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Do we owe AV an apology?


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#91 Belsy91

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:00 AM

JACK from Jack in the box is a clown?!?! :shock:


He's sitting at the table isn't he?
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#92 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:08 AM

You of all people know that I give AV a lot of credit as a good coach. And making decisions like starting Schneider who is hot has made an impact so he deserves some of the credit for sure.

If I'm being honest I have to disagree with this. I find you give him credit when you have to but you're far to critical and throw far too much blame his direction.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on just how much credit that should be though given that some of the moves were pretty obvious and only seemed to be made when no other options were available. I might be wrong about that but as I said, we will see. If he changes things back to what was not working now that guys are coming back (especially Edler) you know it as not as much his coaching decisions as it was just necessity as there was really not much else he could do.

Timing can be everything. Starting Garrison on the top pp unit would have been a mistake. Ballards played better this year but putting him in a top 4 role would have been a mistake. Keeping Edler on the top PP unit was a mistake and imo keeping Schroeder up as long as he did was a mistake but it seems his timing was perfect on that. Has AV made mistakes? Sure has.

Edler should be on the 2nd PP unit for awhile imo. Not with Garrison on the 1st unit because they just do not seem to work well together as they struggle with who is going to be the shooter too much it seems which leads to hesitation and bad passes.

I agree...and you've already written this off as not happening because AV is so predictable.Maybe that is what's going to happen but if it doesn't I'd bet we hear less about it being a positive thing AV has done. I'm sorry man it's just gotten old for me and I'm kind of lashing out against it. I hardly post other places anymore because of it.
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#93 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:11 AM

DP

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 26 March 2013 - 02:24 AM.

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#94 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:26 AM

That pretty much sums up my stance. I think it is time for a coaching change and have for a few years now. That's just my opinion and I always respect people who disagree. It drives me nuts when both sides of the argument refuse to give credit/ criticism. AV deserves credit and he deserves criticism. It doesn't mean that you're not a fan because you point these things out. Everyone seems to take it so personally if someone has a different perspective on the matter.


That's just it. I'm fine with a coaching change. I always said I'd want an improvement but at this point a lateral move and bringing in a guy like Ruff would work as well. AV is a very good if not great coach. (does not read only in regular season) but sometimes a persons time in one place is up. Maybe his is and maybe it isn't. Not for me to decide but until that time I'll continue to be objective rather than reactive.
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#95 ilduce39

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:56 AM

What do people expect out of this team? From my perspective - we're built from the back out (at least salary wise). We have solid goaltending and quality defense. This is our strength and the reason we're still in the playoff hunt.

The fact that we have gone the year with only Hank and Lappy as proven NHL centers for the majority of the season is the reason we're not running away with the NW as usual.

I have no idea why people are piling onto AV when this is clearly above his head (an MG issue.)

For a team that says "we only care about the cup" we sure cry about the regular season.

I'll reserve judgement until after the playoffs, as usual.

Edit: While I don't think AV is the be-all and end-all of coaching, anyone who wants a head coach fired while maintaining a playoff spot and working with 75% of the available salary cap for a season is a fool.

Edited by ilduce39, 26 March 2013 - 03:02 AM.

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#96 ilduce39

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:06 AM

Analogy: I don't like Christy Clark and the Liberal government... but if an earthquake hit tomorrow I wouldn't be calling for her head.

I would be calling for her head if the province wasn't able to adequately able to respond to the emergency.

Condescending explanation: In light of the current Canucks roster, I don't blame Alain Vignault for the current injury, roster and subsequent production of the Canucks lineup this season.

I would be blaming him if the team was unable to cope and found itself out of a playoff spot.
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#97 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:26 AM

What do people expect out of this team? From my perspective - we're built from the back out (at least salary wise). We have solid goaltending and quality defense. This is our strength and the reason we're still in the playoff hunt.

The fact that we have gone the year with only Hank and Lappy as proven NHL centers for the majority of the season is the reason we're not running away with the NW as usual.

I have no idea why people are piling onto AV when this is clearly above his head (an MG issue.)

For a team that says "we only care about the cup" we sure cry about the regular season.

I'll reserve judgement until after the playoffs, as usual.

Edit: While I don't think AV is the be-all and end-all of coaching, anyone who wants a head coach fired while maintaining a playoff spot and working with 75% of the available salary cap for a season is a fool.


