the English language yet they have never planned to move out of their country. This is how significant the English language is.


On the subject of English: think about what that statement means

well I'm sorry that gd is soo perfect


#95 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 03:49 PM

Personally I have no problem with Chinese only signs on private property.

The last thing I agree with is anything that smacks of government intervention in this area. I have been completely opposed to what Quebec has done and IMHO this has the same sort of unneeded intervention. Let the free market determine the signage.


That's a risk the business owner is taking on (and rightfully so - it's his/her own dollars to blow)


I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels this way. (I was starting to wonder after reading the posts in this thread)

These businesses are making a choice to cater to a particular ethnic group, as is their right. If you have a problem with it, then voice your displeasure by not patronizing, not by encouraging unnecessary government intervention.
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#96 Jester13

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:18 PM

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels this way. (I was starting to wonder after reading the posts in this thread)

These businesses are making a choice to cater to a particular ethnic group, as is their right. If you have a problem with it, then voice your displeasure by not patronizing, not by encouraging unnecessary government intervention.


I agree. I used to live in the lower mainland and now live in Montreal. This topic reeks of BC English Nationalism. Even here in Montreal, with all the language stuff that still goes on, in China Town at any one of the restaurants the menus are in Chinese and most times they don't speak a lick of French or English. If you feel uncomfortable you are free to leave the restaurant. It is a business decision on their part.

This whole thing of official languages has everything to do with government services in either English or French and nothing to do with signage... correct me if I am wrong. Here in Quebec they have their ridiculous laws that pertain to businesses too, which, as I just said, is ridiculous... just like trying to force businesses in Richmond to do the same is wrong.

I wonder what people would be saying if the Chinese owners put their signs in French and asked, "quel est le problème?" Would everyone crying then say, "well it is in one of our official languages." No, you wouldn't be. You'd be crying because it isn't in the language that you speak.

Brutal.

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#97 Bob.Loblaw

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:46 PM

I agree with this. It's exclusive.

I was in my bank and they had a display of coffee, cookies, etc. and only Chinese signs on the table. It ticked me off, as there were other things and I wasn't clear on what the deal was. So I asked for the branch manager and told her that, since I could not read the signs I presumed they said "take all of this home, Deb". I picked up an entire pack of cookies and walked out, just to make my point. Which likely translated to "Deb's an ass". Whatever, it irked me.

I believe one of two official languages should always be displayed with prominence.


French is not an official BC language, though. It serves virtually no purpose in this province, since Canada probably "starts" in the Atlantic for any French-speaking foreigner.


Insular ghettos have nothing to do with business or the market. Its bad for society. It fosters division, exclusion and mistrust.



This is such a bull argument If there is no official culture then why do born and raised canadians feel they are not being respected.. I guess they are just imagining something that doesn't exist. Why are canadians recognized by others as being distinct from the english, australians, russians and to a a lesser degree americans. I like Trudeau, but his OPINION is not sacrosanct .. its just his opinion and many many canadians do not agree with it.


Watch this.

This is such a bull argument If there is no official culture then why do born and raised Quebeckers feel they are not being respected.. I guess they are just imagining something that doesn't exist. Why are Quebeckerss recognized by others as being distinct from the French, Haitians and to a a lesser degree, Acadians. I like Trudeau, but his OPINION is not sacrosanct .. its just his opinion and many many Quebeckers do not agree with it.


Edited by Bob.Loblaw, 17 March 2013 - 09:58 PM.


#98 :D

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:15 PM

I just assume all the signs are talking about me in another language

#99 Magikal

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:38 PM

Ahh yes...the ol' us vs "them" spiel. Let me introduce you to this book...I think you'll find it fascinating:

Posted Image


Give me a break. There is no us vs them. Were all in the same boat together. it's a matter of coming to an established country and learning the way the citizens of that country operate on a daily basis. We are one of if not the most accepting country towards others and their beliefs, ways of life etc. but we as citizens should not be changing our ways of life or bending to make it easier for new Canadians to adapt to our society. We have several programs that reach out to new Canadians to help them learn our languages, laws etc. all on tax payer money. There is really no excuse for immigrants to not be able to speak our languages and function in our society.

