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Standard and Poor gives B.C. highest possible rating over budget and fiscal plan


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#31 canucks_dynasty

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:06 PM

I predict the AAA rating will be downgraded to AA+ rating with NDP in power. I think that's what happened the last time NDP was in power too.
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#32 bolt

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 04:29 PM

This is the same Standard and Poor's that knowingly overrated subprime and other mortgage securities as AAA when they knew it was toxic garbage, thus helping financial houses peddle this crap. In the process defrauding investors such as governments, pension funds, municipalities and individuals worldwide.

The "Big 3" have no credibility. The only ratings agency that seems to have an ounce of morality is Egan Jones.




The morality (and criminality) of said rating agency is being questioned in court by the DOJ who is seeking $5 billion dollars in damages in their fraud complaint.




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#33 Electro Rock

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 04:49 PM

Anyone considering voting for either the NDP or the Liberals, given their track records, needs to put down the glass pipe.



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#34 Gross-Misconduct

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 04:57 PM

This is the same Standard and Poor's that knowingly overrated subprime and other mortgage securities as AAA when they knew it was toxic garbage, thus helping financial houses peddle this crap. In the process defrauding investors such as governments, pension funds, municipalities and individuals worldwide.

The "Big 3" have no credibility. The only ratings agency that seems to have an ounce of morality is Egan Jones.

The morality (and criminality) of said rating agency is being questioned in court by the DOJ who is seeking $5 billion dollars in damages in their fraud complaint.


:lol: Kinda deflated the purpose of this thread.

Response?...
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#35 Wetcoaster

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 05:18 PM

I predict the AAA rating will be downgraded to AA+ rating with NDP in power. I think that's what happened the last time NDP was in power too.

Actually under Clark it dropped lower than that.

Under Harcourt the S&P rating was AA+. By the time Clark was forced from office in 1999 the rating had dropped to AA-. By 2005 the rating under the BC Liberals had climbed back to AA as a number of disastrous policies were ended and new polices began to take effect, in 2006 it was AA+ and 2007 it was raised to AAA where it has remained.

Moody's Investor Services tracks pretty much the same ratings historically in the same time period as S&P..

In April 2012 Moody's confirmed BC's AAA rating but issued a cautionary note that a loss of fiscal discipline leading to more than just a temporary increase in BC's debt burden and debt service ratios would apply downward pressure on the AAA rating. It was noted that the HST referendum and return to the PST had a negative fiscal impact and caused the deficit to up but not as much as forecast as the province had taken measures to cushion the negative impact caused by the return to the PST.
http://www.fin.gov.b...atingMoodys.pdf

In December 2012 Moody's changed the rating from AAA stable to AAA negative over concerns that BC might not cope with softened commodity prices and concern over achieving fiscal targets. As noted this could negative rating could be removed depending upon the upcoming budget. Moody's P-1 rating on British Columbia's commercial paper program remained unchanged.
http://www.moodys.co...e-on--PR_261569

On April 4, 2012 Moody's removed the negative rating after the current budget was tabled.


Prominent rating agency Moody's Investors Service reconfirmed B.C.'s Aaa-grade credit rating. B.C. and Alberta are the only two provinces that share that rating, which is Moody's highest.


The move is reassuring, given that it comes four months after the agency downgraded B.C.'s financial outlook, lowering the province's debt rating from stable to negative.


On April 4, however, Moody's noted that B.C.'s debt burden remains manageable, considering its credit strengths and high debt affordability in the current low-interest-rate environment.


The rating affirmation comes after the BC Liberal government tabled a budget and fiscal plan in February that forecast a deficit of $1.2 billion to come in the 2012-13 fiscal year and budget surpluses in all three years of the 2013-16 fiscal plan for a total of $868 million by 2016.


The rating also comes on the day that the opposition NDP accused the Liberals of tabling a budget that is deliberately designed to hide a $780 million deficit in the 2013-14 fiscal year by instead forecasting a $200 million surplus.

http://www.biv.com/a...a-credit-rating

With the tax and spend BC NDP in power these AAA ratings would again be in jeopardy as they were during the last BC NDP administrations and that means that not only will debt and deficits rise but the cost of servicing the debt will increase and cost taxpayers significantly more. Kind of a double whammy.
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#36 iwtl

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:59 PM

Tax and spend NDP - way to funny. The liberals through user fee increases and other taxes such as carbon tax take far more from a working stiffs pockets than the NDP. The BC Liberals just call it something else and because the line item that says "tax" on your pay stub is lower they declared taxes where less - but giving you back 30 and then taking from your other pocket = more taxes.

Thanks for wet for this one - BC Liberals - Double down - double tax - the Tax and spend party for a new generation.... kinda fits
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#37 ccc44

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:27 PM

So is Adrian Dix! You know, the NDP leader who admitted lieing and falsifiying documents. Should be a hoot to see what he can do as premiere. At least we know going in, he's dishonest.

Hey people kept voting in a drunk , And we all know that all politicians are liars so bring on the one that wants too tax the money hoarders more sounds good to me maybe it will decrease the poverty level in this province.

