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Team Toughness - How do we compare against other teams?


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#31 Melons

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:23 AM

If MG truly wanted to change the identity of this team he would trade Burrows. Respect to him as a player, but he is not cutting it right now. He isn't producing with the Sedins, has no toughness to protect them, and he's not getting any penalties drawn against him because of his rep. Put Kassian with the twins so they don't get bullied.


To be fair, Burr does a lot of little things that allow the Sedins to put up points, even if he never gets credited with any himself. He puts his body on the line, works hard in front of the net and in the corners, allowing the twins and D-men to put up the points. The twins and team owe him a lot.
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#32 etsen3

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:50 AM

Our toughness is fine, completely overblown issue. It's easy to pick one small incident and use it as an example of why we're soft. You can say no other team would let it happen but the reality is these incidents happen in almost every game. Last time I checked we're pretty high up in the fighting category so I think we have enough guys who can drop em.
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#33 etsen3

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:50 AM

Dp

Edited by etsen3, 24 March 2013 - 10:50 AM.

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#34 Steve Carell

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:50 AM

Toughness isn't just defending a teammate after he gets hit. Why don't we just start going after guys regardless? I mean I think everyone here would consider LA and Boston two of the most toughest teams in the league, and that's because they make the big hits and go to the dirty areas before it's really warranted.
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#35 etsen3

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:21 PM

Don't we have like the most fighting majors in the entire league?


We're currently 3rd, ahead of Boston, LA, and Philly and behind only Columbus and Toronto. We're not that soft.
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#36 Understand

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:33 PM

We need some good fighters on the team. Someone like Clowe, Lucic, Fraser etc.
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#37 spliced

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:13 AM

I thought the Canucks matched up pretty well against LA physically last game except for the Sedins and Tanev. Tanev takes more abuse than I'd like but he's still able to play his game. The Sedins on the other hand just got shut down. If the Sedin line could ever find a way to deal successfully with physical play I think the team would be fine.
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#38 Blue & Green

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 10:44 AM

I think you would be hard pressed to find a team that gets pushed around more then the Canucks.

There are 30 teams in the NHL and 29 of them would never have put up with Nolan manhandling their Captains.


Agree Bert... tired of the Canuck "turn the other cheek" thing, especially when Ref's are not supporting it. Tired of watching my team get bullied and beat up without consequence. Tired of watching my Canucks getting beat up and beat in playoff rounds by less talented teams... This team needs to stand up for each other or get players that will. If it's a team mentallity thing, then change it or change the leadership. Man I miss Ripper.
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#39 lowest common denominator

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:11 PM

Samer old same old. This team is soft. Yes they have been trying to play with "more of an edge" this year. Yes, there were a bunch of completely meaningless fights early on in the season. Fact still remains, when our top players get fed $hit sandwiches, no-one does anything about it. It's garbage. Pathetic. Thanks for retiring #19 MG! Now all the canuck players can look up to the rafters and see what it takes to get to the top of the organization. Pathetic.

Taking the topic one step further, I think the canucks have the weakest fan base in the league. Look at the posts on here! Are we cheering for a figure skating team or a hockey team? Seriously. Canucks fans have to be the weakest, whiniest, wimpiest fans in the league. Sad. Boohoo the refs boohoo the bettman boohoo those canadian boys are ragdolling the Sedins again boofrackinghoo
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#40 Cromeslab

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:48 PM

It's been going on too long.Team philosophy needs to adjust.
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#41 Bodee

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:55 PM

We are undoubtedly tough enough............we always have been. There are no faireys on this team. It is just that we don't have pushback when things get nasty.
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#42 Bodee

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:01 PM

Samer old same old. This team is soft. Yes they have been trying to play with "more of an edge" this year. Yes, there were a bunch of completely meaningless fights early on in the season. Fact still remains, when our top players get fed $hit sandwiches, no-one does anything about it. It's garbage. Pathetic. Thanks for retiring #19 MG! Now all the canuck players can look up to the rafters and see what it takes to get to the top of the organization. Pathetic.

