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Is it time for a new coach?


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#301 CanucksJay

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:56 PM

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[quote name='Smashian Kassian' timestamp='1363675484' post='11230192']
Pehaps, without going through the whole thing step for step. You make some solid points G.

AV perhaps didn't stall Cody's development, although I don't think he has had a great benefit on it either really. And I still by what I said about Cory and the Twins. Cory was a star in the AHL and the Sedins were 1st liners under Crow, AV came in and let them play the style they always had known under Crow. But I give Crow credit for there development and maturation as players an people.

I would just like to see him stick with players like Schroeder and Kassian and give them opportunities to succeed. Especially now we need help and they seem to be some of the only guys who haven't been given top notch opportunities.
[/quote]

People call Hodgson a whiner etc but I was thinking about this today...I blame AV
If Hodgson played for Detroit behind Datsyuk and Zetterberg, you think the same thing would have happened under Babcock's watch?

Babcock treats his players with fairness and respect and as a result, he gets respect in return and loyalty.

I think about all the dumb AV quotes just yucking it up with the media and it makes me steam lol. Why don't you take just half that effort into building relationships and connections with your players?

If we had a coach like Babcock, what would have happened is Hodgson would have shut his mouth and played hard on the 3rd line until he started showing signs he might be better than Kesler. At that point, Babcock would have enough respect from Kesler where Kes would check his ego and move to wing with Hodgson centering and be a dominant 2nd line.

We would play an uptempo puck possession game where all 3 units of d-men join the rush and we would get timely chances created by guys like Bieksa, Edler, and Ballard on the 3rd unit when they push the pace.

EFF I hate AV

Seriously? Didn't you see Shroeder creating chances on the 4th line while playing like Weise and Sestito?
Maybe if you see a young offensive player having a good game while our team is struggling to score, it just might be a good idea to try him with some talent around him?

Damn I hate AV
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#302 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:08 AM

People call Hodgson a whiner etc but I was thinking about this today...I blame AV
If Hodgson played for Detroit behind Datsyuk and Zetterberg, you think the same thing would have happened under Babcock's watch?

Babcock treats his players with fairness and respect and as a result, he gets respect in return and loyalty.

I think about all the dumb AV quotes just yucking it up with the media and it makes me steam lol. Why don't you take just half that effort into building relationships and connections with your players?

If we had a coach like Babcock, what would have happened is Hodgson would have shut his mouth and played hard on the 3rd line until he started showing signs he might be better than Kesler. At that point, Babcock would have enough respect from Kesler where Kes would check his ego and move to wing with Hodgson centering and be a dominant 2nd line.

We would play an uptempo puck possession game where all 3 units of d-men join the rush and we would get timely chances created by guys like Bieksa, Edler, and Ballard on the 3rd unit when they push the pace.

EFF I hate AV

Seriously? Didn't you see Shroeder creating chances on the 4th line while playing like Weise and Sestito?
Maybe if you see a young offensive player having a good game while our team is struggling to score, it just might be a good idea to try him with some talent around him?

Damn I hate AV


Yeah I generally agree, although I think Cody had the character he is touted with having he would have shutup and tried to overcome it like Nazem Kadri did in Toronto. (Who I think is having a more impressive season BTW)

And Kesler would never be bumped over for Cody, Center is as much about defense as it is offense and Kesler defensively game is incredibly far ahead of Codys.

I do agree though about JS and your other points.
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#303 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:10 AM

Oh, I agree that if Gillis goes first, we'd need a new coach, too. Couldn't see him being around to work for three different GMs. I just find it kinda funny that while some are saying AV has the wrong style for the team, we're slowly, by plan, morphing into a team AV had his most striking success with.


But I think at least part of that is the fact that AV is turning players into those kind of players so he can have that kind of team. I don't think it is all on MG as there are some pretty interesting lineup and role decisions made by AV with some players who would be better off in a different role. And it seems to be in all cases they are offensive players being asked to play defensive and/or dump and chase hockey rather than play to their strengths.

