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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 7.0


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#1051 Boudrias

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:07 PM

I agree, but it wasn't those posts that got him banned. He had just as many moments of complete trolling as he did good points.

How about he is holidaying in Maui?
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#1052 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:18 PM

Going backwards to forwards; i'll try and respond then draw a conclusion alrady reflected in other posts (which were not direct responses to you Elvis).

3) Luongo's contract is onerous because he is being paid to be a superstar. He has been a very good goaie, but been outplayed by opposing goalies over the past 4 year playoff losses, and Schneider now. He has not lived up to a $64 mill deal, simple.

2) I believe MG foresaw a cup window. Lou was a Vezina finalist in 2007, all star calaibre in 09, Schneids was unproven. So he played his big card signing Lou. I'm quite sure MG, and ownership, did the deal believing it would get a cup, maybe 2? You might think it was a signal or a message to UFA's, that's an opinion. Fans get caught up in that, but I disagree. He was signed to outplay the Tim Thomas's of the world, not recruit guys like Malhotra to sign UFA deals. It may help, but only until you get outplayed by Tim Thomas.

Signing deals to send a message? To me thats like being a big shot at the casino (see Bruce McNall) to prove you legit. Signings should be done as the right investment in the right piece of your puzzle. When you get it right it sends a message, but thats secondary.

And when your wrong; you have to cut your losses, that's Lou. The Predator's? I'll grant Nashville prob wanted to send their fans a message they were not packing up. But I also debate they could leveraged the $20 mill plus they paid (and first round picks received as compensation) in the last 10 months into a better team. That would have been a better message. Just my view.

1) If Nashville's hand is forced due to money, odd's are they have already blown it. Yup, they will still get a good haul for Weber. But they will never get back the signing bonuses and salary they have paid him. How much of this year $13 mill bonus did they have to pay (honest question)? Lets see how long it will take to parlay him back in to a top team?

Which brings us back to Lou, our issue. Weber is a bad comparison, at least he is still playing like a Norris candidate. Lou looked at the start of the year like he would outplay Schneider, and all he faced. If we get back to that, the trade will come around. I was hoping he would get the start in Calgary?

If he does not, our investment will continue to slide...


Ah, but the reasons they might have to be moved are extraneous to the discussion. Nashville's hand might be forced just as much as ours, just due to money versus a cheaper, younger replacement.

It's about them both being high value, back diving contracts, and if one (particularly the one costing considerably more right now) can still get a good if not pretty good/great return while the other isn't worth more than a couple of picks then it's a sign that it's not the contract that's truly the issue.


My original point opened up a little different avenue of discussion than I intended, but that's definitely an added wrinkle to my point that I agree with. The Canucks signing Luongo as they did was a bit of a signal, to Luongo and prospective UFAs, just as much as Nashville matching was a signal to their fans and team they were serious about building a winner.

Vancouver's seeing the results of it now - partly because of the bad timing with the new CBA and the cap crunch - but with any of the other back diving contract it has the same possibility. It brings me back to my original point: why is Luongo's contract perceived as being so onerous?


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#1053 smurf47

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:22 PM

He's right about this.

Although he is wrong about the rest.

Luongo goes, Schneider stays. The Bridge has been walked across and burned 101, there is no way of crossing the river and going back now.

Now 101 is blaming coaching for Luongo's woes!!!! Melanson had Lou modify his game in 2010-11 and Lou had his lowest GAA of 2.11 but Lou did not follow the program in the playoffs and was inconsistent. Lou had a regression last season by using his old style and Schneider bypassed him. During the lockout, Lou worked with Allaire his earlier coach and started the season playing great. He is not playing that system now and his stats have plummeted. Lou is responsible for his own demise because he cannot seem to incorporate change into his game. He is now a mediocre NHL goalie on most nights and his SP of .904 is 34th in the league which added to his huge contract and age has made him untradeable There is no magic bullet for Lou he just needs to fix whats broke and use it in every game. Not more playing time, a happier Lou or mental attitude or coaching is going to fix his game. He only needs to use the tools hes been given, otherwise, its hopeless and he will never regain his form
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#1054 canucksnihilist

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:32 PM

If Lu had outplayed Schneider this year...

Problem is really that after his groin injury, he was never really the same player.

Give me the Luongo during his Panther days, and early here (before groin injury) over Schneider, no problem. Would NEVER have melted down in any playoff series, PERIOD. And over Tim Thomas - he could basically out-play anybody. He was one of the best in the world - probably THE best when on his game (haven't heard that for a while have we ;)) Anyways, "that" Luongo deserved the contract he got, and would have no problem living up to it.

