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Is it time for a new coach?


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#91 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:51 PM

we all know coaches have a big decision on trades, esp if they have a good relationship with the GM. and you know who im referring to.

Yes, I know and I think you're mistaken. Coho's role was planned out by the entire coaching and management team. Gillis has stated this many times.

Anyone else?
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#92 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:52 PM

AV's coaching decisions are very questionable. And I'm not sure what he's like inside the room, but from what we know the players say that he usually doesn't have to say a lot extra to them. I think we'd benefit more from a coach who's more vocal about his opinions and demands of the team in order to spark them. I also am annoyed with the way he treats younger players. Putting them on the fourth line with grinders playing minimum minutes and then benching and sending them down to the AHL just because they don't produce does not seem justified to me. If he hasn't noticed, it's not only the young players that are performing poorly.

Yeah, that's certainly working out for Torts, isn't it?
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#93 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:57 PM

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You know, this sound like some sort of prayer you say before you go to bed every night. I've answered all of these points many times and it's getting tiresome. I honestly don't understand why you continue to post your opinion in response to my posts, expecting me to change my mind and agree with you.

One more time: The Canucks lost to Boston because they were not healthy and Thomas played unbelievable in net.

2) I'm sorry your boy Ballard isn't getting more playing time, but it's not the reason the team is where it's currently at.

Let me know when you have something new to whine about.


I don't expect to change your closed mind about the subject. But you have no valid argument for keeping AV other than regular season success and an intense fear that his replacement might not be better.

If you think the only reason the Canucks lost to Boston was because of injuries then you are proving my point about AV........the coach's JOB is to overcome injuries in the playoffs......by getting the most out of the 23 man roster.....Some coaches can, and some - like AV - can't. Because they keep going back to what has worked in the past instead of trying something new and getting all players on the team playing with confidence and to their strengths. It is called getting outcoached.....

Edited by wallstreetamigo, 17 March 2013 - 01:58 PM.

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#94 k_man08

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:02 PM

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Yes, I know and I think you're mistaken. Coho's role was planned out by the entire coaching and management team. Gillis has stated this many times.

Anyone else?


ofcourse gillis defended it.. his job is on the line.
its the same as when burke defended the kessel trade. we all know its a bunch of BS and if he could do it all over he wouldn't.
dont' take this personally but you're way too defensive about this coach and his actions.

this coach has shown me over the last 5+ years that he is easily out coached, he plays favorites wayy too often and is not willing to give the young players on our team any chance to succeed.

if you don't feel the same way, then good for you. leave your attitude at home
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#95 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:10 PM

I don't expect to change your closed mind about the subject. But you have no valid argument for keeping AV other than regular season success and an intense fear that his replacement might not be better.

If you think the only reason the Canucks lost to Boston was because of injuries then you are proving my point about AV........the coach's JOB is to overcome injuries in the playoffs......by getting the most out of the 23 man roster.....Some coaches can, and some - like AV - can't. Because they keep going back to what has worked in the past instead of trying something new and getting all players on the team playing with confidence and to their strengths. It is called getting outcoached.....

It was the main reason, not the only one. Tim Thomas had a lot to do with it as well. (as I already pointed out)

And speaking of "closed mind".... how many times are you going to drag out the silly "he should have found a way, but he got outcoached!" routine? Just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it any less inaccurate.
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#96 Christophe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:10 PM

Yes, no doubt.

Won't happen though, MG is too stubborn.
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#97 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:13 PM

Absolutely. And a change is long overdue.

*see below*


So you want to become the Nashville Predators then??

According to Rhett Warrener, one of Ruff's strengths as a coach is his ability to adjust his systems according to what the opposition is doing. He cited the 1999 SC run (which Buffalo eventually lost to Dallas) as an example. According to Rhett, the Sabres were outmatched in pretty much every category (except goaltending) in every series but Ruff was able to implement strategies to counter the systems the other teams were employing.


Adjusting.

I wish our coach could do that. :(

That's the problem, AV doesn't use what Gillis has given him. Where was Garrison last night on the 5 on 3?

Why is it good players suddenly become poor when they arrive in Vancouver? I watched Garrison on more than one occasion last season when he was in Florida. He's not the same here because he's not being used the same.

Needing help at center is obvious.


Exactly. Players like Booth, Garrison and Ballard suddenly don't become bad players, The Panthers face the same quality of competition that we do.

They aren't being used correctly.

MG keeps saying he wants to push the pace and be offensive, so he goes out and gets those players, But his coach's system is the opposite, so the players he gets aren't used correctly.

