Team Toughness - How do we compare against other teams?

[LuongoMVP]

Saw Jordan Nolan taking liberties on our Captain today and I am disappointed by the lack of team toughness we have to address when other teams run our star players. The bigger problem is that it's not an isolated incident.

I know AV preaches to play between the whistles, etc, but that does not address the issue. I'm not suggesting we need someone to fight Jordan Nolan, but our team should hit legally back or increase the physicality on their skilled players. I think our team lacks the team toughness and intimidation, which is much needed to go far in the playoffs.

If an incident like that happened to Boston, Toronto or Ottawa, you know full well that you will need to answer to someone like Thorton, Orr or Neil. What are your thoughts?

On a related note, I've always longed for a legitimate top 6-9 power forward like a Ryan Clowe or Chris Stewart on this team who will keep others in line, and also have some skill to back it up. Perhaps Kassian can grow into one of these players, some day.

[ButterBean]

This is why MG traded for Kassian, to increase team toughness. In my opinion, he's built perfectly for the Sedin line, while he

's still raw in his defensive game and his offense a bit. I don't really feel threatened by LA that much. While they do have big bodies who can hit well, I don't feel like there's guys on their team who can really take liberties with us and they don't have many great fighters. The problem is other teams stars don't get knocked around so easily and ours need to be protected, but Burrows is definitely not the answer, he fights like a pansy. Boston, I do have worries about though if we were to meet in the finals again, which is highly unlikely.

I don't think anyone on our team can handle Lucic, yet alone McQuaid or Thornton. Other teams in the West I think we can measure up though. While it isn't our biggest problem right now, I'd be looking at Morrow or Clowe right now which could be unlikely but it seems like there is very few options for increase our top 9 toughness.

[Xur]

I think you would be hard pressed to find a team that gets pushed around more then the Canucks.

There are 30 teams in the NHL and 29 of them would never have put up with Nolan manhandling their Captains.

[BedBeats™2.0]

Funny, the Canucks got a bit bigger, which everyone wanted.

Even so, i always thought they were still tough. This season, they are not certainly tough to play against.

Because our superstars get mistreated, and some goon doesnt flatten them on the next shift does not mean we lack toughness. Its an indifference that is a team rule handed down by management.

MG must go ape that he has tried to change the culture of the team for favourable calls, but gets no balance in how the team are assessed penalties.

[Xur]

Nolan stood over Henrik for quite a while pushing him around. Last time I checked Henrik wasn't the only player on the ice. No one stepped in. Unless this team starts playing like a team, we are completely screwed going into the playoffs.

Keith hurts a Sedin, no retribution, Nolan hurts Henrik, no retribution and these are supposed to be our rivals?

Refs aernt going to give us fair calls. They havent for years if you think they are going to start this year for some reason your delusional. And we cant score on the PP anyways.

We can barely score, our defense practically wraps up the puck every game as they gift it the opposition time and time again.

Oh yeah and we let anyone, even our most hated rivals, walk all over us without fear of anything, because nothing is going to happen. No penalty and no team mate stepping up to protect their captain.

I dont see a stanley cup winning formula in there, do you?

But hey, we didn't take a penalty so its alright.

[GarthButcher]

I almost never post on here, because people are so harsh about topics that have been discussed before, but I felt pretty strongly about this subject after watching the game last night, and I saw the topic, so here goes:

I live in a time zone where I can't watch too many games. Yesterday was a nice exception.

I watched the game with my wife, who fell asleep half way through the second. After the game, she asked if I enjoyed it, since she said I sounded angry a lot while watching it.

I'm not a guy who gets angry if my team loses. If you do, I don't think sports is a healthy pass time. But what I get angry about when I watch sports, is the cheap shots, diving, faking...basically the unsportsmanlike stuff.

Don't get me wrong...I grew up playing hockey, and I was a stay-at-home physical defencemen. I was never afraid of getting dirty. I actually really enjoyed that part of the game.

Also, growing up watching the Canucks, I cheered for Garth, Gino, and all the tough guys the Canucks had on the team over the years. When you went to a game (for 5 or 10 bucks btw), at first you thought they might win, but by the end you just hoped that they would have a few fights and show a good effort. Usually they didn't disappoint.