In some ways AV is coaching this team to what he wants them to become not what they truly are at this point. Gillis needs to make a decision on what team he wants and what coach can coach it that way because right now there is a huge disconnect.
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#304 CanucksJay

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:20 AM

Yeah I generally agree, although I think Cody had the character he is touted with having he would have shutup and tried to overcome it like Nazem Kadri did in Toronto. (Who I think is having a more impressive season BTW)

And Kesler would never be bumped over for Cody, Center is as much about defense as it is offense and Kesler defensively game is incredibly far ahead of Codys.

I do agree though about JS and your other points.


Everybody talks about Hodgson by taking Gillis' words at face value. When have you EVER heard anything negative said by Hodgson even after being thrown under the bus by AV and MG?
Hodgson has been touted as captain material at EVERY stage of his career. Characters like that don't all of a sudden change overnight especially when he's only a rookie/sophmore in the NHL who hasnt proven anything yet.
If he had that kind of selfishness, it would have come out by the time he was eligible for the draft. Up until the trade, all we heard were positive things about Hodgson.

My guess is that MG made the move and then realized he might have goofed. He then thought of the best way to save face. I'm sure Hodgson's dad has called MG previously regarding his son's career but really, is that THAT big of a deal?
Hodgson himself was not the problem so you dont just throw away an asset.

I like Kassian but in all reality, Hodgson has a higher ceiling and we could definitely use him now.
But my point is, if AV treated Hodgson better from the beginning, maybe the phone calls from Dad would not have been as frequent. Yeah I admit it's abnormal that a father calls the GM of a hockey club but at the same time, if he knows his son is going to be a star but sees a dumbass coach railroading his kids career, it might be difficult to sit and watch.

It's kind of like how we complain about AV and his poor choices but imagine that AV's making the poor choices with your son (who has succeeded at every level of hockey) and you had the GM's phone number lol...
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#305 oldnews

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:24 AM

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#306 Mrock-763

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:39 AM

For frack sakes, make a coaching change already. AV is soo brutal. Always getting outcoached, makes awful line combinations when the choices are so obvious. Mishandled countless rookies (Hodgson, Grabner and now soon to be Kassian and Schroeder) Get this team back on track. Bring in Lindy Ruff "The master at in-game adjustments" to jump start the team. Maybe Kassian could re-ignite his play. This team is going to miss the playoffs, or get knocked out in the first round because AV simply cannot coach. Ok I'm done ranting... for now
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#307 dontstresskes

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:43 AM

I've seen all these threads calling for Alain Vigenault's head, but is he really to blame for our struggles. Alain Vigenault is the most winningest coach in Canucks history. We can't say he can't win games. He has been getting quite the heat lately for the team struggles. If he were to get fired, he strikes me as someone who would get a job right away and do quite well.

I watched the team today and I see nothing from the team. Absolutely nothing. They don't have that passion that they once had when they went all the way to the cup. Don't forget they had a lot of hype around them that year due to the talent they had brought in. That brings me to my next point, talent. Who's responsible for bringing the players in and shipping them out. I really thought that after the Stanley Cup finals, we needed to make some major tweaks to get the players thinking we could go all the way again. I thought the loss was too much to overcome mentally and we needed to make some good transactions to even contend. If you look at Mike Gillis, what has he really done? This is the same guy that brought a old Mats Sundin for $10 million dollars. I know a lot of you think he had a lot to due with Kesler's development, but Kesler was trending upwards no matter how you look at it. That's way too much money for anyone in this league. Speaking of way too much money we brought in Keith Ballard, David Booth through trades and now maybe even our recent free agent signing Jason Garrison. Look at Florida Panther's GM Dave Tallon, he's the same guy who built the core of the Chicago Blackhawks. He's doing the exact same thing with their young talent. He want's to get rid of these players and for some reason we have to give up our future to get these players. Our core was already here before he came. He did bring in players like Manny Malhotra, Dan Hamhuis and Raffi Torres who I say helped us during that final run, but only one of them is left. We are heading down a road where there's no light. We have good prospects, not great. We don't have that superstar or superstars of tomorrow. Our core is ageing and our window to contend has shrivelled down to this year alone. If you want to blame anyone, blame Gillis. AV doesn't deserve it. If he does gets fired it's because Gillis needs to save his own job. AV will get a job immediately because teams would love a coach with a winning record. If Gillis get's fired, how many people do you see going after him? Exactly.

