AV quote re: Team Chemistry

[canuckrelevantname]

I don't think you fill the positions of the reigning Norris trophy winner (out the whole season after playing 14 games), your #1 C who was 4th in scoring last season (had to undergo surgery after playing 5 games), and your #1 goalscorer (out the whole season after playing 15 games).

Plus, Jared Cowen, who was one of their top 4 d-men last year, has been out the whole season and won't return. They just recently lost their ES icetime leader in Marc Methot. They've also lost more depth on D in Mike Lundin. They have been able to fill in the loss of their (at the time) Vezina frontrunner with solid goaltending from Lehner and Bishop.

Kesler and Booth are the only guys who have been out since the start of the season (both have played more games than either Spezza or Cowen, so their goes that argument), plus we have less players who are out for the season, and we certainly haven't lost Henrik (our #1 C), Daniel (our leading goalscorer), Hamhuis (our #1 D, who is not on the same level as Karlsson at all), or either goalie at any point in the season for any amount of time. So yes, their injury problems are exponentially worse, and it is the giant difference I'm making it out to be.

Yet they have a better record in a tougher division (for reference, we are only 2 points ahead of Toronto, the 4th place team in the NE, because of 4 more OTLs). That's despite far worse injuries to an already weaker to begin with team. And though lots of credit can be given to the goalies stepping up, it's really been their whole team that steps up. Watch their games, it's basically an AHL roster playing their hearts out and being well-coached against tougher competition. And they have a better record than us. Not monumentally bigger, but considering a team that has no business being in a playoff spot is doing better than a team that should be in the top 3, then it's not a fallacious argument to say "they're holding it together while we're falling apart"; fine is a relative term.

I don't think the sky is falling or anything, just making a counter-argument. But it's not hard to see the Canucks have been playing far beneath their potential this season, and AV might just be holding us back.

TL;DR

Just because the Canucks are at a similar spot in the standings compared to Ottawa doesn't mean they're on the same level. The back-to-back President's Trophy winners in the 2nd weakest division in the league are being outperformed by an AHL team in one of the toughest divisions in the league. Coaching is likely to blame.

[CanucksJay]

AV's fix for the chemistry problem should be to step down and hand in his resignation...

[Captain Aerosex]

I think you can fill the position but it won't be filled as well as he did. Kind of like trying to fill the spot of a selke winner. I'm not trying to downplay their injuries and say that they can just be plugged with other players.

You did say most of the positions they've lost they've been able to fill. Which is quite false really. They've just played well as a team, while the Canucks haven't.

Lundin isn't much of a loss but Cowan is. I had forgotten about him. Do we know how long Methot is out? I mean didn't the guy just go down? I mean you're using guys who have just been injured to explain how the Senators have triumphed over injuries the entire season. You don't see a problem with that as a part of the argument?

No, I just pointed out that Methot was recently injured just to make sure I didn't leave any out. I used other guys like Spezza, Cowan, Michalek, and Karlsson as examples of how they've been winning without them for most of the season, despite your claim that the Canucks have dealt with injury problems longer, which is the part of your argument I had a problem with.

No there doesn't go that argument just because they've played more games. Spezza is fantastic but would you trade Kesler for him? (I would but I think I'm in the minority)It's great to talk about the positions they play with their teams it's another thing to talk about what they bring to the team. These injuries are worse than those of the Canucks but I never said otherwise.

Once again, I was referring to your claim that the Canucks had dealt with injury longer. It seemed irrelevant to me considering they'd lost Cowan at the start and Spezza just 5 games in, and Kes and Booth had both returned at points and had more games plugged in than either Spezza or Cowan. Also, I would say Spezza and Karlsson each bring a lot to their Sens, wouldn't you? Potentially more than Kes brings to the Canucks. And I would actually trade him, seeing as Booth's cap hit is on the shelf and we could also pick up a solid two-way C if needed. I think the market value is more than the value to the team, but regardless we'd be a scary team with Spezza so I think I would do it.

Why do I get the sense you are under the impression I'm saying the Canucks have it worse or as bad as the Senators? Even with their injuries the Senators have a pretty decent team. Is it as good as they're record? No they are stepping it up absolutely. The argument however is that they aren't doing that much better than the Canucks are...which they aren't.

They're doing better relatively. That's what I'm saying and what you're ignoring. I said nothing about how they're doing far better than the Canucks on the scoresheet, just that they're a team that's not making excuses, despite far more excuses available. Don't even have to look at their records, just watch the games. The Canucks games are mostly uninspired hockey, the Sens are busting their asses. Watch their games, not even to prove a point, but just because you'll like watching the heart they bring game in and out.