Post-injury: He is an above average goaltender, who when hot can steal some games. But nothing like the player he was. Sorry. But that is the absolute truth, and THE CAUSE of this whole mess. Period. Finito. Ad Infinitum...

btw: you would think his stats would have a bearing on any trade - why would AV leave him in for all 8 goals the last time he got blown out? Odd, wouldn't you say?

Edited by canucksnihilist, 07 April 2013 - 04:36 PM.

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#1055 Alex Burrows 14

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 06:14 PM

A Loss is a Loss ! Period.


Ya, i agree, that is what i posted above. I dont see how it was a bad coaching decision though
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#1056 Nuxfanabroad

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 06:38 PM

Imagine we have an excellent playoff(open to your interpretation-finals/winning/whatever). Then try something like this...

To Philly:Lu, Ballard, Booth, Sauve..(about 13.5 mill in Cap)

Van: Bryz(we buy out), Schenn(tough RH D-man), Couturier, or 2014 1st rounder.(end up with about 5 mill in cap-64.3 mill becomes very doable)

I leave the last 2 pieces as either/or, good young player, or a 1st...Mainly interested if anyone agrees in the wisdom of accepting a MAJOR buyout, considering Booth/Ballard could also be amnesty-candidates, I see this as fair/possible.

Edited by Nuxfanabroad, 07 April 2013 - 06:42 PM.

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#1057 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:24 PM

We ll end up trading with Florida..

Lu and Raymond for Versteeg +


Yes. Our team's player are worth nothing.
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#1058 elvis15

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:34 PM

Going backwards to forwards; i'll try and respond then draw a conclusion alrady reflected in other posts (which were not direct responses to you Elvis).

3) Luongo's contract is onerous because he is being paid to be a superstar. He has been a very good goaie, but been outplayed by opposing goalies over the past 4 year playoff losses, and Schneider now. He has not lived up to a $64 mill deal, simple.

2) I believe MG foresaw a cup window. Lou was a Vezina finalist in 2007, all star calaibre in 09, Schneids was unproven. So he played his big card signing Lou. I'm quite sure MG, and ownership, did the deal believing it would get a cup, maybe 2? You might think it was a signal or a message to UFA's, that's an opinion. Fans get caught up in that, but I disagree. He was signed to outplay the Tim Thomas's of the world, not recruit guys like Malhotra to sign UFA deals. It may help, but only until you get outplayed by Tim Thomas.

Signing deals to send a message? To me thats like being a big shot at the casino (see Bruce McNall) to prove you legit. Signings should be done as the right investment in the right piece of your puzzle. When you get it right it sends a message, but thats secondary.

And when your wrong; you have to cut your losses, that's Lou. The Predator's? I'll grant Nashville prob wanted to send their fans a message they were not packing up. But I also debate they could leveraged the $20 mill plus they paid (and first round picks received as compensation) in the last 10 months into a better team. That would have been a better message. Just my view.

1) If Nashville's hand is forced due to money, odd's are they have already blown it. Yup, they will still get a good haul for Weber. But they will never get back the signing bonuses and salary they have paid him. How much of this year $13 mill bonus did they have to pay (honest question)? Lets see how long it will take to parlay him back in to a top team?

Which brings us back to Lou, our issue. Weber is a bad comparison, at least he is still playing like a Norris candidate. Lou looked at the start of the year like he would outplay Schneider, and all he faced. If we get back to that, the trade will come around. I was hoping he would get the start in Calgary?

If he does not, our investment will continue to slide...

I'll do them in reverse order so the numbers make sense:
  • This was my original and most important point. You opinion seems to be the return for Weber in a trade is still valued quite high despite his contract. His play has improved, yes, but I don't think he's in the same comversation as others this year (Subban, Suter, Letang, and Karlsson before his injury) for the Norris. For him to have the highest cap hit of any D in the league, the standard you hold Luongo by doesn't seem to apply to Weber, when he's been outplayed by his former partner and others in the league, and his team is out of the playoff picture.

    As far as his bonus, he get's paid the $13M immediately (first year due when the deal was signed, second year due at the start of free agency, July 5, which marks a new season). His $1M in salary was affected by the lockout though, and prorated to the number of games played.
  • Well, you mention opinion, and that's yours. I don't think either of us who had talked about the message it sends think it is a major component of why the deal was signed. It certainly is a bonus effect of the contract signing though, one which I'm sure MG was aware of, same with Poile in Nashville.