Edited by dontstresskes, 19 March 2013 - 12:48 AM.

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#308 Go Faulk Yourself

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:45 AM

Sometimes it takes a new coaching staff to get it through to their head, I haven't been on the "FIRE AV!" train, but I can understand where it might actually make a difference. At this point, I don't care anymore and am open to whatever we can do to get a fire under our team.

Note that the Sabres didn't fire Ruff because he was a bad coach, nor do I believe it was his fault, but the team needed to realize that they were not performing up to where they should be, and therefore, something had to be done. Usually the coach is the one to take the fault.

Edited by Go Faulk Yourself, 19 March 2013 - 12:47 AM.

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#309 stexx

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:45 AM

is this kind of like the ESPN paywall? because i sure paid for trying to read that mess.
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#310 oldnews

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:47 AM

K.
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#311 Machine Gun Kelly

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:48 AM

Paragraphs, they help
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#312 smackyo23

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:50 AM

For frack sakes, make a coaching change already. AV is soo brutal. Always getting outcoached, makes awful line combinations when the choices are so obvious. Mishandled countless rookies (Hodgson, Grabner and now soon to be Kassian and Schroeder) Get this team back on track. Bring in Lindy Ruff "The master at in-game adjustments" to jump start the team. Maybe Kassian could re-ignite his play. This team is going to miss the playoffs, or get knocked out in the first round because AV simply cannot coach. Ok I'm done ranting... for now


We needed a new coach at the end of last season.

I like Gillis, I think he's made some good moves for this club and maybe he'll just be saying it for the media or whatever but he'll probably bring out the same old line about how the fan's are overreacting and that nothing is wrong, confidence in our head coach ect, ect...................................
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#313 smackyo23

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:51 AM

Yes he is. Nuff said.
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#314 MayRayDown

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:56 AM

I watched the team today and I see nothing from the team. Absolutely nothing. They don't have that passion that they once had when they went all the way to the cup.


Didn't you just answer your own question? It's AV's job to get something out of this team

Edited by MayRayDown, 19 March 2013 - 12:56 AM.

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#315 ChuckNORRIS4Cup

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:58 AM

I find it funny how all the people say the players have given up on AV, how can they give up on a guy who let's them figure things out on their own? What the players need is some fire under their you know what..., and unfortunately this coach doesn't bring that to the table.
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#316 n00bxQb

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:00 AM

We haven't had Kesler and Booth basically all season, MG shut Malhotra down, Bieksa has missed about 1/3 of the season so far, we haven't got great goaltending this season, our power play has sucked, and we really only have 1 line doing anything as a result.

I'm sure AV can do a little better, but a coaching change isn't going to solve these problems.

Who were our centers tonight? Henrik, Lapierre, Ebbett, and Schroeder ... Yeah ...
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#317 Papayas

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:00 AM

It's hard not to question av with the way he uses the teams talent... It was ok in the past when gillis built the team through skills and talent..but now it seems mg is building the team with grit and size over speed and skills, and you can't afford to waste talents such as Schroeder and Ballard when the whole team is compose by griners ....
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#318 dontstresskes

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:04 AM

Didn't you just answer your own question? It's AV's job to get something out of this team


Oh just like it's a teachers fault because a student isn't academically inclined. I'm sorry. AV tells them what they have to do to win. They have to go play the game and get the win.

Edited by dontstresskes, 19 March 2013 - 01:05 AM.

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#319 smackyo23

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:20 AM

Oh just like it's a teachers fault because a student isn't academically inclined. I'm sorry. AV tells them what they have to do to win. They have to go play the game and get the win.


Worst post of the night.