Taking the topic one step further, I think the canucks have the weakest fan base in the league. Look at the posts on here! Are we cheering for a figure skating team or a hockey team? Seriously. Canucks fans have to be the weakest, whiniest, wimpiest fans in the league. Sad. Boohoo the refs boohoo the bettman boohoo those canadian boys are ragdolling the Sedins again boofrackinghoo


How many games have you watched exactly...............Not many by that post. There is a world of difference between toughness and pushback. Lack of pushback only becomes apparent when the referees decide to swallow their whistle.

That is unfair but it is generally par for the playoffs. This team is one of the toughest in the league, given consistent refereeing. In fact it is probably one of the reasons teams like Boston start the dirty stuff because they realise we won't be intimidated in fair play.
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#43 kazin!

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:16 PM

Kassian needs to be with the twins when he's healthy and into the playoffs. Give him a big role. He embraced it and excelled in it at the beginning of the season. I have no doubts he has the skill and determination to do it again. Score big goals, hit the opposing team's top D pairing and defend the Sedins. He's a huge guy who can skate and kill people if he was given some free rein.

Burrows and Kesler would be an ideal second line too. Great defensive awareness and an ability to put the puck into the net while agitating the crap out of opposing teams' scorers.

I'm a little wary if we enter the playoffs with Burrows on the first and Kassian on the third.

We have to start taking the body on opposing teams' scorers.





Note the Hawks' response to Mitchell's hit.

Edited by kazin!, 25 March 2013 - 01:17 PM.

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#44 KeslerBEAST

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:19 PM

when the leaders of your team don't retaliate it's hard to not follow their lead, what if you defend them and henriks like "I'm ok but now you just took us off the powerplay" and then AV demotes you
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#45 lowest common denominator

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:52 PM

No offense Bode but I have forgotten about more games than you will ever watch. It's evident that you have only been a "fan" for the last few years as that is all the anecdotal evidence you have to go by when speaking about the nux. (Plus I believe there is a quote from you floating around, something to the effect of "I have only been a canuck fan since 2010") Nothing wrong with that, but you have to realise what it takes to win the cup. It really hasn't changed much in a HUNDRED YEARS.

Toughness, pushback, truculence, whatever trendy handle you want to put on it this week, the Canucks don't have it, haven't had it for a long time and won't have it until the core personal changes in Van. When your Captain gets ragdolled and physiacvally abused in the finals and does nothing about it, and his twin brother does nothing about, and no-one else does a gawdammed thing about it, you lose, every time.

Now tell me more about the reffs, I'll call a whaaambulance for you.
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#46 A Skylit Drive

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:57 PM

Put kassian with the Sedins problem solved only if AV understood
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#47 GarthButcher

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:09 PM

I read a tweet from Murph yesterday saying that Nolan was fined like 1300 bucks for his cross check to the neck of Hank. That sure will teach him, the Kings, and all the goons around the league not to mess around with the former Hart Trophy winner and Scoring Champion. Payback will be coming.

Or does it say, forfeit a few minutes of your salary to take out one of the top offensive threats in the league?

Unfortunately this thread has devolved into more line juggling talk. I feel like the team needs an identity shift like some of the posters are saying. Not a mass of trades, or anything crazy. There are people on the Nucks that can play tough.

The time came 2 years ago in the finals to stop hoping that someone's gonna bail the team out when the going gets tough physically. A little late to the party, but it's time for the team to start pushing back.
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#48 Clinch16

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:45 PM

No offense Bode but I have forgotten about more games than you will ever watch. It's evident that you have only been a "fan" for the last few years as that is all the anecdotal evidence you have to go by when speaking about the nux. (Plus I believe there is a quote from you floating around, something to the effect of "I have only been a canuck fan since 2010") Nothing wrong with that, but you have to realise what it takes to win the cup. It really hasn't changed much in a HUNDRED YEARS.

Toughness, pushback, truculence, whatever trendy handle you want to put on it this week, the Canucks don't have it, haven't had it for a long time and won't have it until the core personal changes in Van. When your Captain gets ragdolled and physiacvally abused in the finals and does nothing about it, and his twin brother does nothing about, and no-one else does a gawdammed thing about it, you lose, every time.

Now tell me more about the reffs, I'll call a whaaambulance for you.