So his coach directly goes against his idea of how to build this team.
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#98 vancouverdepression

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:16 PM

The cure for the Canucks? John Tortorella.
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#99 bobopan

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:19 PM

It won't happen this season. AV will get his shot, i don't realistically see this team going anywhere and AV will be fired in the off-season. MG will have a short leash.. Costing Aqualini alot of money with these buy-outs now they'll have to pay the coach as he watches from his tv as well lol.
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#100 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:20 PM

The cure for the Canucks? John Tortorella.

CDC logic: We're not dominating our division....

Solution: Hire someone who's team is doing even worse....
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#101 k_man08

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:25 PM

The cure for the Canucks? John Tortorella.


hell no. we don't need a coach that publically calls out his players and lowers their morale. we need someone who will effectively use what he's got and bring out the best in what we have. Torts has more talent on rangers than we do here in our roster and he can't get anything done cuz of his attitude.
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#102 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:25 PM

Bieksa, Burrows, Edler, Hansen, Kesler, Raymond, Schneider, Sedin, Sedin, Tanev. An argument can even be made for Hodgson. Works in progress: Kassian, Schroeder, Weise.


Please.

The Sedins are creditted to Crow, they were 1st line players before AV had anything to do with them.

Schneider developed into the best goalie in the AHL, but not with AV. I don't see how that can be credited to him either.

And if anything he stalled Cody's development.

The rest of the list you could make reasonable cases for, although the thing that strikes me, is they are all great defensive guys, goes along with his system, that's why they worked, Kesler was a defensive center early on, Hansen was a defensive/grinding forward, Raymond was playing a secondary role early on, while being relied on for the PK. Ditto to Burrows. Edler and Bieksa are both good defensively.

Although with guys like Cody, and even perhaps we are seeing it with Kassian. He can't develop the offensive side and teach them defense, he just parks them on the end of the bench. We saw it with Shirokov too.

He has been alright at developing players, but I will take Crow over him as a developmental coach.

I would wait till the end of the season then fire AV. Why wait? Because although I believe AV is making bad decisions and isn't getting effort out of the players he does have, I also think Gillis hasn't assembled a good team around the core players. The fact that we still have both Lou and Schneider is incredible.

So I would wait till season's end, hire a new coach ( a younger coach, not just another retread) give Gillis a very short leash to grow some balls and make some deals....REAL deals. Then if the team doesn't turn it around quickly, fire Gillis.


It's like MG is the only GM in the league who hasn't been able to consistently make impact deals that make sense........ :sadno:
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#103 k_man08

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:29 PM

Please.

The Sedins are creditted to Crow, they were 1st line players before AV had anything to do with them.

Schneider developed into the best goalie in the AHL, but not with AV. I don't see how that can be credited to him either.

And if anything he stalled Cody's development.

The rest of the list you could make reasonable cases for, although the thing that strikes me, is they are all great defensive guys, goes along with his system, that's why they worked, Kesler was a defensive center early on, Hansen was a defensive/grinding forward, Raymond was playing a secondary role early on, while being relied on for the PK. Ditto to Burrows. Edler and Bieksa are both good defensively.

Although with guys like Cody, and even perhaps we are seeing it with Kassian. He can't develop the offensive side and teach them defense, he just parks them on the end of the bench. We saw it with Shirokov too.

He has been alright at developing players, but I will take Crow over him as a developmental coach.



It's like MG is the only GM in the league who hasn't been able to consistently make impact deals that make sense........ :sadno:


agree with you on MG. another thing with MG is .. have you noticed all Dmen that he signs are over 4 Million at least? its like every new D he finds through FA is the next big thing and makes a case for paying them a boat load. I think his assessment of players is not as good as some give him credit for. I think he could benefit from an advisor .. someone more experienced before he's relieved of his duties.
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#104 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:32 PM

Really, what have they won under Carlyle? Did they win last night? When was the last time they won? The Leafs have to make the playoffs before they can say they've won anything. Leafs are still a joke!


The Leafs are a better team than us right now.

They went down 4-1 to WPG last night. But they came out, battled back and out played them, and almost won it on many, many occasions.

We went down 4-1 to DET last night, and... Well you saw what happened. We gave up and got embarrassed.

You can't figure out why they keep trotting out the same PP unit? Because AV would rather lose with his favorites than win with anyone else carrying the mail. It is his trademark and a huge reason this team lost to Boston in the finals.........