    He wasn't given a top 10 cap hit to be a for certain #1 goalie in the NHL, one that would be all but a guarantee to beat any other top goalie in the league. He was paid to compete with those goalies and at least be in the discussion for a top goalie, and I think he's done that, but with the deal the way it is, he still has a much more affordable cap hit than someone like Lundqvist for example. Where's he in the Vezina voting this year? Should New York cut their losses since he has a $1.5M higher cap hit than Luongo and accounts for over 12% of the Rangers salary cap (Luongo is just under 9% of the Canucks)?
  • Luongo's being paid to be a top goalie in the league, as I mentioned, but I disagree he was being paid to the level that he should beat any other top goalie in the league. Don't forget the start Luongo had, and just how good he's looked this season apart from a few starts. The year Thomas had, and to expect Luongo to top that regardless is a bit presumptuous as well.

    If you feel that to be the case, then you also have to feel that should be the case for Weber, as I already mentioned he's certainly not the #1 d-man in the NHL right now despite carrying the highest cap hit (didn't Luongo look pretty good this year as well?).

Edited by elvis15, 08 April 2013 - 10:41 AM.

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#1059 VanNuck

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:11 PM

Luongo's poor play has, save for certain instances like against Detroit, been overblown. Take last playoffs for instance, in Game 1, he was actually quite solid, but so was Jonathan Quick. He was the Nucks' best player on the ice. He faltered in Game 2, at which point they went with Schneider and never looked back. Schneider played well, about as well as Lou played in Game 1 - either way, it wasn't going to make any difference, the way the rest of the team was playing.

Gillis, however, he was the one who really blew it for Luongo when he did little to support him after his failures and effectively allowed the fans to crucify him. It's no wonder why he's falling apart, his mental strength and determination is gone now, and thus so is his game. That's why I said Gillis was the one who must go.
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#1060 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:13 PM

Im surprised at how much activity there is in this thread honestly.
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#1061 VanNuck

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:13 PM

Luongo and the Canucks, as I said many times before, have no option but to start over and let him have his starting job back, give him every chance to take off.
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#1062 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:22 PM

Luongo and the Canucks, as I said many times before, have no option but to start over and let him have his starting job back, give him every chance to take off.


Exactly. The contract is an Achilles heel that must be rectified. The only way to rectify it is by playing him. Schneider is great. He'll garner an amazing return at the draft.

Furthermore, one trying to find how to mistreat a star player with utmost efficiency need not look further than the Canucks toward Luongo.

Lastly, Schneider is becoming arrogant. Watch him falter and lose his starting position during the playoffs which should never have been his in the first place.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 07 April 2013 - 11:26 PM.

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#1063 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:15 AM

Your right, Weber is certainly worth less with his contract than before. My strongest opinion is that Nashville should have let him walk. Nearly $28 mill even with the lockout, by the time July 1 hits. Wow, before he has played 50 games? Imagine the team they could ice with that amount of $'s. And they do have $16 mill in cap space even with Weber, they couldhave spent it.

Lou is a pretty damn good goalie. And it was impressive the commitment he put in with Allaire in the off season. It looked like he might steal the job back. Too bad AV didnt inflate his stats before the deadline.

Two years ago I argued Schneider should be given some time, last year CoHo. Right now we also need to play Lou!

Oh, and remember how he played after Cory was given the start in (what was it) gme 6 in Chicago? Lou needs a little fear, and right now he is scared. I bet he would play lights out!




I'll do them in reverse order so the numbers make sense:

  • This was my original and most important point. You opinion seems to be the return for Weber in a trade is still valued quite high despite his contract. His play has improved, yes, but I don't think he's in the same comversation as others this year (Subban, Suter, Letang, and Karlsson before his injury) for the Norris. For him to have the highest cap hit of any D in the league, the standard you hold Luongo by doesn't seem to apply to Weber, when he's been outplayed by his former partner and others in the league, and his team is out of the playoff picture.

    As far as his bonus, he get's paid the $13M immediately (first year due when the deal was signed, second year due at the start of free agency, July 5, which marks a new season). His $1M in salary was affected by the lockout though, and prorated to the number of games played.
  • Well, you mention opinion, and that's yours. I don't think either of us who had talked about the message it sends think it is a major component of why the deal was signed. It certainly is a bonus effect of the contract signing though, one which I'm sure MG was aware of, same with Poile in Nashville.