And yes they have a tougher division. Look at their last 10 games though and you'll see that it's the tougher teams have beaten them. Thankfully they've had a slumping Rangers team, the Sabres and a couple of games against the fantastic Islanders. It's all about perspective Witch.

They didn't lose a single game during that stretch by more than a goal (they've only lost games by 2 or more goals 3 times this season, 2 of which the surplus goal lead was from empty net goals), 2/3s of their losses were in extra time. Boston and Montreal, top 5 teams in the league, beat them in a shootout (Bruins also beat them once in OT). But they actually have .500 record against Montreal this season, interestingly enough. That tells me they're bringing a solid effort every game and their opponent will know they've been in a fight. As for beating weaker teams...well at least they can! BTW, the 'slumping' Rangers that they beat were actually riding a 4 game win streak at the time.

Most of what you've said in your summary is overblown versions of the truth. The Canucks are under-performing, the Senators are hardly rostering an AHL team though. The guys they have brought in have stepped it up, especially the goalies which is really helping out the defense. That is the major difference between us and them. One could point to coaching staff not able to motivate these guys for sure. Also a person could make a good argument that they options they have are quite a bit better than the options we have. Both are probably true.

Well, their leading scorers, Gonchar and Turris, are ranked somewhere in the 80s in terms of league scoring. So their success must be team D and goaltending. But half of their top D has been knocked out with injury. And both their goalies are literally AHL goalies (if Leclaire hadn't retired prior to the season, Bishop would be in Birmingham). You make your call as to the quality of the line-up. If you didn't know anything else about the team other than the players on the current line-up, you'd probably think they were a cellar dweller. The point is that they are an example of a team that has every excuse to under-perform, yet they are not. Canucks are a team with no excuse to under-perform, yet they are. Kesler's not been effective going back to the Boston series. I recognize what he brings to the team, but you would think they'd have adapted by now (and it seems they had judging by their President's Trophy last season, so the issue is the team's mentality itself).

[aqua59]

Jeff Paterson ‏@patersonjeff

AV made this comment earlier today and it reminded me of two of my hockey teams.

One year, our team came together and we fought like hell. There wasn't anything we wouldn't have done for one another. We trained for a tournament and became like a big groups of sisters. Went into the tournament, played our hearts out, and won the Championship.

The next year, essentially the same group of players started training for another tournament. Everyone was uncommitted, no one trained as hard, we weren't too close to each other, and we went into the tournament and lost.

How can a team with the same people be so different from year to year?

What might it be that has caused the "difference" in this Canucks team from teams of the past? I have to wonder if it has something to do with Manny. He really seemed like the glue of the team. And maybe there is some discord about how the Canucks have handled his situation?

Maybe the injuries are taking a toll?

Perhaps it's just a lack of motivation? To get to game 7 and not win the Cup has got to have emotional repercussions no?

The lack of chemistry is very notable. The team doesn't seem to be laying it all on the line for each other like they used to. Chemistry is so important. I hope the boys come together and are on the same page again soon. You can't win if you're not marching as one.

[Erik Karlsson]

They need to bring in a bunch of new players imo.

Too many of these guys are playing too comfortable and are emotionally wrecked from Boston.

Also AV needs to go, which I have been saying since we lost to Boston in the finals.

Too bad it looks like we're going to have to wait till next season to see anything major done most likely.

[Aladeen]

I don't think you fill the positions of the reigning Norris trophy winner (out the whole season after playing 14 games), your #1 C who was 4th in scoring last season (had to undergo surgery after playing 5 games), and your #1 goalscorer (out the whole season after playing 15 games).

Plus, Jared Cowen, who was one of their top 4 d-men last year, has been out the whole season and won't return. They just recently lost their ES icetime leader in Marc Methot. They've also lost more depth on D in Mike Lundin. They have been able to fill in the loss of their (at the time) Vezina frontrunner with solid goaltending from Lehner and Bishop.

Kesler and Booth are the only guys who have been out since the start of the season (both have played more games than either Spezza or Cowen, so their goes that argument), plus we have less players who are out for the season, and we certainly haven't lost Henrik (our #1 C), Daniel (our leading goalscorer), Hamhuis (our #1 D, who is not on the same level as Karlsson at all), or either goalie at any point in the season for any amount of time. So yes, their injury problems are exponentially worse, and it is the giant difference I'm making it out to be.