Obviously the Bertuzzi incident changed a lot about the organization, as times were changing in the NHL. The league was trying to sanitize its image, while the Canucks had to get out from under the weight of that scandal. The Canucks shifted away from their grittier past, while the league worked to try to give off an image of being "clean."

The incidents where I got angry last night were: the cross check to Hank, Tanev getting hammered from behind by Penner, Burrows getting cranked from behind (and mugged throughout the game, except that one was just too obvious to not call), and various runs on Schneids.

Physical hockey is a simple game. It's tit for tat. They take a shot, you hit back, and vice versa. The moment that the other team doesn't respond to your shot, you take a harder shot and they lose face. That's how you win.

When I see these incidents, I wait for the Canucks response. When Hank gets hammered, someone has to hammer the perpetrator. Someone has to take out Penner. I keep thinking that they're taking a number, and Sestito or someone will come get them. But it never happens. Bieksa talks a lot, but doesn't go after too many people. This is a problem. The team does not stand up for itself.

If discipline is going to be taken over by the league, and the tit for tat is gone (yeah right), then it has to be even handed. As it stands right now, certain teams know that they won't get suspensions, while other teams will for the same thing. All of those incidents yesterday were much worse than any Edler or Hansen hit (like these guys are cheap shot artists...what a joke).

The Canucks are hamstrung right now, because they're not built to be cheap, and the moment they push the line at all, the league hammers them.

If players from Chi, NY, Bos, LA, etc. know that the most they're gonna get is a couple of minutes; no punches in the face (or worse), long suspensions, etc, they're gonna keep doing this stuff. Who wouldn't if it could give you an edge.

There's a lot of hollow talk about how horrible the NHL is. But I'm getting to the point where that logo enrages me. The NHL stands for corruption, favouritism, and a general lack of integrity. It's becoming a BS league, that's almost not worth watching.

I've been a Canucks fan for 30 years, but I'm torn. I love the team, and I love to watch them win, but I'm growing to hate the league. The hypocracy, the inconsistency, and the corruption.

It's getting to the point where the frustration is spoiling my enjoying the games.

I was a physical player, and I love the rough stuff. I loved the old culture of the Canucks, and when they combined that work ethic and toughness with the right balance of skill in 94, it was magic. They came so close to taking down a champion in waiting.

But don't think the team could have made it there without Diduck, Odjick, Hunter, Momesso, and the like. They weren't pushovers by any stretch.

Now we've gotta fight other teams and the league. I don't really know what the answer is, and it's making me doubt being a fan.

I'll always love the Canucks, but I'm beginning to hate the NHL.

[BedBeats™2.0]

Nolan stood over Henrik for quite a while pushing him around. Last time I checked Henrik wasn't the only player on the ice. No one stepped in. Unless this team starts playing like a team, we are completely screwed going into the playoffs.

Keith hurts a Sedin, no retribution, Nolan hurts Henrik, no retribution and these are supposed to be our rivals?

Refs aernt going to give us fair calls. They havent for years if you think they are going to start this year for some reason your delusional. And we cant score on the PP anyways.

We can barely score, our defense practically wraps up the puck every game as they gift it the opposition time and time again.

Oh yeah and we let anyone, even our most hated rivals, walk all over us without fear of anything, because nothing is going to happen. No penalty and no team mate stepping up to protect their captain.

I dont see a stanley cup winning formula in there, do you?

But hey, we didn't take a penalty so its alright.

[Xur]

The lack of goalscoring underscores that the team could get away with mucking it up and looking for payback. As it is right now with AV rolling 4 lines, its dicey to really get involved like we see with other teams. Along with the underachievement in goal scoring, our PK is a former shadow of itself.

You also forget that Hank and Danny (especially Danny, people overlook how often he is manhandled and played hard against) are used to it.

I like that they have been more chirpy and are doling out bodychecks, becuase they can actually get away with it now.

But sorry folks, with important points to be won in a ridiculously close conference, i probably would be not risk taking on ice as far as after whistle happenings.

Now if the team were healthy, we might be having a very different chat altogether,

[-DLC-]

You see what happens though?....our guys are booted, they look for any excuse to suspend Canucks. We simply can't afford to lose any more players.