    He wasn't given a top 10 cap hit to be a for certain #1 goalie in the NHL, one that would be all but a guarantee to beat any other top goalie in the league. He was paid to compete with those goalies and at least be in the discussion for a top goalie, and I think he's done that, but with the deal the way it is, he still has a much more affordable cap hit than someone like Lundqvist for example. Where's he in the Vezina voting this year? Should New York cut their losses since he has a $1.5M higher cap hit than Luongo and accounts for over 12% of the Rangers salary cap (Luongo is just under 9% of the Canucks)?
  • Luongo's being paid to be a top goalie in the league, as I mentioned, but I disagree he was being paid to the level that he should beat any other top goalie in the league. Don't forget the start Luongo had, and just how good he's looked this season apart from a few starts. The year Thomas had, and to expect Luongo to top that regardless is a bit presumptuous as well.

    If you feel that to be the case, then you also have to feel that should be the case for Weber, as I already mentioned he's certainly not the #1 d-man in the NHL right now despite carrying the highest cap hit (didn't Luongo look pretty good this year as well?).


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#1064 Pears

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:38 AM

Luongo and the Canucks, as I said many times before, have no option but to start over and let him have his starting job back, give him every chance to take off.

On a new team
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#1065 smurf47

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:27 AM

Luongo's poor play has, save for certain instances like against Detroit, been overblown. Take last playoffs for instance, in Game 1, he was actually quite solid, but so was Jonathan Quick. He was the Nucks' best player on the ice. He faltered in Game 2, at which point they went with Schneider and never looked back. Schneider played well, about as well as Lou played in Game 1 - either way, it wasn't going to make any difference, the way the rest of the team was playing.

Gillis, however, he was the one who really blew it for Luongo when he did little to support him after his failures and effectively allowed the fans to crucify him. It's no wonder why he's falling apart, his mental strength and determination is gone now, and thus so is his game. That's why I said Gillis was the one who must go.

Actually, his mental strength and determination are gone because his game is gone. He worked through the lockout on technical issues(his words not mine). He instituted technical corrections early in the season but for whatever reason is not utilizing them now. He came on in relief of Schneider in Edmonton and said he struggled. Lou knows his game and knows Schneider is outplaying him .Unless Lou can fix his technical issues, he is doomed to mediocrity. Like it or not MG has gone with the better goalie.
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#1066 elvis15

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:13 PM

Your right, Weber is certainly worth less with his contract than before. ...

I'm not so sure everyone would agree with that, at least to the point that Luongo seems devalued by his. As a comparison, with Toronto basically saying Luongo's not worth two 2nd round picks and Scrivens because the Leafs already have NHL capable goaltending in Scrivens and Reimer, would you say Weber's value has similarly dropped? Would you consider Gunnarson and two 2nds (this year's 2nd would be a high 2nd) too much for Philly to give up on Weber since they already have "NHL capable" defence in Gunnarson, Couburn, Mezaros, Schenn, Bourdon and Gustafsson as their young core going forward?
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#1067 BrownSuperman

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:50 PM

@LD10: Dregs just said on @TSNDrive - "Vancouver wanted Colborne, MacArthur, Scrivens and a 2nd."
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#1068 Pears

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:52 PM

@LD10: Dregs just said on @TSNDrive - "Vancouver wanted Colborne, MacArthur, Scrivens and a 2nd."

I really don't see how Nonis sees that as bad deal...
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#1069 elvis15

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:54 PM

@LD10: Dregs just said on @TSNDrive - "Vancouver wanted Colborne, MacArthur, Scrivens and a 2nd."

I thought he said we wanted two 2nds and Scrivens? Can he make up his mind already? I don't mind Dreger at all usually, but he's shilling for his cousin a little hard on this one.
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#1070 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:05 PM

I thought he said we wanted two 2nds and Scrivens? Can he make up his mind already? I don't mind Dreger at all usually, but he's shilling for his cousin a little hard on this one.


So Gillis asks for Colborne, McArthur, Scrivens and a 2nd and Nonis lowballs Gillis by countering with Scrivens and two 2nds?

I see a bright future for Nonis........
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#1071 Noheart

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:43 PM

So Gillis asks for Colborne, McArthur, Scrivens and a 2nd and Nonis lowballs Gillis by countering with Scrivens and two 2nds?