Yet they have a better record in a tougher division (for reference, we are only 2 points ahead of Toronto, the 4th place team in the NE, because of 4 more OTLs). That's despite far worse injuries to an already weaker to begin with team. And though lots of credit can be given to the goalies stepping up, it's really been their whole team that steps up. Watch their games, it's basically an AHL roster playing their hearts out and being well-coached against tougher competition. And they have a better record than us. Not monumentally bigger, but considering a team that has no business being in a playoff spot is doing better than a team that should be in the top 3, then it's not a fallacious argument to say "they're holding it together while we're falling apart"; fine is a relative term.

I don't think the sky is falling or anything, just making a counter-argument. But it's not hard to see the Canucks have been playing far beneath their potential this season, and AV might just be holding us back.

TL;DR

Just because the Canucks are at a similar spot in the standings compared to Ottawa doesn't mean they're on the same level. The back-to-back President's Trophy winners in the 2nd weakest division in the league are being outperformed by an AHL team in one of the toughest divisions in the league. Coaching is likely to blame.

[Captain Aerosex]

OMG go cheer for the Sens then. They are a different team under different circumstances, kudos to them for what they are doing but if you think even at this point the Sens have better shot at the cup than the Canucks do you are on some serious delusion-inducing medication.

Everyone here whines and complains that this team only does good in the Regular season, but have everything to prove in the playoffs... Then panic the moment they are not dominating the regualr season.

All that matters is that the Canucks make the playoffs with a full healthy roster with some deadline acquisitions to bolster weakness.. then its a new season and no one will remember an 8-3 loss to the red wings or a 3rd period meltdown in a game they were leading.

Fans, Media, whiners and self-loathing Canuck fans need to lay off this team and AV. Rather than analyzing ever sentence they guy speaks, looking for hidden meaning or something to nail the next scapegoat to the cross on, why not try cheering for this team? Supporting this team? Giving them the benefit of the doubt that it is hard to win in the NHL, and being constantly scrutinized and harassed at every turn by people who should be supporting you, makes it that much harder to accomplish that goal.

Saying the Canucks should do X because the Sens are doing Y makes no sense.

[NuxFan09]

Half halfheartedly watching the last nights game the second period book ended by two lazy non motivated periods I came to a conclusion. A conclusion I'm sure MG has already come to also. This team has peaked. Their shelf life is done.

The one thing I pray is that Gillis doesn't do and I don't believe he'll do, is panic.

I do hope this team misses the playoffs in a distinctive way. That way there are no questions.

AV has to go.

Luongo has to be resolved.

Vancouver's window for a Cup right now is over. Start the retooling, do not be a Calgary Flames organization. Do it now so you don't have to rebuild.

I accept it now.

[NuxFan09]

OMG go cheer for the Sens then. They are a different team under different circumstances, kudos to them for what they are doing but if you think even at this point the Sens have better shot at the cup than the Canucks do you are on some serious delusion-inducing medication.

Everyone here whines and complains that this team only does good in the Regular season, but have everything to prove in the playoffs... Then panic the moment they are not dominating the regualr season.

All that matters is that the Canucks make the playoffs with a full healthy roster with some deadline acquisitions to bolster weakness.. then its a new season and no one will remember an 8-3 loss to the red wings or a 3rd period meltdown in a game they were leading.

Fans, Media, whiners and self-loathing Canuck fans need to lay off this team and AV. Rather than analyzing ever sentence they guy speaks, looking for hidden meaning or something to nail the next scapegoat to the cross on, why not try cheering for this team? Supporting this team? Giving them the benefit of the doubt that it is hard to win in the NHL, and being constantly scrutinized and harassed at every turn by people who should be supporting you, makes it that much harder to accomplish that goal.

Saying the Canucks should do X because the Sens are doing Y makes no sense.

[Aladeen]

Kindly step off your soap box buddy. For the most part, people are objectively concluding that this team is not a contender anymore and therefor should make some changes and look to the future. Most of us aren't panicking or hating on the team or being bandwagoners. People like you just can't handle when the whole fanbase isn't collectively jizzing over the team.

[Aladeen]

I'n just debating EOTM on something he said that I disagree with (to be honest, we've gone fairly off-topic) because he seems like an intelligent guy to have an argument with. If you read what I said you'll notice I said I don't think the sky is falling, and if you know anything about me I cheer for the Canucks no matter what the record.

And I never at any point said the Sens have a better chance at winning the Cup. Just that people need to stop making excuses for the Canucks, especially when they'd been directly compared to the Sens and what they've done because to me that's a poor comparison to make.