We beat them, and they can hang their sorry heads on the way out because their goonery and whining did nothing to help their game.

Sure, I agree (and like it when they do fight back)....but it just doesn't work out for us. I think we've had a good balance of push back and toughness this year. That's the damn refs job - what a pool of slimy fish that allow that to happen, yet a bump behind the net that a 10 year girl with a learn to skate cart could withstand has our player tossed.

Drew Doughty, this whine's for you. Cheers. Enjoy the points your team didn't get last night.

Edit (re above) How did losing make a winning statement for them?...not quite making that connection.

[Xur]

You see what happens though?....our guys are booted, they look for any excuse to suspend Canucks.

We beat them, and they can hang their sorry heads on the way out because their goonery and whining did nothing to help their game.

Sure, I agree (and like it when they do fight back)....but it just doesn't work out for us. I think we've had a good balance of push back and toughness this year. That's the damn refs job - what a pool of slimy fish that allow that to happen, yet a bump behind the net that a 10 year girl with a learn to skate cart could withstand has our player tossed.

Drew Doughty, this whine's for you. Cheers. Enjoy the points your team didn't get last night.

How did losing make a winning statement for them?...not quite getting that correlation ^...of course they're crying about it.

[Raffi Torres's Smirk]

I thought Hank actually has been playing with a lot more grit than normal, especially in that LA game. Even Raymond's been finishing his checks. I agree that overall there could be a bit more pushback but I'm not as concerned about it as I was last year.

As long as Tostito and Pinner are getting regular shifts, and Alberts sticks around, I think we can hold our own. From what I've seen from Pinner, he looks like the closest thing to filling in the hole left by Torres leaving.

[BedBeats™2.0]

Please read the post above yours. You can always tell the fans who played sports and those that have not.

If we play like this I pray we do not go to the playoffs. As of right now if we played LA in the playoffs, we would take so many injuries that our next season is dead too, and then the window will be closing and players wont sign at discounts to play here.

At the current pace Henriks Iron Man run is in dire jeopordy and its 100% because of being soft.

Like you said, its a close conference, and everyone wants to win. We are showing 29 other teams that we are not a threat and can be easily beat up till we have no roster left. If we knew LA was a soft team and we could do whatever we want without fear of reprecussion, we would do it so that we could win.

It sure is a good thing the Sedins can get beat up time and time again because no one is fighting for them and they will continue to get beat up.

LA lost, but do you think they are all crying about it? No they made a statement that we cannot beat them in a playoff series.

[Vansicle]

They have abviously been told not to respond.

I don't know by whom, but they've been neutered.

They waive Volpatti in favor of Weisse, which indicates they have a preference for a guy who is marginally better in terms of offense. They aquire Sestito, who ia bigger and tougher than both put together. In his first game he yries to check everything that moves into next week AND get into a fight. As soon as the next game you see him start to let up on finishing checks, stops looking for the big hit.

Hank starts playing with an edge. Not backing down to hattasment. Gets into it in front of crease with any and everyone, plays with more anger/edge for a few games. Reverts to doormat mode.

If they're not being told to real it in, then they truly are a pack of domesticated felines, and deserve to get pushed around.

[Dr. Hockey]

I almost never post on here, because people are so harsh about topics that have been discussed before, but I felt pretty strongly about this subject after watching the game last night, and I saw the topic, so here goes:

I live in a time zone where I can't watch too many games. Yesterday was a nice exception.

I watched the game with my wife, who fell asleep half way through the second. After the game, she asked if I enjoyed it, since she said I sounded angry a lot while watching it.

I'm not a guy who gets angry if my team loses. If you do, I don't think sports is a healthy pass time. But what I get angry about when I watch sports, is the cheap shots, diving, faking...basically the unsportsmanlike stuff.

Don't get me wrong...I grew up playing hockey, and I was a stay-at-home physical defencemen. I was never afraid of getting dirty. I actually really enjoyed that part of the game.

Also, growing up watching the Canucks, I cheered for Garth, Gino, and all the tough guys the Canucks had on the team over the years. When you went to a game (for 5 or 10 bucks btw), at first you thought they might win, but by the end you just hoped that they would have a few fights and show a good effort. Usually they didn't disappoint.