When you have a worthwhile response let me know.
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Credit to Lahey.

October1st,2013. #HistoryWillBeMade

#100 DonLever

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:51 PM

It is pretty funny that I can come across more signs that are in English in freaking China than I do in Richmond.


You must be not looking every hard but most signs in China are in Chinese. Only in tourist areas and some major cities have English Signs. All small towns and villages have signs in Chinese only.

#101 DonLever

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:56 PM

Give me a break. There is no us vs them. Were all in the same boat together. it's a matter of coming to an established country and learning the way the citizens of that country operate on a daily basis. We are one of if not the most accepting country towards others and their beliefs, ways of life etc. but we as citizens should not be changing our ways of life or bending to make it easier for new Canadians to adapt to our society. We have several programs that reach out to new Canadians to help them learn our languages, laws etc. all on tax payer money. There is really no excuse for immigrants to not be able to speak our languages and function in our society.

When you have a worthwhile response let me know.


What you are talking about is assimulation. If we follow your logic, we should adapt to the aboriginal culture, who were here first, rather than imposing our culture on them.

#102 Common sense

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:56 PM

Give me a break. There is no us vs them. Were all in the same boat together. it's a matter of coming to an established country and learning the way the citizens of that country operate on a daily basis. We are one of if not the most accepting country towards others and their beliefs, ways of life etc. but we as citizens should not be changing our ways of life or bending to make it easier for new Canadians to adapt to our society. We have several programs that reach out to new Canadians to help them learn our languages, laws etc. all on tax payer money. There is really no excuse for immigrants to not be able to speak our languages and function in our society.

When you have a worthwhile response let me know.


Sorry. No breaks given to those who thinly mask their racism through the ol' "get with the white culture or get back on your boat" language. When you want to stop using that pathetic "our" word, let me know.

For those that refuse to learn "your" language and assimilate into "your" culture, they're not receiving basic Canadian rights such as healthcare (even though we pay in a lump sum for it), voting rights, or job hiring priorities. That's the tradeoff, but hey...less people to fight over jobs, doctor's office queues, and less ethnic vote targeting schemes.

#103 Dazzle

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:26 AM

Disgusted by it, TBH.

That's saying something because I'm Asian and identify as a Canadian ONLY, even if I do speak the languages.

Surely there's something in the Charter regarding discrimination.
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#104 Dral

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 02:37 AM

Don't understand the signs because they are in another language?

There's an app for that.

You guys are literally dumb as potatoes. You can't just vote out a guy because he is too "tricky" and miles better than you...absolutely sickening


#105 Jaimito

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:45 AM

here's an article about Quebec trying to ban the word pasta on Italian menus etc.


Quebec language police try to ban 'pasta' from Italian restaurant menu

http://www.guardian....olice-ban-pasta
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#106 Jaimito

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:11 AM

more interesting reads:

"Joey Kwan, Aberdeen's promotion and public relations manager, noted to The Vancouver Sun this year: "To our surprise, based on an internal research, 70 per cent of the existing tenants don’t even have a Chinese name on their signage."

In January, Joe Greenholtz, an immigration consultant and member of the Richmond Intercultural Advisory Committee argued that Chinese-only signage had nothing to do with multiculturalism and everything to do with business. He wrote in The Richmond News:

"The store owners are making a statement about the clientele they hope to attract — most of the stores I’ve wandered into with Chinese-only signs sell products that have no appeal for me and that I often can’t even identify.
It’s not about exclusionary practices, it’s a business decision about appealing to a defined demographic. Those who take offense at that, hiding behind the idea that it is somehow un-Canadian, or diminishes the capacity of immigrants to integrate, are feeling the pain of being irrelevant in their own backyards, for the first time."

from:
http://www.huffingto...ref=mostpopular

The video on Quebec Bill 101/ language police at the bottom the link is worth while watching.