By the way, good teachers inspire students to succeed.
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#320 MayRayDown

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:38 AM

Oh just like it's a teachers fault because a student isn't academically inclined. I'm sorry. AV tells them what they have to do to win. They have to go play the game and get the win.


Terry Murray was fired last year in LA because his team was lackluster and weren't performing with a 13-12-4 record then went 2-2 for their interim coach and then went on to go 25-13-11 with Daryl Sutter. Sometimes its not the students
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#321 Alex the Great

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:39 AM

For me, it just seems like he has "lost the room" so to speak
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#322 Mrock-763

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:54 AM

I find it funny how all the people say the players have given up on AV, how can they give up on a guy who let's them figure things out on their own? What the players need is some fire under their you know what..., and unfortunately this coach doesn't bring that to the table.


The players have gotten too comfortable with AV. It's time a real coach took over. This team needs to get back to winning and playing with an edge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zal0dnRsN5A
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#323 Tom Sestito

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:55 AM

Here's my take.

I honestly believe we need some heart, and a coaching change. Not to Vigneault, but fire Newell Brown if anyone. He's the guy who runs the powerplay.

I think we should get Jason Arnott on a PTO and stick him on the fourth line. I believe we lost experience there, and he'd be useful as a replacement for manny. Just my thoughts, even though we've already passed on Arnott.
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#324 mikeburn

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:17 AM

Oh just like it's a teachers fault because a student isn't academically inclined. I'm sorry. AV tells them what they have to do to win. They have to go play the game and get the win.


There's an apparent logic flow failure in your thinking, or at least your commentary...

You describe AV as the "most winningest coach in Canucks history", so presumably are willing to give him credit for the team's wins, but don't seem to think he then has any responsibility for the team's losses? Is it truly your position that a team's wins are attributable to the coaching but a team's loses are attributable to the players alone?

On the flip side, you seem to suggest that *all* the coach has to do (presumably in order to be a good coach), is to tell the players how to win - and, well, if they aren't good students then oh well. Do you really imagine that all there is to being a "winningest coach" is to be good at telling players how to win?

Edited by mikeburn, 19 March 2013 - 02:18 AM.

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#325 wai_lai416

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:43 AM

Terry Murray was fired last year in LA because his team was lackluster and weren't performing with a 13-12-4 record then went 2-2 for their interim coach and then went on to go 25-13-11 with Daryl Sutter. Sometimes its not the students


only difference is LA have all the tools and talent sitting there.. Vancouver on the other hand... i just don't see any talent skills here except for a few.. we have the sedins and burrows on the top line.. then what? we have a bunch of bottom 6 to fill up the 2nd 3rd and 4th line...
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#326 Baggins

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:20 AM

For frack sakes, make a coaching change already. AV is soo brutal. Always getting outcoached, makes awful line combinations when the choices are so obvious. Mishandled countless rookies (Hodgson, Grabner and now soon to be Kassian and Schroeder) Get this team back on track. Bring in Lindy Ruff "The master at in-game adjustments" to jump start the team. Maybe Kassian could re-ignite his play. This team is going to miss the playoffs, or get knocked out in the first round because AV simply cannot coach. Ok I'm done ranting... for now


What about Kesler, Burrows, Edler, Bieksa, Raymond, Hansen and Tanev? Did he mishandle them?

Edited by Baggins, 19 March 2013 - 03:21 AM.

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#327 mj vic

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:27 AM

AV has become the soft target for canuck fans. There is a hell of a lot more wrong with this team than the coach
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#328 Toni Zamboni

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:32 AM

what if av gets fired and the team continues to suck or gets worse, then what?
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#329 Primus099

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:36 AM

Note that the Sabres didn't fire Ruff because he was a bad coach, nor do I believe it was his fault, but the team needed to realize that they were not performing up to where they should be, and therefore, something had to be done. Usually the coach is the one to take the fault.