Obviously the Bertuzzi incident changed a lot about the organization, as times were changing in the NHL. The league was trying to sanitize its image, while the Canucks had to get out from under the weight of that scandal. The Canucks shifted away from their grittier past, while the league worked to try to give off an image of being "clean."

The incidents where I got angry last night were: the cross check to Hank, Tanev getting hammered from behind by Penner, Burrows getting cranked from behind (and mugged throughout the game, except that one was just too obvious to not call), and various runs on Schneids.

Physical hockey is a simple game. It's tit for tat. They take a shot, you hit back, and vice versa. The moment that the other team doesn't respond to your shot, you take a harder shot and they lose face. That's how you win.

When I see these incidents, I wait for the Canucks response. When Hank gets hammered, someone has to hammer the perpetrator. Someone has to take out Penner. I keep thinking that they're taking a number, and Sestito or someone will come get them. But it never happens. Bieksa talks a lot, but doesn't go after too many people. This is a problem. The team does not stand up for itself.

If discipline is going to be taken over by the league, and the tit for tat is gone (yeah right), then it has to be even handed. As it stands right now, certain teams know that they won't get suspensions, while other teams will for the same thing. All of those incidents yesterday were much worse than any Edler or Hansen hit (like these guys are cheap shot artists...what a joke).

The Canucks are hamstrung right now, because they're not built to be cheap, and the moment they push the line at all, the league hammers them.

If players from Chi, NY, Bos, LA, etc. know that the most they're gonna get is a couple of minutes; no punches in the face (or worse), long suspensions, etc, they're gonna keep doing this stuff. Who wouldn't if it could give you an edge.

There's a lot of hollow talk about how horrible the NHL is. But I'm getting to the point where that logo enrages me. The NHL stands for corruption, favouritism, and a general lack of integrity. It's becoming a BS league, that's almost not worth watching.

I've been a Canucks fan for 30 years, but I'm torn. I love the team, and I love to watch them win, but I'm growing to hate the league. The hypocracy, the inconsistency, and the corruption.

It's getting to the point where the frustration is spoiling my enjoying the games.

I was a physical player, and I love the rough stuff. I loved the old culture of the Canucks, and when they combined that work ethic and toughness with the right balance of skill in 94, it was magic. They came so close to taking down a champion in waiting.

But don't think the team could have made it there without Diduck, Odjick, Hunter, Momesso, and the like. They weren't pushovers by any stretch.

Now we've gotta fight other teams and the league. I don't really know what the answer is, and it's making me doubt being a fan.

I'll always love the Canucks, but I'm beginning to hate the NHL.

[Dr. Hockey]

I almost never post on here, because people are so harsh about topics that have been discussed before, but I felt pretty strongly about this subject after watching the game last night, and I saw the topic, so here goes:

I live in a time zone where I can't watch too many games. Yesterday was a nice exception.

I watched the game with my wife, who fell asleep half way through the second. After the game, she asked if I enjoyed it, since she said I sounded angry a lot while watching it.

I'm not a guy who gets angry if my team loses. If you do, I don't think sports is a healthy pass time. But what I get angry about when I watch sports, is the cheap shots, diving, faking...basically the unsportsmanlike stuff.

Don't get me wrong...I grew up playing hockey, and I was a stay-at-home physical defencemen. I was never afraid of getting dirty. I actually really enjoyed that part of the game.

Also, growing up watching the Canucks, I cheered for Garth, Gino, and all the tough guys the Canucks had on the team over the years. When you went to a game (for 5 or 10 bucks btw), at first you thought they might win, but by the end you just hoped that they would have a few fights and show a good effort. Usually they didn't disappoint.

Obviously the Bertuzzi incident changed a lot about the organization, as times were changing in the NHL. The league was trying to sanitize its image, while the Canucks had to get out from under the weight of that scandal. The Canucks shifted away from their grittier past, while the league worked to try to give off an image of being "clean."

The incidents where I got angry last night were: the cross check to Hank, Tanev getting hammered from behind by Penner, Burrows getting cranked from behind (and mugged throughout the game, except that one was just too obvious to not call), and various runs on Schneids.

