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Do we owe AV an apology?


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#121 Vansicle

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:21 AM

*
POPULAR

-AV is a good coach.
-The players on this team are also very good.
-Sometimes good players play bad.
-Sometimes good coaches coach poorly.
-Bad coaches still win games.
-Bad players still win games.
-Neither AV nor the players are any more responsible for a win streak than they are for a losing record.
-Changing players around could be the impetus for a vast improvement in the teams record.
-Changing the coach could do the same thing.
-An apology is not owed from anyone whose position has been consistent for a reasonable amount of time, unless you support your argument with "AV only chews gum LOL :picard: " or "AV haters are dum :picard: :towel: ", and in these two cases, apologies are owed from the parents and teachers of said offenders.
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Snake Doctor, on 23 May 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:snapback.png

Miller is not on our list. It's Lack as our #1. There is no reason we would have traded both Schnieder and Luongo if we never intended to give Lack the #1 starting job.  Furthermore, the salary and term Miller is looking for is not in our favor.

 


#122 oldnews

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:27 AM

The only way he holds that trophy is because Luo stood on his head DESPITE AV's lack of ability ..


m k.

Who is truly a good coach then?

Uh, Babcock only won Cups because of Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, etc.
Bylsma won the Jack Adams because of Malkin, Crosby, Staal, Letang, etc
Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
'But anyone could win with Roberto'....
whateva
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#123 Vansicle

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:28 AM

As far as the apology...it wouldn't mean anything anyway really. The idea here is being passionate about ones team. Sometimes that might mean blindly following or unfairly criticizing that team. The trick is to find the middle ground but both of those come with being a fan. No apology needed...as soon as we lose a game or two it will just go right back. AV is a guy who does not get enough credit for this team; but that doesn't mean he can't be or shouldn't be replaced.

This, right here.
EOM, you're tops and you teach me new things every day.
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Snake Doctor, on 23 May 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:snapback.png

Miller is not on our list. It's Lack as our #1. There is no reason we would have traded both Schnieder and Luongo if we never intended to give Lack the #1 starting job.  Furthermore, the salary and term Miller is looking for is not in our favor.

 


#124 oldnews

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:29 AM

apologies are owed from the parents and teachers of said offenders.


:excl:
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#125 Aladeen

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:33 AM

m k.

Who is truly a good coach then?

Uh, Babcock only won Cups because of Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, etc.
Bylsma won the Jack Adams because of Malkin, Crosby, Staal, Letang, etc
Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
'But anyone could win with Roberto'....
whateva

Booyah!
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#126 pimpcurtly

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:53 AM

m k.

Who is truly a good coach then?

Uh, Babcock only won Cups because of Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, etc.
Bylsma won the Jack Adams because of Malkin, Crosby, Staal, Letang, etc
Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
'But anyone could win with Roberto'....
whateva


Whoa whoa whoa now...no making sense on CDC...mmmkay. ;)
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#127 debluvscanucks

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:13 PM

I don't.

I've never slagged him, if only, because I like a laid back approach. Some coaches are very "in your face", yell/stress/etc. I don't believe you get positive out of negative behaviour. Sure, they're grown men and you don't have to coddle the players, but I really feel that in order to get people to perform you treat them with respect and allow them to work through issues. When players aren't performing well, they already know that...they don't need someone to point it out to them (for the most part). What they do need is direction and ideas in how to turn things around.

I believe AV has just the right amount of "grip" on the boys....when you have a core of players in place that's been around and together for awhile, they usually know what needs to be done. Just support them in that and guide them if necessary.

People don't know all the in's/out's of the Ballard situation, etc. It isn't always revealed if players aren't 100%, etc., so there is always possibility of reasons beyond what we see from the outside.

Haven't read the thread (yet)...will do so now. But, based on the title, this is how I feel. Go AV.
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#128 debluvscanucks

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:42 PM

-AV is a good coach.
-The players on this team are also very good.
-Sometimes good players play bad.
-Sometimes good coaches coach poorly.
-Bad coaches still win games.
-Bad players still win games.
-Neither AV nor the players are any more responsible for a win streak than they are for a losing record.
-Changing players around could be the impetus for a vast improvement in the teams record. (or, it could completely disrupt the chemistry that comes with familiarity and take us from being a team that has a pretty good shot and is in the thick of things in the recent past to a team that isn't...our record hasn't been a problem, our playoff performances have been....but I attribute MUCH of that to injuries and being shellshocked by piss poor officiating. I believe they're learning to adjust to this and will adapt accordingly)
-Changing the coach could do the same thing. again - "could", or could have a negative impact
-An apology is not owed from anyone whose position has been consistent for a reasonable amount of time, unless you support your argument with "AV only chews gum LOL :picard: " or "AV haters are dum :picard: :towel: ", and in these two cases, apologies are owed from the parents and teachers of said offenders.