Sign language reflects business
By Joe Greenholtz, Special to the Richmond News
http://www.richmond-...l#ixzz2NefSC1bz

"Richmond’s Intercultural Advisory Committee was asked to look at the signage issue a few years ago and again last year. This time around, instead of debating only what are essentially ideological arguments, we commissioned an informal survey among RCMP officers in Richmond to find out whether there were any public safety implications. It turns out not having English signage makes it more difficult for police to respond to a call. The same would presumably be true for fire and ambulance services.
Now that is an issue that bears further investigation and might justify a requirement for mandatory English signage. The red herring of tough love to help immigrants integrate does not. Quebec had to invoke the notwithstanding clause in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to pass its language law, making it clear that imposing language requirements is not a defense of Canadian values — quite the opposite."

Edited by Jaimito, 18 March 2013 - 04:26 AM.

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#107 Wetcoaster

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:56 AM

Give me a break. There is no us vs them. Were all in the same boat together. it's a matter of coming to an established country and learning the way the citizens of that country operate on a daily basis. We are one of if not the most accepting country towards others and their beliefs, ways of life etc. but we as citizens should not be changing our ways of life or bending to make it easier for new Canadians to adapt to our society. We have several programs that reach out to new Canadians to help them learn our languages, laws etc. all on tax payer money. There is really no excuse for immigrants to not be able to speak our languages and function in our society.

When you have a worthwhile response let me know.

Here is not only a worthwhile response but one that is accurate and sets out the situation in CANADA.

You appear to have confused the US of A and Canada. And have a fundamental misunderstanding of what English as an official language means - it does NOT mean we force people to speak English.

People do not need an "excuse" - it is their choice as to the language they choose to speak. That is inherent in the concept of Canada which is declared to be a multicultural nation where no one culture is superior to another and it is about accommodating differences.

As the Canadian Multicultural Act states clearly:

AND WHEREAS the Constitution of Canada recognizes the importance of preserving and enhancing the multicultural heritage of Canadians;

...

AND WHEREAS the Constitution of Canada and the Official Languages Act provide that English and French are the official languages of Canada and neither abrogates nor derogates from any rights or privileges acquired or enjoyed with respect to any other language;

...

AND WHEREAS the Government of Canada recognizes the diversity of Canadians as regards race, national or ethnic origin, colour and religion as a fundamental characteristic of Canadian society and is committed to a policy of multiculturalism designed to preserve and enhance the multicultural heritage of Canadians while working to achieve the equality of all Canadians in the economic, social, cultural and political life of Canada;

...

MULTICULTURALISM POLICY OF CANADA


Multiculturalism policy


3. (1) It is hereby declared to be the policy of the Government of Canada to


(a) recognize and promote the understanding that multiculturalism reflects the cultural and racial diversity of Canadian society and acknowledges the freedom of all members of Canadian society to preserve, enhance and share their cultural heritage;


(b) recognize and promote the understanding that multiculturalism is a fundamental characteristic of the Canadian heritage and identity and that it provides an invaluable resource in the shaping of Canada’s future;


(c ) promote the full and equitable participation of individuals and communities of all origins in the continuing evolution and shaping of all aspects of Canadian society and assist them in the elimination of any barrier to that participation;


(d) recognize the existence of communities whose members share a common origin and their historic contribution to Canadian society, and enhance their development;


(e) ensure that all individuals receive equal treatment and equal protection under the law, while respecting and valuing their diversity;


(f) encourage and assist the social, cultural, economic and political institutions of Canada to be both respectful and inclusive of Canada’s multicultural character;


(g) promote the understanding and creativity that arise from the interaction between individuals and communities of different origins;


(h) foster the recognition and appreciation of the diverse cultures of Canadian society and promote the reflection and the evolving expressions of those cultures;


(i) preserve and enhance the use of languages other than English and French, while strengthening the status and use of the official languages of Canada; and


(j) advance multiculturalism throughout Canada in harmony with the national commitment to the official languages of Canada.