Physical hockey is a simple game. It's tit for tat. They take a shot, you hit back, and vice versa. The moment that the other team doesn't respond to your shot, you take a harder shot and they lose face. That's how you win.

When I see these incidents, I wait for the Canucks response. When Hank gets hammered, someone has to hammer the perpetrator. Someone has to take out Penner. I keep thinking that they're taking a number, and Sestito or someone will come get them. But it never happens. Bieksa talks a lot, but doesn't go after too many people. This is a problem. The team does not stand up for itself.

If discipline is going to be taken over by the league, and the tit for tat is gone (yeah right), then it has to be even handed. As it stands right now, certain teams know that they won't get suspensions, while other teams will for the same thing. All of those incidents yesterday were much worse than any Edler or Hansen hit (like these guys are cheap shot artists...what a joke).

The Canucks are hamstrung right now, because they're not built to be cheap, and the moment they push the line at all, the league hammers them.

If players from Chi, NY, Bos, LA, etc. know that the most they're gonna get is a couple of minutes; no punches in the face (or worse), long suspensions, etc, they're gonna keep doing this stuff. Who wouldn't if it could give you an edge.

There's a lot of hollow talk about how horrible the NHL is. But I'm getting to the point where that logo enrages me. The NHL stands for corruption, favouritism, and a general lack of integrity. It's becoming a BS league, that's almost not worth watching.

I've been a Canucks fan for 30 years, but I'm torn. I love the team, and I love to watch them win, but I'm growing to hate the league. The hypocracy, the inconsistency, and the corruption.

It's getting to the point where the frustration is spoiling my enjoying the games.

I was a physical player, and I love the rough stuff. I loved the old culture of the Canucks, and when they combined that work ethic and toughness with the right balance of skill in 94, it was magic. They came so close to taking down a champion in waiting.

But don't think the team could have made it there without Diduck, Odjick, Hunter, Momesso, and the like. They weren't pushovers by any stretch.

Now we've gotta fight other teams and the league. I don't really know what the answer is, and it's making me doubt being a fan.

I'll always love the Canucks, but I'm beginning to hate the NHL.

[Dr. Hockey]

I almost never post on here, because people are so harsh about topics that have been discussed before, but I felt pretty strongly about this subject after watching the game last night, and I saw the topic, so here goes:

I live in a time zone where I can't watch too many games. Yesterday was a nice exception.

I watched the game with my wife, who fell asleep half way through the second. After the game, she asked if I enjoyed it, since she said I sounded angry a lot while watching it.

I'm not a guy who gets angry if my team loses. If you do, I don't think sports is a healthy pass time. But what I get angry about when I watch sports, is the cheap shots, diving, faking...basically the unsportsmanlike stuff.

Don't get me wrong...I grew up playing hockey, and I was a stay-at-home physical defencemen. I was never afraid of getting dirty. I actually really enjoyed that part of the game.

Also, growing up watching the Canucks, I cheered for Garth, Gino, and all the tough guys the Canucks had on the team over the years. When you went to a game (for 5 or 10 bucks btw), at first you thought they might win, but by the end you just hoped that they would have a few fights and show a good effort. Usually they didn't disappoint.

Obviously the Bertuzzi incident changed a lot about the organization, as times were changing in the NHL. The league was trying to sanitize its image, while the Canucks had to get out from under the weight of that scandal. The Canucks shifted away from their grittier past, while the league worked to try to give off an image of being "clean."

The incidents where I got angry last night were: the cross check to Hank, Tanev getting hammered from behind by Penner, Burrows getting cranked from behind (and mugged throughout the game, except that one was just too obvious to not call), and various runs on Schneids.

Physical hockey is a simple game. It's tit for tat. They take a shot, you hit back, and vice versa. The moment that the other team doesn't respond to your shot, you take a harder shot and they lose face. That's how you win.

When I see these incidents, I wait for the Canucks response. When Hank gets hammered, someone has to hammer the perpetrator. Someone has to take out Penner. I keep thinking that they're taking a number, and Sestito or someone will come get them. But it never happens. Bieksa talks a lot, but doesn't go after too many people. This is a problem. The team does not stand up for itself.