In doing so (having time to read some of the comments), I've added something that you've overlooked. :) What we do know is that this team/coach is capable of coming very close to winning it all. What we don't is how someone else may fare in that if brought in. How they'll adjust/fit in, etc. So do we go with the unknown, to try to improve on something that's a proven formula for at least some success? Or do we stick with it and hope that the valuable experience of a team that's been through this (together) before will allow for tweaks and adjustments that may just put them over the edge?

We know team toughness in the playoffs has been an issue.

We know the officiating has been awful and inconsistent.

I say we go with what we know and who we have and learn to push back, as has been the case (to some degree). Dish it out as well as take it.

Saw Kadri go at Chara with a good hit last night...didn't care that it was the 9 foot beast...he played him hard despite this. Our guys need to do this...go down swinging (basically).

Sure, a SC win would be awesome but it would be so much sweeter with the guys who have been trying to get us there.

Well said however.

-Homer Deb
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#129 apollo

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:48 PM

I'm on record as saying:

If AV wins a cup with Vancouver, I will declare him the greatest Canucks coach ever.

I still stand by that statement. Until then I say he's a good coach, not a great coach.


If anyone wins a cup with Vancouver he'll be declared the greatest Vancouver coach ever.
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#130 TheCammer

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:03 PM

said it before and il say it again .. hes the best coach for the circumstance we are in this year .. he just doesnt do as well with a high offence team ,, he can grind and eak out low scoring wins like he did the first year .. give him talent and he doesnt change from that style ..

Yes this is why we were the top offensive team in the league 2 years ago, #2 the year prior to that and top 5 last year. Check the facts before you say crap like this.

This whole notion that he doesn't have a capability to coach a successful offence is crap.
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#131 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:17 PM

I think it is time for a coaching change and have for a few years now.


I've seen this a fair amount around the boards and I just have to point out that this would include the time that the Canucks came to within a game of the ultimate goal.

Had the coach been let go immediately after coming that close, with half of his roster either out or playing injured, the Canucks would have been the absolute laughingstock of the professional sporting world.

If you can't give Vigneualt any credit for taking the team that far, then you truly are a hater and no amount of facts or common sense is going to make a bit of difference.
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#132 GrooveC

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:34 PM

AV owes us an apology!

1- not playing Hodgsen enough to keep him interested in staying here, plus slaming him about pain threshol

Hasn't the "Hodgsen" topic been covered already, the lil' prima donna wanted to be played somewhere between or above Sedins and Kesler and that was not going to happen. Nothing AV could do about Cody wanting royal ice time that was not available.

2-playing Schroeder and other offensive youngsters on the 4th line

Please read the above sentence: "playing Schroeder and other AHL bubble youngsters on the 4th line"

3-Garrison not on pwrplay til 20 + games

I think AV was waiting for Garrison to hone is signature slap shot to the point that it actually hit the net more than 0.02% of the time.

4-giving Edler all the minutes inspite of his miscues

Letting your top players play through a slump... Lets take the top 20 best coaches in NHL history and see what percent of them do not employ the "play through it" tactic.

5-having a pwrplay that in the last three yrs is sinking like a led zepplin

Having a powerplay that struck fear into the very heart of the opposition two seasons ago, was okay last season and, yes, has tanked this season. If this seasons crap PP is AV's fault than the killer PP of two seasons ago was his doing too.

Also, when someone mentions that someone or something is falling like a led zeppelin than they should be wary of the comeback being an untitled 4th album of pure platinum hits (or it's metaphorical equivalent).

I could go on, but what's the point, he wins and that's the bottom line, is it not?


All these fans that crap on Lu even though he is the best goalie we've ever had. All these fans who crap on AV although he is probably the best coach we've ever had...

Half the time AV is perfect all the time! :emot-parrot:

Go Canucks!
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#133 Hairy Kneel

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:58 PM

AV's ego has already accepted your apologies and now wants you to get him a sandwich..
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#134 LeanBeef

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:01 PM

When he actually outcoaches someone in the playoffs, yes.
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#135 Barry_Wilkins

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:02 PM

For a team that says "we only care about the cup" we sure cry about the regular season.