Actually, anyone who thinks doing the exact same thing over and over again expecting a different result is a fool.

If you have not judged AV based on past playoff performances I find it highly unlikely you will suddenly do so this year based on your other comments.

And honestly for such a strong and high paid defence it sure seems like playing a solid defensive game for a full 60 minutes seems to elude the Canucks an awful lot. That is a key component of their struggles this season. The D are expected to drive the offense and give up a ton of quality chances against doing so.
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#98 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:31 AM

Analogy: I don't like Christy Clark and the Liberal government... but if an earthquake hit tomorrow I wouldn't be calling for her head.

I would be calling for her head if the province wasn't able to adequately able to respond to the emergency.

Condescending explanation: In light of the current Canucks roster, I don't blame Alain Vignault for the current injury, roster and subsequent production of the Canucks lineup this season.

I would be blaming him if the team was unable to cope and found itself out of a playoff spot.


Your analogy is flawed though.

You are suggesting that the Canucks poor play this season is completely random (which an earthquake is in relation to anyone doing anything to cause it) and has absolutely nothing at all to do with the coaching staff. Right off the bat you are coming from a position that is 100% false. Coaching decisions good or bad impact the results on the ice even if people disagree as to how much of an impact it has.

So you don't believe that this team would be in real trouble in the standings if Calgary, Edmonton, and Colorado were even above average teams? I beg to differ.
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#99 ilduce39

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:52 AM

Your analogy is flawed though.

You are suggesting that the Canucks poor play this season is completely random (which an earthquake is in relation to anyone doing anything to cause it) and has absolutely nothing at all to do with the coaching staff. Right off the bat you are coming from a position that is 100% false. Coaching decisions good or bad impact the results on the ice even if people disagree as to how much of an impact it has.

So you don't believe that this team would be in real trouble in the standings if Calgary, Edmonton, and Colorado were even above average teams? I beg to differ.


No. I am saying the Canucks poor play this season is due to circumstances uncontrollable by the coach - IE 25% of the salary cap being invested in players unable to be on the ice for most of the season. ( either goalie, booth, kesler, malhotra, ballard)

Actually, anyone who thinks doing the exact same thing over and over again expecting a different result is a fool.

If you have not judged AV based on past playoff performances I find it highly unlikely you will suddenly do so this year based on your other comments.

And honestly for such a strong and high paid defence it sure seems like playing a solid defensive game for a full 60 minutes seems to elude the Canucks an awful lot. That is a key component of their struggles this season. The D are expected to drive the offense and give up a ton of quality chances against doing so.


"doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a fool" - the coach is but one variable in a multitude. With players, being the most numerous... an also unpredictable as they grow and change from year to year. Unfortunately, sports are not an exact science. Our current coach, however, has proven capable of coming oh-so-close to winning the Stanley Cup on top of two Presidents Trophy seasons.

Ask yourself - has a team with a roster akin to ours this season (IE without Kesler) ever won a cup? I would think not.
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#100 Gman

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:38 AM

Y'all ignorant fools have cost this team ten times more games putting all your negativity out there than Vigneault has since he was hired. He's an excellent coach who understands the value of defence and individual responsibility. How many people are there with their ropes tied to the back of the Canucks' bandwagon, digging their heels in, pulling with all their might to hold this team back, claiming to be fans? Refusing to root for the team properly until the coach is fired, or the goalie is traded, or this or that player is switched to this or that line, or the GM says what they themselves are thinking? Sack up and root for your team, or find one that you want to root for.

There is a black cloud hanging over this franchise, a poisonous atmosphere, ever since we lost the Finals. That should have been counted a success but fools have let it fester and rot, and defined it as a failure when it was our greatest achievement in almost two decades. We need to lance this boil, scour it and cauterize it before the rot gets any deeper and gets into any truly essential systems...we have been lucky so far, but it's time to be smart as well. When a successful team's own fans are actively rooting against it, the hockey gods will only tolerate that for so long. The end of last season is a taste of what we will all get for a main course, if y'all don't recognize your wrongs and repent what you're doing.


Right, I'm ignorant and not a real fan because I don't share your opinion of the coach. Perhaps you should look up the meaning of the word ignorant...
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#101 klosetotheheart

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:52 AM

wow people on this forum are so dumb, anyone who blames AV clearly has little to no grasp of reality let alone hockey..

you understand that we are 4th in the West ahead of LA, STL, DET etc. and have the most depleted roster in the league.