Like I said, gone off-topic. Chill though.

[Captain Aerosex]

Right, you feel its a poor comparison but write out an essay doing exactly that

[RUPERTKBD]

I do hope this team misses the playoffs in a distinctive way. That way there are no questions.

AV has to go.

[Aladeen]

As in I think it's a poor comparison to make to say the Canucks are doing fine.

[404error]

The time to become sellers is now. Get rid of all the UFA's you don't plan on resigning in the offseason. Trade pieces you don't see fitting moving forward. Trade a goalie. Like the options are going to be better once the reality of next season and a lower cap hit sets in. Get some prospects. Get some picks in a deep draft. It wasn't that long ago that Philly was an aging team with moderate playoff success. They're now much younger and with goaltending would be quite competitive. Sitting on your hands and doing nothing isn't going to work. It didn't work last off season. It's not going to work this offseason.

[Aladeen]

It's interesting, because I remember in 2009 there were quite a few CDCers saying the same thing. During the 8 game losing streak, they were actually happy, because it meant that AV would likely be fired. When Burrows broke the streak against the 'Canes, there were actually so-called fans upset about it.

Of course we all remember what happened the year after.

I for one, would never hope to see my team lose, for any reason.

[wallstreetamigo]

I agree that AV is part of the chemistry issue if there is a chemistry issue but you do realize we only have 1 more loss than Ottawa right with 1 game in hand. The records are not all that different really.

Ott 16 -8 -6

Van 14-9 -6

I've seen the Ottawa is doing fine a few times and if they're doing fine than so are the Canucks really.

[Erik Karlsson]

I would say the difference is the Canucks are not missing a #1 goalie, a #1 winger, a #1 center, and a #1 defenceman. And the Sens play in a much tougher division. These are definitely mitigating factors in suggesting the Canucks are playing as well as the Sens are.

The Sens are playing wit heart and determination every game which the Canucks are really not. If I had my choice I would take the Sens "success" over the Canucks any day right now. Because hard work and battling through adversity always works better in the playoffs than making do and denying there are any issues.

[NuxFan09]

Amen Brother!

OTHERS Take Note...RUPERTKBD is a Fan!

If you want to see a team lose... you are the opposite! This is irregardless of your rationale, predictions as to what you think may happen in the future.

A FAN: Wants to see the Canucks win the faceoff, win the puck battle, win the momentum, with the puck race, win the goaltending duel, win the shots taken, win the shots blocked, but most importantly WIN the Game... to win the next Game... to make the playoffs... to win the series... to move forwards in the playoffs to have a chance to hopefully WIN THE CUP.

Any backwards momentum in that and you're doing it wrong!

[WL Canuck Fan]

If I have something to say concerning the Canucks and the way we PLAY vs the way we PLAYED, it is that we overreacted and toned the team down too much.

When the notice went out for players to stop agitating and to play whistle to whistle instead, it may have been the right decision at the time due to the fact that we were taking unnecessary penalties, bit it is no longer true. The game has changed over the last three years, and not for the better I am afraid. The team was built to play whistle to whistle, and is encouraged to do so, but the game is not played that way anymore.

We have compensated back the other direction by having guys who will drop the gloves, but where is that getting a team? We think it sends a message, but it does not.

Survey NHLFights, and what you see is the team fight leaders are and the league position leaders are not even close to the same.

Standings vs Fights

1) Chi = 17th

2) Ana = 13th

3) Pit = 22nd

4) Mon = 15th

5) Bos = 4th

6) Ott = 26th

7) Los = 9th

8) Min = 11th

9) StL = 12th

10) Van = 3rd

1st in fights is 14th in the standings, 2nd is 19th, 3rd is us, 4th is Boston, 5th is in 25th spot.

So, I conclude that fights are not the answer to this seasons NHL, or the stats would show otherwise.

What is this years NHL is hack, slash, grab, stink face, cross check hockey. BUT do not drop the gloves. When Ryan Suter barely gets a penalty for cross checking Henrik Sedin so hard in the ribs you wonder if he broke one, you have to play the same. May I remind you, Suter has not dropped the gloves this year. We are having a hard time getting to out opponents net because they are playing rough and nasty in front of the net, eventually our guys do not want to stand there. But we are not making them hurt when they stand in front of ours. I mean hurt, slashed arms, cross checked ribs, speared sides, the works.

We have to play the game the way it is being reffed, and this is the way it is being reffed.