As noted we have entrenched multiculturalism in the supreme law of the land - the Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

27. This Charter shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with the preservation and enhancement of the multicultural heritage of Canadians.


Is that sufficiently worthwhile?

Edited by Wetcoaster, 18 March 2013 - 07:57 AM.

To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

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#108 Jester13

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:58 AM

here's an article about Quebec trying to ban the word pasta on Italian menus etc.


Quebec language police try to ban 'pasta' from Italian restaurant menu

http://www.guardian....olice-ban-pasta


Ah yes, 'Pastagate.' There is an awesome little cafe a 2 min walk down the street from me here on Parc Avenue in Montreal with a sign out front that is spelt Caffe instead of Cafe because his business angle is specialty Italian espresso and whatever else. He has been fighting the language police for a few years now and refuses to change his sign. He has paid thousands of dollars in fines and still refuses. Good on him. Let the market decide how businesses make their money with their target markets.

And fyi for those of you that are living in Richmond, your municipality is a large Chinatown-esque city now and has been moving in that direction for years. That is just the way the market ie. immigration, housing, business, etc has panned out over the years. If you are unhappy with the way your neighbourhood has changed you can always change neighbourhoods. But if you are expecting that your neighbourhood should cater to your needs because you have been living there for your entire life, you are sadly mistaken and, frankly, a little narcissistic.

I live in a neighbourhood that consists of Greeks, Italians, affluent Francophones, Hasidic Jews, Anglos, and hipsters. We are all different and mostly keep to ourselves. I in no way feel like it is a divisive borough that I am living in, even though there are large differences between us all, especially the Alanis-Ironic hipsters, they're so different that they have their own zip code within a zip code.

My point is that if you feel like the Chinese signs and the influx of immigration is creating a divisive society, IMO that is all in your head. City after city after city has their boroughs, their ghettos, and whatever else, this is normal. It may feel abnormal to some that have never lived outside of where they grew up, but trust me it is felt and experienced in every major city throughout the world. Latin quarter, French quarter, Italian, Greek, Irish, Chinese, hipster etc etc etc. Once you get used to it you will begin to see the beauty in it.

"Education is the inoculator for ignorance."


#109 Wetcoaster

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:24 AM

more interesting reads:

"Joey Kwan, Aberdeen's promotion and public relations manager, noted to The Vancouver Sun this year: "To our surprise, based on an internal research, 70 per cent of the existing tenants don’t even have a Chinese name on their signage."

In January, Joe Greenholtz, an immigration consultant and member of the Richmond Intercultural Advisory Committee argued that Chinese-only signage had nothing to do with multiculturalism and everything to do with business. He wrote in The Richmond News:

"The store owners are making a statement about the clientele they hope to attract — most of the stores I’ve wandered into with Chinese-only signs sell products that have no appeal for me and that I often can’t even identify.
It’s not about exclusionary practices, it’s a business decision about appealing to a defined demographic. Those who take offense at that, hiding behind the idea that it is somehow un-Canadian, or diminishes the capacity of immigrants to integrate, are feeling the pain of being irrelevant in their own backyards, for the first time."

from:
http://www.huffingto...ref=mostpopular

The video on Quebec Bill 101/ language police at the bottom the link is worth while watching.



Sign language reflects business
By Joe Greenholtz, Special to the Richmond News
http://www.richmond-...l#ixzz2NefSC1bz

"Richmond’s Intercultural Advisory Committee was asked to look at the signage issue a few years ago and again last year. This time around, instead of debating only what are essentially ideological arguments, we commissioned an informal survey among RCMP officers in Richmond to find out whether there were any public safety implications. It turns out not having English signage makes it more difficult for police to respond to a call. The same would presumably be true for fire and ambulance services.
Now that is an issue that bears further investigation and might justify a requirement for mandatory English signage. The red herring of tough love to help immigrants integrate does not. Quebec had to invoke the notwithstanding clause in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to pass its language law, making it clear that imposing language requirements is not a defense of Canadian values — quite the opposite."