Not to mention the millions tied up in a back up goalie that all other coaches in the league have helping their roster in the form of a skater..

To all the people blaming AV in this thread, your position is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent responses were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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#102 Ride the red Pony

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:52 AM

That's just it. I'm fine with a coaching change. I always said I'd want an improvement but at this point a lateral move and bringing in a guy like Ruff would work as well. AV is a very good if not great coach. (does not read only in regular season) but sometimes a persons time in one place is up. Maybe his is and maybe it isn't. Not for me to decide but until that time I'll continue to be objective rather than reactive.


Is it a lateral move? I guess that remains to be seen, and I guess could be viewed as "your" opinion, as none of us can see the future.
For those of you who can't see that AV isn't getting full return from the players, I guess I must be watching a different team.
Do you think that if AV goes that he will magically take the talent with him? This is a professional hockey franchise that went to game 7 of the SCF a few years ago, do you believe AV was the only reason they were there? I think you are selling the team short if you believe that AV is the glue holding the franchise together, unfortunately his system is not working with the players he has now and needs a change, not only for the team, but AV as well.
AV had a good run, but it is time to move on, I also believe the same could be said about Barry Trotz(Nashville will not win a cup with this guy), Lindy Ruff, too long a run without reaching the ultimate result.
Again, AV had a nice run, tried to get back but has failed to do so, time to move on.


Apology? Nah

Edited by Ride the red Pony, 26 March 2013 - 06:54 AM.

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#103 TheTruthHurts

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:04 AM

fan


noun
an enthusiastic devotee, follower, or admirer of a sport, pastime, celebrity, etc.: a baseball fan; a great fan of Charlie Chaplin.

by dictionary.com

By definition, many many many people on this forum are neither a fan of the canucks(from what I read) nor hockey(again from what I read).
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#104 Ride the red Pony

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:08 AM

fan


noun
an enthusiastic devotee, follower, or admirer of a sport, pastime, celebrity, etc.: a baseball fan; a great fan of Charlie Chaplin.

by dictionary.com

By definition, many many many people on this forum are neither a fan of the canucks(from what I read) nor hockey(again from what I read).


Could you do some follow up on this statement, just for clarification?
Vague comment in my estimation. Not sure where you are going with this.
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#105 lolwut?

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:06 AM

That pretty much sums up my stance. I think it is time for a coaching change and have for a few years now. That's just my opinion and I always respect people who disagree. It drives me nuts when both sides of the argument refuse to give credit/ criticism. AV deserves credit and he deserves criticism. It doesn't mean that you're not a fan because you point these things out. Everyone seems to take it so personally if someone has a different perspective on the matter.


Agree with this.. you put these thoughts out better than I did in my earllier posts.
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#106 cc_devil

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:10 AM

Lmao! An apology not likely.
AV needs to go and has needed to be gone for years.
He's already admitted he leaves it up to the team, wake up. They coach themselves and that's why he sticks rookies on 4th lines period.
The win streak is due to a hot goalie as usual. The line he's gone with is what many have been calling for.
Any arm chair Canuck fan could of picked that lineup and would have had JS on the second line all along.Not just because your out of veteran options.
He just relies on veterans and hot goalies to save his bacon and why he allows them so much rope. They win with their talent alone and why when they struggle he loses because he lost.

Edited by cc_devil, 26 March 2013 - 08:13 AM.

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#107 lolwut?

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:18 AM

fan


noun
an enthusiastic devotee, follower, or admirer of a sport, pastime, celebrity, etc.: a baseball fan; a great fan of Charlie Chaplin.

by dictionary.com

By definition, many many many people on this forum are neither a fan of the canucks(from what I read) nor hockey(again from what I read).


Are you serious? Man o man.. way to paint the canucks fanbase with a single broad stroke.. if you really see things this monochromatically then thats a real shame. Either that or youre just posting bs that you dont even believe for effect.. not sure what that effect could be, since all it tells me is that (again assuming you actually believe that) youre very shortsighted.

There are many types of fans and they celebrate and criticize their team in their own ways.. really hope youre not actually this obtuse in real life.
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#108 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:39 AM

Is it a lateral move? I guess that remains to be seen, and I guess could be viewed as "your" opinion, as none of us can see the future.