The best coaches get the best out of every player and hold all of them accountable. Can you honestly say AV has done that to Edler this season? Or Hamhuis? Or Bieksa? Come on.....he plays favorites and while that can be ignored when you are dominating (although it shouldnt be but whatever), it should be addressed as soon as it becomes a chronic inhibitor to the team's success.....which it did over a year ago.


Preach the truth brotha!

Preach the truth!

You know, this sound like some sort of prayer you say before you go to bed every night. I've answered all of these points many times and it's getting tiresome. I honestly don't understand why you continue to post your opinion in response to my posts, expecting me to change my mind and agree with you.

One more time: The Canucks lost to Boston because they were not healthy and Thomas played unbelievable in net.

2) I'm sorry your boy Ballard isn't getting more playing time, but it's not the reason the team is where it's currently at.

Let me know when you have something new to whine about.


I hope your not honestly denying that AV play favorites.......... :sadno:
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#105 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:35 PM

It was the main reason, not the only one. Tim Thomas had a lot to do with it as well. (as I already pointed out)

And speaking of "closed mind".... how many times are you going to drag out the silly "he should have found a way, but he got outcoached!" routine? Just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it any less inaccurate.


I, unlike you, can admit that no coach - not even your exalted AV - is perfect. If he is not responsible for any of the playoff failure of this team over the yeaers (as you like to suggest) then it stands to reason that he is also not responsible for any of the team's success over the years as well.....you can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

You sound like a person who has never coached a team sport at any kind of competitive level. Coaching is all about putting players in a position to succeed and taking advantage of a players strengths and minimizing their weaknesses. The goes for the whole roster.......

Playing favorites is human nature. At the NHL level though it needs to take a backseat when those favorites are not getting the job done. Waiting for guys like Edler, Hamhuis, Bieksa, etc to "find their game" works in the regular season because AV has unlimited games to wait. In a 7 game series we see what happens when he chooses to wait.....the Canucks lose and they lose ugly.

I could care less that the Canucks lost the SCF to Boston. It is HOW they lost that matters. They - taking a cue from their coach - simply gave up........so did AV.
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#106 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:36 PM

agree with you on MG. another thing with MG is .. have you noticed all Dmen that he signs are over 4 Million at least? its like every new D he finds through FA is the next big thing and makes a case for paying them a boat load. I think his assessment of players is not as good as some give him credit for. I think he could benefit from an advisor .. someone more experienced before he's relieved of his duties.


Not sure you took my original post the right way, just in case it was that all GM's struggle to make impact deals that make sense.

Everyone thinks trades are made easily, and that there is a great deal out there just waiting for us, but it isn't the case.

And I don't think 4 million is paying them a boatload. That has proven to be the norm for top 4 defenseman.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 17 March 2013 - 02:57 PM.

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#107 k_man08

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:38 PM

I, unlike you, can admit that no coach - not even your exalted AV - is perfect. If he is not responsible for any of the playoff failure of this team over the yeaers (as you like to suggest) then it stands to reason that he is also not responsible for any of the team's success over the years as well.....you can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

You sound like a person who has never coached a team sport at any kind of competitive level. Coaching is all about putting players in a position to succeed and taking advantage of a players strengths and minimizing their weaknesses. The goes for the whole roster.......

Playing favorites is human nature. At the NHL level though it needs to take a backseat when those favorites are not getting the job done. Waiting for guys like Edler, Hamhuis, Bieksa, etc to "find their game" works in the regular season because AV has unlimited games to wait. In a 7 game series we see what happens when he chooses to wait.....the Canucks lose and they lose ugly.

I could care less that the Canucks lost the SCF to Boston. It is HOW they lost that matters. They - taking a cue from their coach - simply gave up........so did AV.


Amen
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#108 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:38 PM

ofcourse gillis defended it.. his job is on the line.
its the same as when burke defended the kessel trade. we all know its a bunch of BS and if he could do it all over he wouldn't.
dont' take this personally but you're way too defensive about this coach and his actions.

this coach has shown me over the last 5+ years that he is easily out coached, he plays favorites wayy too often and is not willing to give the young players on our team any chance to succeed.

if you don't feel the same way, then good for you. leave your attitude at home

Gillis made that statement before Hodgson was traded. It came out in response to whining by Tony G about Coho's "lack of icetime"...

I'm pretty sure Tanev has been "given the chance to succeed". Same for Burrows, Kesler, Hansen, Raymond, Bieksa, Edler.....

And speaking of "attitude", take a long look in the mirror...
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#109 k_man08

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:41 PM

Not sure you took my original post the right way, just in case it was that all MG's struggle to make impact deals that make sense.