So when you speak of team toughness, do you mean like 'internet toughness' similar to what you've displayed in your posts in this thread? It'll have to be better than that or else no one will believe it.
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#49 CanucksSayEh

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:57 PM

They need to turn their focus from aggressors towards the stars of the team. Why punch Dustin Brown or Nolan in the mouth, they aren't gonna learn anything. Hit Kopitar instead. Don't swing at Keith, line up Hossa. Leave Marchand be, make the back of Seguins legs take the punishment.

Players are are lot more disciplined when you anoint a whipping boy rather than threaten them directly.
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#50 Hyzer

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 06:01 PM

We literally just need to throw the body. We need more Rome on Hortons and Mitchell on Toews type of hits. Legal, huge, backbreaking hits.
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#51 Erik Karlsson

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 06:39 PM

I almost never post on here, because people are so harsh about topics that have been discussed before, but I felt pretty strongly about this subject after watching the game last night, and I saw the topic, so here goes:

I live in a time zone where I can't watch too many games. Yesterday was a nice exception.

I watched the game with my wife, who fell asleep half way through the second. After the game, she asked if I enjoyed it, since she said I sounded angry a lot while watching it.

I'm not a guy who gets angry if my team loses. If you do, I don't think sports is a healthy pass time. But what I get angry about when I watch sports, is the cheap shots, diving, faking...basically the unsportsmanlike stuff.

Don't get me wrong...I grew up playing hockey, and I was a stay-at-home physical defencemen. I was never afraid of getting dirty. I actually really enjoyed that part of the game.

Also, growing up watching the Canucks, I cheered for Garth, Gino, and all the tough guys the Canucks had on the team over the years. When you went to a game (for 5 or 10 bucks btw), at first you thought they might win, but by the end you just hoped that they would have a few fights and show a good effort. Usually they didn't disappoint.

Obviously the Bertuzzi incident changed a lot about the organization, as times were changing in the NHL. The league was trying to sanitize its image, while the Canucks had to get out from under the weight of that scandal. The Canucks shifted away from their grittier past, while the league worked to try to give off an image of being "clean."

The incidents where I got angry last night were: the cross check to Hank, Tanev getting hammered from behind by Penner, Burrows getting cranked from behind (and mugged throughout the game, except that one was just too obvious to not call), and various runs on Schneids.

Physical hockey is a simple game. It's tit for tat. They take a shot, you hit back, and vice versa. The moment that the other team doesn't respond to your shot, you take a harder shot and they lose face. That's how you win.

When I see these incidents, I wait for the Canucks response. When Hank gets hammered, someone has to hammer the perpetrator. Someone has to take out Penner. I keep thinking that they're taking a number, and Sestito or someone will come get them. But it never happens. Bieksa talks a lot, but doesn't go after too many people. This is a problem. The team does not stand up for itself.

If discipline is going to be taken over by the league, and the tit for tat is gone (yeah right), then it has to be even handed. As it stands right now, certain teams know that they won't get suspensions, while other teams will for the same thing. All of those incidents yesterday were much worse than any Edler or Hansen hit (like these guys are cheap shot artists...what a joke).

The Canucks are hamstrung right now, because they're not built to be cheap, and the moment they push the line at all, the league hammers them.

If players from Chi, NY, Bos, LA, etc. know that the most they're gonna get is a couple of minutes; no punches in the face (or worse), long suspensions, etc, they're gonna keep doing this stuff. Who wouldn't if it could give you an edge.

There's a lot of hollow talk about how horrible the NHL is. But I'm getting to the point where that logo enrages me. The NHL stands for corruption, favouritism, and a general lack of integrity. It's becoming a BS league, that's almost not worth watching.

I've been a Canucks fan for 30 years, but I'm torn. I love the team, and I love to watch them win, but I'm growing to hate the league. The hypocracy, the inconsistency, and the corruption.

It's getting to the point where the frustration is spoiling my enjoying the games.

I was a physical player, and I love the rough stuff. I loved the old culture of the Canucks, and when they combined that work ethic and toughness with the right balance of skill in 94, it was magic. They came so close to taking down a champion in waiting.

But don't think the team could have made it there without Diduck, Odjick, Hunter, Momesso, and the like. They weren't pushovers by any stretch.

Now we've gotta fight other teams and the league. I don't really know what the answer is, and it's making me doubt being a fan.