I would say given everything we know about those two coaches that yes it is a lateral move. What has Ruff done to show you that it isn't a lateral move. Of course it's my opinion but I do try to base that opinion on the information rather than the emotion.

For those of you who can't see that AV isn't getting full return from the players, I guess I must be watching a different team.
Do you think that if AV goes that he will magically take the talent with him? This is a professional hockey franchise that went to game 7 of the SCF a few years ago, do you believe AV was the only reason they were there? I think you are selling the team short if you believe that AV is the glue holding the franchise together, unfortunately his system is not working with the players he has now and needs a change, not only for the team, but AV as well.

No there are lots of reasons they were there; coaching decisions being only one of those reasons. Did Ruff get the most out of his players? I mean not every coach is going to be Scotty Bowman who was just lights out amazing.

AV had a good run, but it is time to move on, I also believe the same could be said about Barry Trotz(Nashville will not win a cup with this guy), Lindy Ruff, too long a run without reaching the ultimate result.
Again, AV had a nice run, tried to get back but has failed to do so, time to move on.


Apology? Nah


I can get behind this absolutely. I can get behind it without having to trash a guy and put the entire weight of the teams failures on him and none of their successes day in and day out. The only thing I disagree with is Trotz. Seeing what he's done with little talent and then seeing the exponential growth that team took when they started spending money was largely in part to the system he's put in place. Trotz is a guy who I don't feel has worn out any welcome in Nashville yet. We've seen year after the predators perform over their abilities on the ice. Look at Lindback; guy looked like a superstar on that team. Now he barely looks like Tampa Bays version of Dan Cloutier pretending to be a starter.

As far as the apology...it wouldn't mean anything anyway really. The idea here is being passionate about ones team. Sometimes that might mean blindly following or unfairly criticizing that team. The trick is to find the middle ground but both of those come with being a fan. No apology needed...as soon as we lose a game or two it will just go right back. AV is a guy who does not get enough credit for this team; but that doesn't mean he can't be or shouldn't be replaced.

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 26 March 2013 - 08:43 AM.

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#109 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:46 AM

Lmao! An apology not likely.
AV needs to go and has needed to be gone for years.
He's already admitted he leaves it up to the team, wake up. They coach themselves and that's why he sticks rookies on 4th lines period.
The win streak is due to a hot goalie as usual. The line he's gone with is what many have been calling for.
Any arm chair Canuck fan could of picked that lineup and would have had JS on the second line all along.Not just because your out of veteran options.
He just relies on veterans and hot goalies to save his bacon and why he allows them so much rope. They win with their talent alone and why when they struggle he loses because he lost.


So any arm chair GM would have totally f'ed over Schroeder? Why when what AV did worked so well for the kid?

Thank you though for a perfect example to my previous post about AV not getting any credit. This is a perfect illustration of everything I had said.
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#110 SNACanuck

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:59 AM

He may be a good coach. But what's the point of winning the battles but losing the war year after year. Without a Cup we are essentially losing the war. Our guys will get ground down and eventually demoralized that we have nothing more than a bunch of trophy's to show for year after year of struggle...
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#111 TimberWolf

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:07 AM

Y'all ignorant fools have cost this team ten times more games putting all your negativity out there than Vigneault has since he was hired. He's an excellent coach who understands the value of defence and individual responsibility. How many people are there with their ropes tied to the back of the Canucks' bandwagon, digging their heels in, pulling with all their might to hold this team back, claiming to be fans? Refusing to root for the team properly until the coach is fired, or the goalie is traded, or this or that player is switched to this or that line, or the GM says what they themselves are thinking? Sack up and root for your team, or find one that you want to root for.

There is a black cloud hanging over this franchise, a poisonous atmosphere, ever since we lost the Finals. That should have been counted a success but fools have let it fester and rot, and defined it as a failure when it was our greatest achievement in almost two decades. We need to lance this boil, scour it and cauterize it before the rot gets any deeper and gets into any truly essential systems...we have been lucky so far, but it's time to be smart as well. When a successful team's own fans are actively rooting against it, the hockey gods will only tolerate that for so long. The end of last season is a taste of what we will all get for a main course, if y'all don't recognize your wrongs and repent what you're doing.


Dramatic.

So anyone that disagrees with you is a terrible fan then? As for this energy thing? Well Tampa and Carolina won with NO FANS let alone positive or negative. It's not voodoo, chi or bandwagons. It's good players, coaching, goals, defense and goaltending and maybe a good bounce or two.