Everyone thinks trades are made easily, and that there is a great deal out there just waiting for us, but it isn't the case.

And I don't think 4 million is paying them a boatload. That has proven to be the norm for top 4 defenseman.


okay i get you. but i think we have ballard, hamhuis, edler, bieksa and now garrison paid over 4 million. they can't all be top 4. and if they are, 1 - 2 of them are underachieving and should be tradeable (IE: ballard ) but that's not the case.

i guess its hard for me to assess top 4 talent because anyone that's ever been good elsewhere comes here and struggles. so its either MG's talent assessment or our Coaching staff that is not up to par with what needs to be done ..
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#110 k_man08

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:44 PM

Gillis made that statement before Hodgson was traded. It came out in response to whining by Tony G about Coho's "lack of icetime"...

I'm pretty sure Tanev has been "given the chance to succeed". Same for Burrows, Kesler, Hansen, Raymond, Bieksa, Edler.....

And speaking of "attitude", take a long look in the mirror...


i pointed out an opinion / fact and you answered back with a response and ended with 'next' i think that's considered attitude in anyone's books.

PS all players you listed were not rookies under AV's watch. except maybe hansen so he gets credit there.

but we've already seen what happens to rookies since he's become coach. Co-ho (gone), Grabner (doghouse, gone), shirokov (no chance, gone), Kassian (earning 5 - 10 mins a line on 3/4th line). your argument fails.

Edited by k_man08, 17 March 2013 - 02:46 PM.

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#111 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:49 PM

You sound like a person who has never coached a team sport at any kind of competitive level. Coaching is all about putting players in a position to succeed and taking advantage of a players strengths and minimizing their weaknesses. The goes for the whole roster.......

I'm not going to bother with the "playing favorites" routine. We've been over and over that. AV "favors" the players that he thinks give him the best chance to win, as does every coach in league history. Remember when you claimed Rome was his "favorite"? Why didn't AV do anything to keep him around?

I may "sound" like a person who's never coached a team at a competitive level to you, but as usual, you're incorrect. (I thought we had already established that I have more real world hockey experience than you... :huh: ) I've coached competitive hockey, baseball and football. I've also worked as an assistant instructor at a hockey school formerly operated by Darcy Rota.

BTW: I don't "exalt" AV. It's statements like this that make you look childish. He bears some responsibility for the playoff losses, just not the bulk of it, IMO.
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#112 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:53 PM

i pointed out an opinion / fact and you answered back with a response and ended with 'next' i think that's considered attitude in anyone's books.

PS all players you listed were not rookies under AV's watch. except maybe hansen so he gets credit there.

but we've already seen what happens to rookies since he's become coach. Co-ho (gone), Grabner (doghouse, gone), shirokov (no chance, gone), Kassian (earning 5 - 10 mins a line on 3/4th line). your argument fails.

I refuted your opinion and asked if you had anyone else in mind. If that's "attitude", then I suppose I'm guilty as charged. As are you, considering your last sentence in this post.

PS: It doesn't matter whether or not the players mentioned were rookies under AV. They were all young players who gradually worked their way into being regulars in the lineup. Most of them also developed under AV in Manitoba.
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#113 DIBdaQUIB

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:58 PM

It won't happen this season. AV will get his shot, i don't realistically see this team going anywhere and AV will be fired in the off-season. MG will have a short leash.. Costing Aqualini alot of money with these buy-outs now they'll have to pay the coach as he watches from his tv as well lol.


If Nucks are out early and MG doesn't fire AV, Aquilini may step in ad replace MG first.

It is at a point where it doesn't really matter what the questions surrounding the Nucks are, the point is, this coaching staff have no answers. They keep going back to what worked 2 years ago and hasn't worked since. Bringing in Garrison as Sami's replacement and then not using him in favour of Hamhuis on the point for the PP? It's obvious AV has no clue and is just bumbling around with personnel decisions hoping something will gel.

As for those saying MG obviously supports the personnel decisions by AV...as a GM, he has a choice to either show support for his coach or fire him. There really is no middle ground. Burke and Wilson are the classic illustration of that fact. Burke waited a bit too long and ended up taking the fall at least in part for his loyalty to a coach that couldn't get it done. MG could be making the same mistake.
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#114 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:58 PM

okay i get you. but i think we have ballard, hamhuis, edler, bieksa and now garrison paid over 4 million. they can't all be top 4. and if they are, 1 - 2 of them are underachieving and should be tradeable (IE: ballard ) but that's not the case.

i guess its hard for me to assess top 4 talent because anyone that's ever been good elsewhere comes here and struggles. so its either MG's talent assessment or our Coaching staff that is not up to par with what needs to be done ..