That is incomplete and disregards what the SCOC said about freedom of expression.

While the notwitstanding clause was initially used by the PQ government to get around the SCOC Ford decision in regards to commercial signage, subsequently the legislation was brought into line with the decision.

Ford v. Quebec (Attorney General), [1988] 2 S.C.R. 712 is a landmark Supreme Court of Canada decision in which the Court struck down part of the Charter of the French Language, commonly known as Bill 101. This law had restricted the use of commercial signs written in languages other than French. The court ruled that Bill 101 violated the freedom of expression as guaranteed in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

...


In late 1989, shortly after the Supreme Court's decision, premier Robert Bourassa's Liberal Party of Quebec government passed Bill 178, making minor amendments to the Charter of the French Language. Recognizing that the amendments did not follow the Supreme Court's ruling, the provincial legislature invoked section 33 of the Canadian Charter (also known as the notwithstanding clause) to shield Bill 178 from review by courts for five years.


This move was politically controversial, both among Quebec nationalists who were unhappy with the changes to the Charter of the French Language, and among English-speaking Quebecers who opposed the use of the notwithstanding clause. Tension over this issue was a contributing factor to the failure of the Meech Lake Accord.


In 1993, the Charter of the French Language was amended in the manner suggested by the Supreme Court of Canada. Bill 86 was enacted by the Bourassa government to amend the charter. It now states that French must be predominant on commercial signs, but a language other than French may also be used. Accordingly, the law no longer invokes the notwithstanding clause.


The rationale for allowing this breach of freedom of expression (signs in any language but French could be mandated on such signs) as a reasonable limitation under Section 1 was that the Province of Quebec had the right to protect the French language as it was in danger of being overwhelmed by the English language. Such a rationale would not apply in the case of forcing English signage on Chinese signs.

Per the headnote from the Ford v. Quebec case:


(c ) Freedom of Expression


The "freedom of expression" guaranteed by s. 2(b) of the Canadian Charter and s. 3 of the Quebec Charter includes the freedom to express oneself in the language of one's choice. Language is so intimately related to the form and content of expression that there cannot be true freedom of expression by means of language if one is prohibited from using the language of one's choice. Language is not merely a means or medium of expression; it colours the content and meaning of expression. It is a means by which a people may express its cultural identity. It is also the means by which one expresses one's personal identity and sense of individuality. The recognition that "freedom of expression" includes the freedom to express oneself in the language of one's choice does not undermine or run counter to the express or specific guarantees of language rights in s. 133 of the Constitution Act, 1867 and ss. 16 to 23 of the Canadian Charter.


The expression contemplated by ss. 58 and 69 of the Charter of the French Language ‑‑ conveniently characterized as "commercial expression" ‑‑ is expression within the meaning of both s. 2(b) of the Canadian Charter and s. 3 of the Quebec Charter. Commercial expression, like political expression, is one of the forms of expression that is deserving of constitutional protection because it serves individual and societal values in a free and democratic society. Indeed, over and above its intrinsic value as expression, commercial expression, which protects listeners as well as speakers, plays a significant role in enabling individuals to make informed economic choices, an important aspect of individual self‑fulfillment and personal autonomy. This leads to the conclusion that s. 58 infringes the freedom of expression guaranteed by s. 3 of the Quebec Charter and s. 69 infringes the guaranteed freedom of expression under both s. 2(b) of the Canadian Charter and s. 3 of the Quebec Charter.


(d) Reasonable Limits


The material adduced in this Court did not justify the limit imposed on freedom of expression by ss. 58 and 69 of the Charter of the French Language. The material established the importance of the legislative purpose reflected in the Charter of the French Language ‑‑ the enhancement of the status of the French language in Quebec ‑‑ and that it was a response to a pressing and substantial concern ‑‑ the survival of the French language. The threat to the French language demonstrated to the government that it should, in particular, take steps to assure that the "visage linguistique" of Quebec would reflect the predominance of the French language. While the material indicated a rational connection between protecting the French language and assuring that the reality of Quebec society is communicated through the "visage linguistique", it did not demonstrate that the requirement of the use of French only in ss. 58 and 69 is either necessary for the achievement of the legislative purpose or proportionate to it.