Right now we it looks to me that we have a coach that is trying to inch us back into a trap system. All his wins do not make that unforgivable to me.
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#112 WiseOne

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:11 AM

The Canucks are improving despite having some major holes. Schneider is getting into his groove which helps.

The playoffs will be the judge. If we can't make it past the first round I am guessing AV is done.

I don't think anyone owes AV an apology, unless they have said something personal about him.
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#113 Guest_Pinchin_*

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:18 AM

AV gets no apology. Why on earth would I apologize???? I don't like him, I've never called his abilities into question and nothing has changed except we won 4 freakin' games. PLAN THE PARADE!!!!!! I hope you realize even the best coaches have to move on at some point...did Scotty Bowman coach the same team for his entire career? AV is a tremendous hockey talent, but he has also had an identity crisis this season and is settling into a trap mentality. You watch tonight against Columbus, it will be a trap game. I don't want AV fired, I just want him to sweat a little and realize he has to continue to grow as a coach or he will be coaching a different team...in the NHL no doubt. And give our young talent better looks please...
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#114 Quoted

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:20 AM

A short streak of losses doesn't equate to a firing, same the other way around: short streak of wins doesn't equate to a turnaround. Jury is still out of AV I think, but until something goes sideways for a longer stretch, he record is still very successful.
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#115 DooBie604

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:20 AM

Let's be honest here, the people on this board choose to hate on someone and you will never change their opinion. The have favorites and the have people they hate who could never do any right. When we lose, it's that persons fault, when we win it's in spite of that person. From MG to AV to Loungo to Edler, everyone has their own scapegoat and refuse to recognize when they do anything right. Look at how well Raymond is playing and there are still people who complain about him because of how he played last year.

AV is a good coach despite what some people on here say. He makes mistakes like everyone else but so does every single coach in the league. The coaches and players are human but we expect them to be gods. Perfection is the only way to get satisfaction from most our fanbase and even then someone will still try to find fault. Even if we went on a win streak like the Penguins, you will still find people complaining about how the coach did stupid stuff and how the poster could have made better choices. AV doesn't always make the best decisions but I don't think he is as bad as this board makes him out to be.
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#116 Alex the Great

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:01 AM

We owe the entire team an apology.
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#117 Vansicle

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:22 AM

Av did nothing. The players stepped up. These threads are dumb.

Well said.
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Snake Doctor, on 23 May 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:snapback.png

Miller is not on our list. It's Lack as our #1. There is no reason we would have traded both Schnieder and Luongo if we never intended to give Lack the #1 starting job.  Furthermore, the salary and term Miller is looking for is not in our favor.

 


#118 pimpcurtly

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:27 AM

Dramatic.

So anyone that disagrees with you is a terrible fan then? As for this energy thing? Well Tampa and Carolina won with NO FANS let alone positive or negative. It's not voodoo, chi or bandwagons. It's good players, coaching, goals, defense and goaltending and maybe a good bounce or two.

Right now we it looks to me that we have a coach that is trying to inch us back into a trap system. All his wins do not make that unforgivable to me.


I completely agree with him on the energy thing. Our team is under a constant microscope with relentless scrutiny over any mistake they make. Imagine playing in that type of atmosphere as opposed to a Tampa or Carolina. This market needs to relax a little and not take this team/game so seriously. But I just don't see that happening anytime soon.

And I happen to believe, in this day and age, that playoffs are a craps shoot. You gotta get hot at the right time and you gotta get a lot of luck. I know all the AV detractors hate to hear this but there really arn't any bad teams ESPECIALLY once you get into the playoffs. That's just the way it is now...dynasty days are over.

Edited by pimpcurtly, 26 March 2013 - 10:28 AM.

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#119 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:11 AM

Schneider steals a few games and all of a sudden AV is a god

jesus christ CDC



And before, when he and Luongo were playing below average, AV was an idiot who deserved to be fired...

The goalie is part of the team and when you consider that we're playing two of them "starter" money, there should be an expectation of them making a difference in the win/loss column, just as a guy like Crosby does for Dan Bylsma.

Edited by RUPERTKBD, 26 March 2013 - 11:12 AM.

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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#120 oldnews

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:20 AM

Ummm.... so what? No one cares about that trophy at all......there is only one that matters and you need a great playoff coach to get it.


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