Yep.
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#136 Tystick

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:06 PM

AV is doing fine.
People on this board complaining about him all the time need to stfu
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#137 TheTruthHurts

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:15 PM

Well, you go and apologize to him on our behalfs and see what his response is. I'm waiting.
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#138 canuck73_3

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:22 PM

When he actually outcoaches someone in the playoffs, yes.


Tell me more about how he got outcoached, please I'd love to hear it.
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credit to canuckforever00 for the sig :)

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#139 derr12

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:27 PM

Pfft no. Hows our power play been for the last year? We've been struggleing with coaching type problems since the boston game last year. Guy needs to grow a pair with players that are underachieving too. Get caught puck watching again kb3 or edler? Guess what, you get to bag skate and get 12 mins next game while ballard/tanev move up to 2nd pair.


Goalies have been keeping this team afloat for too long. AV needs to go.
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#140 canuck73_3

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:36 PM

Pfft no. Hows our power play been for the last year? We've been struggleing with coaching type problems since the boston game last year. Guy needs to grow a pair with players that are underachieving too. Get caught puck watching again kb3 or edler? Guess what, you get to bag skate and get 12 mins next game while ballard/tanev move up to 2nd pair.


Goalies have been keeping this team afloat for too long. AV needs to go.


Goalies keeping a team afloat for too long on a team that has been in the top 5 or so in the league in scoring for 3 of the last 4 seasons and Top 10 5 years ago?

Might want to think about your evaluation there champ.

Besides I thought it was goaltendings fault we failed in the playoffs?

I can't keep up with the flip floppers here.
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credit to canuckforever00 for the sig :)

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#141 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:40 PM

Now if you had managed to get Ballard into your line up; we could have offered all praise to Gillis for a line up any coach could win with.

:blush:

As is, your probably right to give all credit to AV! :towel:

A lot of us have been calling for AV's head the last few weeks, but considering the roster we've iced for the last few games, i'm mighty impressed that we've pulled this latest streak together (although that does come with stellar play by Schneids.)

But considering we've taken the Northwest division back with this roster, it's quite impressive.

Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Chris Higgins
Mason Raymond - Jordan Schroeder - Jannik Hansen
Andrew Gordon - Maxim Lapierre - Tom Sestito
Andrew Ebbett - Alex Burrows

Kevin Bieksa - Andrew Alberts
Dan Hamhuis - Jason Garrison
Chris Tanev - Cam Barker

And to those of us who thought AV may have lost the room, the team has adapted well to AV's readjustment to their game (the *%*%ing dump/change and grinding style, which is boring but in this case it's paying off). Not only that, should we also give AV credit for placing Hansen in a situation where he's having a breakout year this year?

I've been on the 'fire AV' bandwagon for a while, but I'll admit I've been impressed by this stretch of games the past two weeks.

For now at least, I'll bite my tongue and say I was wrong about AV. But I just don't know if we can go all the way with him.


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#142 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:47 PM

So will you start giving him credit for doing those things now?

Schroeder played himself onto the 4th line before and then played himself onto the wolves. He got another chance and has played excellent since coming back. Unless you feel his play is the same as it was before. He's looked better for the entire time he's been back up. If you're going to be critical you also have to give credit.


It doesnt make any sense to give him credit for making intelligent decisions when it takes him months to make them. That in itself isnt very intelligent at all.

Thats pretty much the main reason I think he should be replaced. It hurts the team.
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#143 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:00 PM

Y'all ignorant fools have cost this team ten times more games putting all your negativity out there than Vigneault has since he was hired. He's an excellent coach who understands the value of defence and individual responsibility. How many people are there with their ropes tied to the back of the Canucks' bandwagon, digging their heels in, pulling with all their might to hold this team back, claiming to be fans? Refusing to root for the team properly until the coach is fired, or the goalie is traded, or this or that player is switched to this or that line, or the GM says what they themselves are thinking? Sack up and root for your team, or find one that you want to root for.

There is a black cloud hanging over this franchise, a poisonous atmosphere, ever since we lost the Finals. That should have been counted a success but fools have let it fester and rot, and defined it as a failure when it was our greatest achievement in almost two decades. We need to lance this boil, scour it and cauterize it before the rot gets any deeper and gets into any truly essential systems...we have been lucky so far, but it's time to be smart as well. When a successful team's own fans are actively rooting against it, the hockey gods will only tolerate that for so long. The end of last season is a taste of what we will all get for a main course, if y'all don't recognize your wrongs and repent what you're doing.