I'll always love the Canucks, but I'm beginning to hate the NHL.


Agreed man.

If this crap keeps up I say AV and Gillis should just dress our toughest line up when we get a little more healed up and tell the team to go wild for one game and not worry about penalties or anything.

We're never going to get fair calls so we might as well let other teams know we're not going to let biased calls and bs ruin our chances.

Sedin-Sedin-Kassian
Raymond-Schroeder-Hansen - this line should just never be split up.
Higgins-Lapierre-Weise
Sestito-Pinizzotto-Vandermeer

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Garrison
Ballard-Alberts

That 4th line could do some serious damage, just imagine watching highlights of Sestito, Kassian and Vandermeer running around dummying guys. :lol:

That would send a message to other teams.

I only propose this if the bs calls and stuff get way too out of hand.
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#52 ilduce39

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:00 AM

I have to say, having played and coached at different levels, I always emphasize physical play - but I only truly harp on it when we are obviously outmatched. You can't change your skill or athleticism in a day, but attitude is something you can control.

That being said, I'd rather win than beat up the opposition any day.
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#53 ButterBean

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:39 AM

To be fair, Burr does a lot of little things that allow the Sedins to put up points, even if he never gets credited with any himself. He puts his body on the line, works hard in front of the net and in the corners, allowing the twins and D-men to put up the points. The twins and team owe him a lot.

Any decent 3rd liner can do that though. It would be nice to put someone there who can do more.
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#54 Nuxfanabroad

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:42 AM

I almost never post on here, because people are so harsh about topics that have been discussed before, but I felt pretty strongly about this subject after watching the game last night, and I saw the topic, so here goes:

I live in a time zone where I can't watch too many games. Yesterday was a nice exception.

I watched the game with my wife, who fell asleep half way through the second. After the game, she asked if I enjoyed it, since she said I sounded angry a lot while watching it.

I'm not a guy who gets angry if my team loses. If you do, I don't think sports is a healthy pass time. But what I get angry about when I watch sports, is the cheap shots, diving, faking...basically the unsportsmanlike stuff.

Don't get me wrong...I grew up playing hockey, and I was a stay-at-home physical defencemen. I was never afraid of getting dirty. I actually really enjoyed that part of the game.

Also, growing up watching the Canucks, I cheered for Garth, Gino, and all the tough guys the Canucks had on the team over the years. When you went to a game (for 5 or 10 bucks btw), at first you thought they might win, but by the end you just hoped that they would have a few fights and show a good effort. Usually they didn't disappoint.

Obviously the Bertuzzi incident changed a lot about the organization, as times were changing in the NHL. The league was trying to sanitize its image, while the Canucks had to get out from under the weight of that scandal. The Canucks shifted away from their grittier past, while the league worked to try to give off an image of being "clean."

The incidents where I got angry last night were: the cross check to Hank, Tanev getting hammered from behind by Penner, Burrows getting cranked from behind (and mugged throughout the game, except that one was just too obvious to not call), and various runs on Schneids.

Physical hockey is a simple game. It's tit for tat. They take a shot, you hit back, and vice versa. The moment that the other team doesn't respond to your shot, you take a harder shot and they lose face. That's how you win.

When I see these incidents, I wait for the Canucks response. When Hank gets hammered, someone has to hammer the perpetrator. Someone has to take out Penner. I keep thinking that they're taking a number, and Sestito or someone will come get them. But it never happens. Bieksa talks a lot, but doesn't go after too many people. This is a problem. The team does not stand up for itself.

If discipline is going to be taken over by the league, and the tit for tat is gone (yeah right), then it has to be even handed. As it stands right now, certain teams know that they won't get suspensions, while other teams will for the same thing. All of those incidents yesterday were much worse than any Edler or Hansen hit (like these guys are cheap shot artists...what a joke).

The Canucks are hamstrung right now, because they're not built to be cheap, and the moment they push the line at all, the league hammers them.

If players from Chi, NY, Bos, LA, etc. know that the most they're gonna get is a couple of minutes; no punches in the face (or worse), long suspensions, etc, they're gonna keep doing this stuff. Who wouldn't if it could give you an edge.