If discipline is going to be taken over by the league, and the tit for tat is gone (yeah right), then it has to be even handed. As it stands right now, certain teams know that they won't get suspensions, while other teams will for the same thing. All of those incidents yesterday were much worse than any Edler or Hansen hit (like these guys are cheap shot artists...what a joke).

The Canucks are hamstrung right now, because they're not built to be cheap, and the moment they push the line at all, the league hammers them.

If players from Chi, NY, Bos, LA, etc. know that the most they're gonna get is a couple of minutes; no punches in the face (or worse), long suspensions, etc, they're gonna keep doing this stuff. Who wouldn't if it could give you an edge.

There's a lot of hollow talk about how horrible the NHL is. But I'm getting to the point where that logo enrages me. The NHL stands for corruption, favouritism, and a general lack of integrity. It's becoming a BS league, that's almost not worth watching.

I've been a Canucks fan for 30 years, but I'm torn. I love the team, and I love to watch them win, but I'm growing to hate the league. The hypocracy, the inconsistency, and the corruption.

It's getting to the point where the frustration is spoiling my enjoying the games.

I was a physical player, and I love the rough stuff. I loved the old culture of the Canucks, and when they combined that work ethic and toughness with the right balance of skill in 94, it was magic. They came so close to taking down a champion in waiting.

But don't think the team could have made it there without Diduck, Odjick, Hunter, Momesso, and the like. They weren't pushovers by any stretch.

Now we've gotta fight other teams and the league. I don't really know what the answer is, and it's making me doubt being a fan.

I'll always love the Canucks, but I'm beginning to hate the NHL.

[Xur]

Many folks here have played Hockey. Really has no bearing on the discussion. - People who played sports understand what it means to be on a team and what it means to stick up for one another no matter what. People who never played sports do not understand what that is like, so henceforth it has complete bearing.

And i most certainly read that post. It was thoughtful. - I couldnt tell

Worrying about the Sedins getting pushed around, well like i said, they are used to it, That is toughness in itself. It is absolutely nothing new, yet people are posting like this is just only starting to happen. - UMMMMMM people have been talking about this for a LONG LONG time. The reason it is prominent after an LA game? Because it is so easy to see how it affects us. And being able to brag that our Sedins can get beat up every game and keep playing isnt a source of pride. How long till Henrik takes a dirty hit that takes him out for the season or longer?

Its difficult to strike the balance, for every team in the NHL. Everybody is confused about the reffing and discipline. If the Canucks MO in this time in the league is to not overreact and keep that penalty box bare, then fine. - Thats just it, we are not confused. There is obvious and glaring preferences given to some teams in this league. LA is one of them and if they can throw dirty hits every game without any reprecussion from those that are supposed to deal with it. Thats when it becomes the teams job to protect themselves.

We will see what happens. There are other teams that take punishment as well without resorting to goonery. Ive just never really cared for it in this day and age where a league gets it wrong about how to better serve the skilled players. - Defending your captain from dirty hits and non calls from the refs is hardly goonery, in fact its how you stop it. I didn't say lets go Bertuzzi him, but you HAVE to stand up for your team mates, especially your captain.

[TimberWolf]

What is it you guys are expecting to happen? Either another player is going to drop the gloves or he will not. Do you know what happens to this team when they punch a guy that refuses to fight?

Let's look at it from another perspective. The next time we play Phoenix, some Coyotes will look for some retribution on Edler. Guess what? He won't fight. So when that fails in the game, are the Coyotes lacking toughness?

Instead of this mysterious "stick up for eachother" and "lacking toughness" please say EXACTLY what you want players to do and how they will do it without the league handing out suspensions on us like it's Halloween candy.

[Vicky]

If Nolan is cranking Danny's neck with his stick while he is down on the ice, we need some pushback people.

Really we make it too easy for the refs not to call anything. If we don't care, why should they? A little pushback keeps the officials on edge, forces them to police after the whistle, maybe even be proactive.

Too often our guys are on their own, trying to deal with 2 or 3 opponents after the whistle while their linemates are skating towards the bench. It's not right.

Team toughness includes finishing checks, clearing the crease, taking your man, and standing up for one another.

"For he today that sheds his blood with me,

Shall be my brother."

[higgyfan]

If we had a good PP, the problem would solve itself.