I see a bright future for Nonis........


Man, you can't keep looking at this as a player for player trade.

Luongo's contract is bigger than he is.

The new CBA really screwed us.

Even Luongo himself said this!!

" my contract sucks"

"it's why I am still here"

"I would rip it up right now"

What would have happened to Nonis if the leafs played the Bruins and Luongo had a meltdown in Boston?

I'm not saying that would happen but that is the sorta thing a GM in Toronto has gotta deal with.
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#1072 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:59 PM

Man, you can't keep looking at this as a player for player trade.

Luongo's contract is bigger than he is.

The new CBA really screwed us.

Even Luongo himself said this!!

" my contract sucks"

"it's why I am still here"

"I would rip it up right now"

What would have happened to Nonis if the leafs played the Bruins and Luongo had a meltdown in Boston?

I'm not saying that would happen but that is the sorta thing a GM in Toronto has gotta deal with.


A Toronto Boston final is impossible under the current format. Just sayin'
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#1073 Riviera82

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:12 PM

A Toronto Boston final is impossible under the current format. Just sayin'


How about the first 3 rounds?
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#1074 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:44 PM

How about the first 3 rounds?


Do you consider a Conference Final loss as important as a Game 7 SCF loss?

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 08 April 2013 - 08:45 PM.

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#1075 Riviera82

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:51 PM

Do you consider a Conference Final loss as important as a Game 7 SCF loss?


A Conference Final loss is less upsetting than losing a 1 game winner take all for the championship. I guess it's not as important but either way, it doesn't matter when you lose, you still go home with nothing.
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#1076 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:12 PM

A Conference Final loss is less upsetting than losing a 1 game winner take all for the championship. I guess it's not as important but either way, it doesn't matter when you lose, you still go home with nothing.


And when you win, you go home with EVERYTHING.

That's how she goes.
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#1077 Riviera82

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:41 PM

And when you win, you go home with EVERYTHING.

That's how she goes.


Yeah that's right, what are we talking about now?
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#1078 Noheart

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:49 PM

A Toronto Boston final is impossible under the current format. Just sayin'


Who said anything about the final?

Man are you a spazz
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#1079 oldnews

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:01 PM

@LD10: Dregs just said on @TSNDrive - "Vancouver wanted Colborne, MacArthur, Scrivens and a 2nd."


That sounds more like it - prospect, ufa forward, short term backup, 2nd.
Dreger's original story of a pair of 2nds and Scrivens made no sense - no real incentive for Vancouver to cut that deal - wasting asset value on Scrivens when Lack will be healthy, downgrading from Luo to Scrivens as a backup, and futures they could pick up in the offseason.
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#1080 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:16 AM

You don't reckon the market is somewhat limited for Weber by having a $100 mill plus contract? Existing players aside, it realistically leaves 6 or 8 teams only who should be able to commit that and not have it handcuff them. Nashville still has just shy of $17 mill in cap space. But they play in real money and have none left after paying Shea's actual take home pay. Anyway, no sense over indulging Weber's conversation; Unless they'll pick him up for Lou because his contract only has $40 mill remaining.

More to topic. I guess Toronto is entitled to their posturing, annoying as it is at our end. Gillis himself, who used to run an air tight ship, has not looked good playing the media posturing game either.

Look in actual hockey moves, Nonis was conservative here, trading Bertuzzi aside (who had to go, which made it still a conservative move). He saved up salary cap space and was building on draft picks and good coaching. There is no major change in operating tactics now. Nonis will wait till he actually needs something. While his goalies have been holding up, why panic...

I wonder if Gillis and his team had another deal lined up; and were actually happy just to dump the contract? Thats more fun converstaion.

They did say they were willing to go all in. We heard rumblings of Clowe, even Clarkson out of Jersey. Man would that have been an awesome pickup. Wonder what he would have cost?

LOL, apparently it wasn't Lou... :rolleyes:

I'm not so sure everyone would agree with that, at least to the point that Luongo seems devalued by his. As a comparison, with Toronto basically saying Luongo's not worth two 2nd round picks and Scrivens because the Leafs already have NHL capable goaltending in Scrivens and Reimer, would you say Weber's value has similarly dropped? Would you consider Gunnarson and two 2nds (this year's 2nd would be a high 2nd) too much for Philly to give up on Weber since they already have "NHL capable" defence in Gunnarson, Couburn, Mezaros, Schenn, Bourdon and Gustafsson as their young core going forward?


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