There's a lot of hollow talk about how horrible the NHL is. But I'm getting to the point where that logo enrages me. The NHL stands for corruption, favouritism, and a general lack of integrity. It's becoming a BS league, that's almost not worth watching.

I've been a Canucks fan for 30 years, but I'm torn. I love the team, and I love to watch them win, but I'm growing to hate the league. The hypocracy, the inconsistency, and the corruption.

It's getting to the point where the frustration is spoiling my enjoying the games.

I was a physical player, and I love the rough stuff. I loved the old culture of the Canucks, and when they combined that work ethic and toughness with the right balance of skill in 94, it was magic. They came so close to taking down a champion in waiting.

But don't think the team could have made it there without Diduck, Odjick, Hunter, Momesso, and the like. They weren't pushovers by any stretch.

Now we've gotta fight other teams and the league. I don't really know what the answer is, and it's making me doubt being a fan.

I'll always love the Canucks, but I'm beginning to hate the NHL.


Great post-it's definitely a rigged deck.
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#55 Blue & Green

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:35 PM

I have to say, having played and coached at different levels, I always emphasize physical play - but I only truly harp on it when we are obviously outmatched. You can't change your skill or athleticism in a day, but attitude is something you can control.

That being said, I'd rather win than beat up the opposition any day.


Me too... I don't want this team to bully anyone, I just want this team to stand up to the bullies. Rather than relying on the ref's to take care of the cheapshots, take care of it ourselves. If we lose the man advantage or even get an extra penalty, so be it. I'd rather beat a team 5 on 5 than rely on the powerplay... I'd rather fight back and lose than get beat up and beat.
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#56 L'Orange

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:19 PM

We do have Jim Vandermeer in the Wolves right now. He would be more than happy to defend anyone of the Canucks if called up. The guys genuinely loves fighting, as he is one of the only guys with a smile on his face when going toe to toe with Lucic. He is a renowned tough guy.

I would hope that during the playoffs we call up Vandermeer to slot in.

If we have Vandermeer, Sestito, Weise, and Pinnizotto during the playoffs, I can almost guarantee that targeting the Sedins will go down. Add in Kassian, Bieksa, and Ballard who are all proven fighters, things don't look so bad.

Kesler isn't adverse to dropping the gloves either when healthy.

Another point that should be made is that Henrik isn't the same player he was two years ago. He doesn't flee confrontation and is throwing hits this season like a mofo.

The playoffs will be the telling tale for sure, but if MG wants to put us over the top, he could always go after Ryan Clowe. That would send a very clear message and in my opinion is the one move needed to ready us for the playoffs.
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#57 Belsy91

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:08 PM

How does our team toughness compare against other teams? We don't compare..just look at the Bruins cup final series or the 1st round playoff exit last year for examples...unfortunately we havent had "team toughness" for quite some time...teams know they can take runs at our best players and pretty much get away with it. The worst end result for teams is a hug fest with Weise or another bottom 6 plug.
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#58 ButterBean

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:51 PM

We do have Jim Vandermeer in the Wolves right now. He would be more than happy to defend anyone of the Canucks if called up. The guys genuinely loves fighting, as he is one of the only guys with a smile on his face when going toe to toe with Lucic. He is a renowned tough guy.

I would hope that during the playoffs we call up Vandermeer to slot in.

If we have Vandermeer, Sestito, Weise, and Pinnizotto during the playoffs, I can almost guarantee that targeting the Sedins will go down. Add in Kassian, Bieksa, and Ballard who are all proven fighters, things don't look so bad.

Kesler isn't adverse to dropping the gloves either when healthy.

Another point that should be made is that Henrik isn't the same player he was two years ago. He doesn't flee confrontation and is throwing hits this season like a mofo.

The playoffs will be the telling tale for sure, but if MG wants to put us over the top, he could always go after Ryan Clowe. That would send a very clear message and in my opinion is the one move needed to ready us for the playoffs.

But who out of our tougher guys will actually see playing time with the Sedins? Maybe Kassian but if those other guys like Vandermeer and Sestito, etc. won't prevent anything from happening to the Sedins. All they can do it try and hit the other teams stars.
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#59 Duodenum

Duodenum

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:01 PM

Most people consider toughness to be a team's ability to give out cheap shots. If so, then yes, the Canucks are not a very tough team.
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