And how's that working out for the Sabres? I think they're even worse since getting rid of Ruff
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#330 mikeburn

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:46 AM

Everybody talks about Hodgson by taking Gillis' words at face value. When have you EVER heard anything negative said by Hodgson even after being thrown under the bus by AV and MG?
Hodgson has been touted as captain material at EVERY stage of his career. Characters like that don't all of a sudden change overnight especially when he's only a rookie/sophmore in the NHL who hasnt proven anything yet.
If he had that kind of selfishness, it would have come out by the time he was eligible for the draft. Up until the trade, all we heard were positive things about Hodgson.

My guess is that MG made the move and then realized he might have goofed. He then thought of the best way to save face. I'm sure Hodgson's dad has called MG previously regarding his son's career but really, is that THAT big of a deal?
Hodgson himself was not the problem so you dont just throw away an asset.

I like Kassian but in all reality, Hodgson has a higher ceiling and we could definitely use him now.
But my point is, if AV treated Hodgson better from the beginning, maybe the phone calls from Dad would not have been as frequent. Yeah I admit it's abnormal that a father calls the GM of a hockey club but at the same time, if he knows his son is going to be a star but sees a dumbass coach railroading his kids career, it might be difficult to sit and watch.

It's kind of like how we complain about AV and his poor choices but imagine that AV's making the poor choices with your son (who has succeeded at every level of hockey) and you had the GM's phone number lol...


Well said. And true.

It's conceivable that the general public will truly never know the ins and outs of what transpired behind the scenes that lead to the Hodgson trade away, but we do know a few things...

1) the only people who have known/worked with him and who have bashed him, are those who traded him away

2) AV and MG are only human, and it's simply not unheard of for humans to rationalize their own decisions (good or bad) by finding fault with the other party after the fact (see: breakup of marriages and friendships, firings of long term employees, conflicts between life-long business partners, etc.)

3) Hodgson expressed only surprise, if not a shock equal to what media and fans expressed, upon learning he was traded (so kinda hard to imagine he wanted out of Vanc., much less asked for a trade, as many fans have since claimed on the basis of nothing)

4) At no time before or after the trade did Hodgson ever behave or talk in any way that was less than that of a professional young athlete (ie: there are no photos, first hand accounts, or verified quotes of the kid ever expressing a "primmadonna" attitude - it's simply been implied by AV/MG after the fact, and repeated so many times by fans and media alike that it sounds like a "fact")

5) By all accounts, Hodgson's current coaching staff and teammates don't have any problems with him either, and in fact he's spoken of highly (ie: linemates Vanek and Pomminville have credited him for their success as line, etc.), and yet if the claims that this kid demanded more ice-time, etc. were true, you'd expect he'd be even MORE of a "primaddona" post-trade (ie: like rewarding a toddler for bad behaviour only serves to teach the toddler to continue to act up).

6) Other claims, such as that Hodgson is a "defensive liability" with offensive potential only if "sheltered", have been entirely debunked by the kid's performance since (consistently producing offense when put in any game situation and up against top lines/defense, steadily improving two-way game, one of the regulars on the PK, etc.), such suggests that other claims made by AV/MG (and media and fans since the trade) may be equally misplaced if not outright untrue.

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But all that aside, going back to the thread's actual subject - yeah, I'd vote for it being time for a new coach. Not because of Hodgson or the subsequent Hodgson trade, but because of what that whole saga flags out about how players are generally managed under the current regime...

Hodgson hasn't debunked the claims against his game simply by being some sorta awesome superstar, but by being given a chance to develop game after game. His defensive game has steadily improved this season because he's been given a chance to gain the experience needed to get better. He's not benched for every mistake, trying to play under fear of being humiliated by a public "call out", or left not knowing his role such that he's running around in circles chasing useless hits to prove he can be another grinder as a means to stay out of the press box, etc. Can't say the same for Kassian, Grabner, Ballard, Schroeder, etc.

Yep, I'd vote to change the coach - and the GM, who has systematically failed to inject, find and/or otherwise sign some youth to replace the generation lost under AV's tenure. Gillis claimed to want to model the Canucks after Detroit, lol. Sigh.
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