Whereas requiring the predominant display of the French language, even its marked predominance, would be proportional to the goal of promoting and maintaining a French "visage linguistique" in Quebec and therefore justified under s. 9.1 of the Quebec Charter and s. 1 of the Canadian Charter, requiring the exclusive use of French has not been so justified. French could be required in addition to any other language or it could be required to have greater visibility than that accorded to other languages. Accordingly, the limit imposed on freedom of expression by s. 58 of the Charter of the French Language is not justified under s. 9.1 of the Quebec Charter, and the limit imposed on freedom of expression by s. 69 of the Charter of the French Language is not justified under either s. 1 of the Canadian Charter or s. 9.1 of the Quebec Charter. Section 9.1 is a justificatory provision corresponding to s. 1 of the Canadian Charter subject, in its application, to a similar test of rational connection and proportionality.

http://www.canlii.or...88canlii19.html

Edited by Wetcoaster, 18 March 2013 - 08:27 AM.

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#110 Buggernut

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:40 AM

What you are talking about is assimulation. If we follow your logic, we should adapt to the aboriginal culture, who were here first, rather than imposing our culture on them.


500 years too late for that, dude. If they were more advanced in science and technology, we might give it more of a look. Besides, there was no single "aboriginal culture", and what is now Canada span what was a large array of different native "nations" very much different from one another anyways.

#111 GoodBadUgly

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:44 AM

Eh, just leave it as is. I like to think I'm travelling to mainland China on my way home every day.

#112 Buggernut

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:44 AM

To all the "live and let live" people, are you all for unobstructed free movement worldwide, and the freedom for Joe American/Canadian Whitey to relocate to any part of Asia or Africa and live entirely by his own ways without any regard for local language, culture or customs? If you're consistent on this, then you have a valid argument.

#113 Wetcoaster

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:27 AM

To all the "live and let live" people, are you all for unobstructed free movement worldwide, and the freedom for Joe American/Canadian Whitey to relocate to any part of Asia or Africa and live entirely by his own ways without any regard for local language, culture or customs? If you're consistent on this, then you have a valid argument.

Different issues.

Your construct assumes those countries are equivalent to Canada... and they are not on any number of levels.

Canada is not required to operate like any other country, including the US of A and other countries are not required to follow Canada's lead.
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#114 silverpig

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:31 AM

To all the "live and let live" people, are you all for unobstructed free movement worldwide, and the freedom for Joe American/Canadian Whitey to relocate to any part of Asia or Africa and live entirely by his own ways without any regard for local language, culture or customs? If you're consistent on this, then you have a valid argument.


It's more that the law doesn't prohibit it and we all decry the Quebec language police, so what's the problem?
Moo

#115 Down by the River

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:36 AM

Private businesses should be able to write in whatever language they want. It isn't like you're going into the voting booth in Richmond and all options and instructions are written in Mandarin.

Businesses do many things to cater to specific populations. I'm not going to get up in arms about a 'women's only' gym. That business is making that specific strategic decision and it is their right.

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Considering their cap hit and age, I'd still take Bonino over Kesler. 

 


#116 Raffi Torres's Smirk

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:57 AM

...It may feel abnormal to some that have never lived outside of where they grew up, but trust me it is felt and experienced in every major city throughout the world. Latin quarter, French quarter, Italian, Greek, Irish, Chinese, hipster etc etc etc. Once you get used to it you will begin to see the beauty in it.


Have you experienced the controlled chaos that is Segalls (the grocery store)? Try checking it out early afternoon for a true cultural clusterfudge. I do love it there, though.

I agree with everything you're saying. As a testament to that sentiment, I have never met anyone that's lived outside of where they grew up and has complained about other cultures wherever they happen to be living now. That old adage about travel broadening the mind must have a bit of truth to it, no?