We both want the team to be successful. I happen to think the team would be more successful if AV was replaced. I have no idea about all this other stuff youre talking about.
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#144 1970 and beyond

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:04 PM

Apology...................for what?????
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Been a fan from day one. Some of those days were good and some were bad.

#145 Gman

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:35 PM

While I can appreciate some of the more intelligent conversation within this thread from people on both sides of the arguement I need to point out the following. Those of us who happen to have lost faith in AV and think it is time for him to go have been subjected to the following personal attacks and slagging, we:
  • are whining
  • are freakazoids
  • are schizo
  • are reactionary
  • guilty of mindless criticism
  • don't have awareness
  • don't have decent sense
  • just lash out at the first person that comes to mind
  • just want to bash somebody
  • aren't real fans at all
  • have zero patience
  • have the memory of a goldfish
  • are fickle
  • are often quite stupid
  • are ignorant fools
  • have cost the team
  • are holding the team back
  • are rooting against the team
  • we need to recognize our wrongs
  • should repent
  • are nitpicking
  • are "so called fans"
  • are ungrateful
  • are fools
  • are dumb
  • have little to no grasp of reality let alone hockey
  • are insanely idiotic
  • are all guilty of rambling incoherent responses
  • don't have close to anything considered a rational thought
  • need to stfu

Really? We're the ones that need to check ourselves? The hypocrisy has never been so thick.

Progress is made by those willing to push forward and challenge the status quo not by those whom simply choose to accept things as they are.
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#146 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:54 PM

No. I am saying the Canucks poor play this season is due to circumstances uncontrollable by the coach - IE 25% of the salary cap being invested in players unable to be on the ice for most of the season. ( either goalie, booth, kesler, malhotra, ballard)



"doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a fool" - the coach is but one variable in a multitude. With players, being the most numerous... an also unpredictable as they grow and change from year to year. Unfortunately, sports are not an exact science. Our current coach, however, has proven capable of coming oh-so-close to winning the Stanley Cup on top of two Presidents Trophy seasons.

Ask yourself - has a team with a roster akin to ours this season (IE without Kesler) ever won a cup? I would think not.


For your first part, Paul MacLean and the Senators say hi. Their personnel losses are easily much worse than the Canucks losing Kesler and a bunch of guys AV doesn't use a lot anyway. The best coaches make the absolute most of what they have. Which a guy like MacLean has done. Has AV? I would say not at all. He has guys sitting in the press box or not getting PP time even when the team is playing like absolute crap. So he is relying on his tired approach rather than try anything new unlike a guy like MacLean.

Actually, winning in hockey is not as random as you suggest at all. And before anyone can suggest AV is anything because of the run to the finals (through a hard working but much less talented Nashville team and a weak San Jose team) it should be noted that the Canucks were one Luongo save away from being eliminated in the 1st round after being up 3-0. Getting outcoached was a pretty significant part of that.
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#147 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:04 PM

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What makes you think he is not a great playoff coach? He got the absolute most from everyone on his roster and got them believing they were all part of any success they achieved - if you believe what Bruins players said after they won the cup of course.

He adjusted lines, matchups, and strategies based on what the opposition was doing. He did so very quickly instead of slipping back into the comfort of familiarity and trust in only certain players like AV did. He saw what would get the Canucks off their game and he exploited it. AV did not do the same thing and lacks that killer instinct as a playoff coach at times. He certainly did against the Bruins.

The guy is a total douche and I hate him but he did exactly what great playoff coaches do.
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#148 Kryten

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:58 PM

-AV is a good coach.
-The players on this team are also very good.
-Sometimes good players play bad.
-Sometimes good coaches coach poorly.
-Bad coaches still win games.
-Bad players still win games.
-Neither AV nor the players are any more responsible for a win streak than they are for a losing record.
-Changing players around could be the impetus for a vast improvement in the teams record.
-Changing the coach could do the same thing.
-An apology is not owed from anyone whose position has been consistent for a reasonable amount of time, unless you support your argument with "AV only chews gum LOL :picard: " or "AV haters are dum :picard: :towel: ", and in these two cases, apologies are owed from the parents and teachers of said offenders.


Well said sir. I will steal a phrase from Stevie Y and say that this team needs a change in culture. Regular season play is fine and all but until this team shows some playoff gumption with a playoff prepared coach, I will hold onto any apology intended for AV.
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#149 Gman

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:29 PM

unless you support your argument with "AV only chews gum LOL :picard: "


Couldn't help myself. :bigblush:

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#150 NightHawkSniper

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:05 PM

AV owes Ballard an apology for sure.
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