This.

And honeslty having 5 or 6 top 4 Dmen while you can afford it, isn't such a bad thing. Actually it is a major strength.
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#115 DIBdaQUIB

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 03:01 PM

I'm not going to bother with the "playing favorites" routine. We've been over and over that. AV "favors" the players that he thinks give him the best chance to win, as does every coach in league history. Remember when you claimed Rome was his "favorite"? Why didn't AV do anything to keep him around?

I may "sound" like a person who's never coached a team at a competitive level to you, but as usual, you're incorrect. (I thought we had already established that I have more real world hockey experience than you... :huh: ) I've coached competitive hockey, baseball and football. I've also worked as an assistant instructor at a hockey school formerly operated by Darcy Rota.

BTW: I don't "exalt" AV. It's statements like this that make you look childish. He bears some responsibility for the playoff losses, just not the bulk of it, IMO.


see bold^^^ choosing the correct personnel for the job is likely the biggest role the coach plays. If he continually makes the wrong choice or continues to make the same choice despite failure, would you not see that as a coaching failure? I do.
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#116 Bring_Back_Bertuzzi

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 03:01 PM

i know i am not the only one saying this but i got 1 word RUFF
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#117 k_man08

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 03:03 PM

I refuted your opinion and asked if you had anyone else in mind. If that's "attitude", then I suppose I'm guilty as charged. As are you, considering your last sentence in this post.

PS: It doesn't matter whether or not the players mentioned were rookies under AV. They were all young players who gradually worked their way into being regulars in the lineup. Most of them also developed under AV in Manitoba.


well i apologize for ending my post that way.
and to your point those players were under him in manitoba. but that also confirms arguments above how AV plays favorites. he'll go with ppl he knows.. rather than take a chance on someone else who's likely equally qualified to do the same job when one of his favorites are not working out.

its okay to go down with the ship with ppl you love. but when it comes down to winning and your favirotes don't produce a good coach should be able to operate out of his comfort zone and AV hasn't shown me (or others above) enough of that in the past or even now.
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#118 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 03:10 PM

I'm not going to bother with the "playing favorites" routine. We've been over and over that. AV "favors" the players that he thinks give him the best chance to win, as does every coach in league history. Remember when you claimed Rome was his "favorite"? Why didn't AV do anything to keep him around?

I may "sound" like a person who's never coached a team at a competitive level to you, but as usual, you're incorrect. (I thought we had already established that I have more real world hockey experience than you... :huh: ) I've coached competitive hockey, baseball and football. I've also worked as an assistant instructor at a hockey school formerly operated by Darcy Rota.

BTW: I don't "exalt" AV. It's statements like this that make you look childish. He bears some responsibility for the playoff losses, just not the bulk of it, IMO.


Exactly....Av favors the players HE THINKS gives the team the best chance to win........how many times does he get to be proven wrong in the playoffs before there is a change though? It is already overdue imo.

If you have coached that much and you still do not see that a coach needs to get the most out of all of his players for the team to be successful and that he needs to put his own "favorites" and "ego" behind what is best for the team, than I am glad you never coached my kid.

Stubbornness and favoritism to that degree amounts to nothing more than lazy and ineffectual coaching. Anyone can keep doing the same things over and over hoping they will finally work.
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#119 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 03:15 PM

see bold^^^ choosing the correct personnel for the job is likely the biggest role the coach plays. If he continually makes the wrong choice or continues to make the same choice despite failure, would you not see that as a coaching failure? I do.

I would. However, your definition of "wrong" and and "failure" are different than mine..
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#120 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 03:17 PM

Exactly....Av favors the players HE THINKS gives the team the best chance to win........how many times does he get to be proven wrong in the playoffs before there is a change though? It is already overdue imo.

If you have coached that much and you still do not see that a coach needs to get the most out of all of his players for the team to be successful and that he needs to put his own "favorites" and "ego" behind what is best for the team, than I am glad you never coached my kid.

Stubbornness and favoritism to that degree amounts to nothing more than lazy and ineffectual coaching. Anyone can keep doing the same things over and over hoping they will finally work.

Proven wrong? he had nobody left against the Bruins. This whole idea of "the team lost, so that proves I'm right" is why I can never take your opinion as anything more than whining.
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!




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