And Deb, with regards to the death-alergies of your family member, I believe the responsibility lies upon their shoulders and not restaurant owners. If something can kill them, and they know that, and they don't check their food for this thing, and they eat it, and they die: thats survival of the fitness right there. As for their desire for trying new foods but not being able to, that really sucks if it is the case, but what is more important to them: trying shark fin soup sushi? or living? I dont believe it is a Canadian right to be able to try new foods, but I could be wrong.

#117 Lockout Casualty

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:14 PM

Strange, I don't see anyone suggesting we adopt Quebec-style language laws, yet it keeps being mentioned as some kind of end-all argument against language laws.

I am yet to read why regulating businesses to have English signage is bad. In Canada, we are all from different backgrounds, but English and French unify us all. Not having English is a round-about way of avoiding every other nationality. How's that different than putting up a sign "Chinese Only"? It would be bad if all minorities started behaving in this way, so why should anyone be permitted? I'm confident that every group that immigrates here has apprehensions about the locals, bordering on racism. My culture has it, and I know it's the same in cultures far removed from mine, including Chinese. This is what is being served by shops that cater to a particular segment of our city's population.

Also we're yet to read of benefits of having Chinese only signs in large swaths of our city? I can see it benefiting newly arrived immigrants, sure, not that they would be hurt by a little English. It also serves the cash-only businesses who no doubt skim on the taxes. It makes it easy to hire FOBs who don't speak English and don't know the pay they get is pennies, nor the labor laws... just in case. It's the case in my culture, and it's sure as hell the case in other cultures where corruption permeates every level of society.

It's good the government regulates smoking inside businesses though. Can't have a place where non-smokers aren't welcome, can we.

#118 Wetcoaster

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:29 PM

Strange, I don't see anyone suggesting we adopt Quebec-style language laws, yet it keeps being mentioned as some kind of end-all argument against language laws.

I am yet to read why regulating businesses to have English signage is bad. In Canada, we are all from different backgrounds, but English and French unify us all. Not having English is a round-about way of avoiding every other nationality. How's that different than putting up a sign "Chinese Only"? It would be bad if all minorities started behaving in this way, so why should anyone be permitted? I'm confident that every group that immigrates here has apprehensions about the locals, bordering on racism. My culture has it, and I know it's the same in cultures far removed from mine, including Chinese. This is what is being served by shops that cater to a particular segment of our city's population.

Also we're yet to read of benefits of having Chinese only signs in large swaths of our city? I can see it benefiting newly arrived immigrants, sure, not that they would be hurt by a little English. It also serves the cash-only businesses who no doubt skim on the taxes. It makes it easy to hire FOBs who don't speak English and don't know the pay they get is pennies, nor the labor laws... just in case. It's the case in my culture, and it's sure as hell the case in other cultures where corruption permeates every level of society.

It's good the government regulates smoking inside businesses though. Can't have a place where non-smokers aren't welcome, can we.

Regulation of commercial speech contravenes the Charter's guarantee of freedom of expression as the SCOC has noted. In the case of the French language on signs it had to do with the preservation of French language and culture being overwhelmed so in that case it was a reasonable limitation.

The same argument does not apply in this case.
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#119 theminister

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:31 PM

There is a need to separate the two issues, IMHO.

1) Lack of signage in an official language.
2) Government regulation of the topic.

There are more ways to exert pressure on businesses who do not practice inclusionary signage and service than simply not being a paying customer or requiring legislation.

The practise should be a social taboo, in my opinion, and it behooves the population who are being excluded by another to publicly decry those who do. Negative publicity can have a great affect on social change.

Edited by theminister, 18 March 2013 - 12:31 PM.

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#120 DonLever

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:31 PM

It seems a lot of people are worked up over nothing. Or in other words, making a mountain out of a molehole.

It is really the businesses who advertise only in Chinese are the ones who suffer because they are losing sales by catering to one group.

So why are people so upset? Veiled racism?




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