Besides i could careless what our credit rating is right now , We live in the most over taxed province already so they should have plenty of money if they would start using it in the province and stop putting in there pockets

The Liberals have been raping us far to long for them and there corporate buddys and would be nice if a new party could come in maybe ease of the raping cause we know they all have a agenda its just what will be lesser of the 2 evils

Edited by ccc44, 13 April 2013 - 08:34 PM.

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#38 gurn

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:57 PM

I would think that the fast ferries "fiasco" is matched and beaten by the convention center overuns.
also keep in mind the Liberals turned down an offer to by the ferries, waited a while, then sold them at auction for millions less than the offer from the Washington marine group.
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#39 Common sense

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:27 PM

Hey people kept voting in a drunk , And we all know that all politicians are liars so bring on the one that wants too tax the money hoarders more sounds good to me maybe it will decrease the poverty level in this province.

Besides i could careless what our credit rating is right now , We live in the most over taxed province already so they should have plenty of money if they would start using it in the province and stop putting in there pockets

The Liberals have been raping us far to long for them and there corporate buddys and would be nice if a new party could come in maybe ease of the raping cause we know they all have a agenda its just what will be lesser of the 2 evils


After reading your post, I just died of grammar cancer.
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#40 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 09:55 AM

I would think that the fast ferries "fiasco" is matched and beaten by the convention center overuns.
also keep in mind the Liberals turned down an offer to by the ferries, waited a while, then sold them at auction for millions less than the offer from the Washington marine group.

How so? At least there is an operating asset in existence in the province.

You do know that the fast ferries were in fact sold to the Washington Marine Group who in turn then sold them to Abu Dhabi Mar, a yacht-building company based in the United Arab Emirates.
http://www.cbc.ca/ne...rries-sold.html

Do you have a reputable link that says otherwise?
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#41 Gross-Misconduct

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:23 AM

After reading your post, I just died of grammar cancer.


Let me translate.

The BC Liberals are a collection of corrupt, contemptuous and inept individuals who make lying to the public their political platform.
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#42 kyledude

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:37 AM

Is that the same S&P being indicted for assigning fraudulent ratings?

It's possible that they're even more corrupt than the BC Liberals.
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#43 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:30 AM

Is that the same S&P being indicted for assigning fraudulent ratings?

It's possible that they're even more corrupt than the BC Liberals.

Yes. Standard and Poor has been charged. Here are the details.
http://www.economist...-victim-support

However in this case the other two major ratings services (Dominion Bond Rating and Moody's) agree with S&P's conclusions in respect of BC and track the same historical ratings results.
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#44 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:30 AM

Let me translate.

The BC Liberals are a collection of corrupt, contemptuous and inept individuals who make lying to the public their political platform.

Your translation software seems to be badly coded.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

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#45 Gross-Misconduct

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:32 AM

Is that the same S&P being indicted for assigning fraudulent ratings?

It's possible that they're even more corrupt than the BC Liberals.


SSshhhhh. You're ruining it!
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#46 Gross-Misconduct

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:33 AM

Your translation software seems to be badly coded.


Nope. I checked. It's set on truth.
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#47 gurn

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:16 PM

How so? At least there is an operating asset in existence in the province.

You do know that the fast ferries were in fact sold to the Washington Marine Group who in turn then sold them to Abu Dhabi Mar, a yacht-building company based in the United Arab Emirates.
http://www.cbc.ca/ne...rries-sold.html

Do you have a reputable link that says otherwise?


Yes, I am aware that the WMG bought the ships at the auction (Ritchie Bros iirc). This was after they offered $ 75 mill and were turned down. This story was on Michael Smyth's first "Nightline BC" episode on CKNW, and was confirmed by the vice pres of WMG. I am unable to find that link and due to a computer crash have lost the page/link that I saved at the time. However Idid find this:
http://www.cbc.ca/ne...ries030325.html
"The company that helped build British Columbia's fast ferries bought them back Monday during a bargain auction.
The Washington Marine Group bought the three PacifiCats for slightly more than $19 million. They cost $450 million to build.

The company owns Vancouver Shipyards, one of the companies responsible for building the boats.
A spokesperson for Washington Marine says the company has no immediate plans for the ferries but didn't want to see them sold for scrap.
The president of the Shipyard Workers' Federation says the "fast ferries fiasco" is far from over.
"Just before Christmas there was an offer on the table for $60 million, so clearly the minister threw an awful lot of money out the door here yesterday on behalf of the taxpayers — that I find very troubling," said George McPherson.
McPherson blames the Liberal government for unloading the ferries for political reasons. B.C. Ferries has said it tried to sell the PacifiCats on a number of earlier occasions, but the deals fell through. "

And just whom gets to decide if a link is "reputable" anyway. :)
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#48 nuckin_futz

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:21 PM

Yes. Standard and Poor has been charged. Here are the details.
http://www.economist...-victim-support

However in this case the other two major ratings services (Dominion Bond Rating and Moody's) agree with S&P's conclusions in respect of BC and track the same historical ratings results.


Moody's and Fitch for that matter did the same things S&P did. Rated obvious highly speculative crap AAA, only they have yet to be charged.

Trumpeting the opinions/ratings of liars and cheats doesn't really help to strengthen your argument.
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#49 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:42 PM

Moody's and Fitch for that matter did the same things S&P did. Rated obvious highly speculative crap AAA, only they have yet to be charged.

Trumpeting the opinions/ratings of liars and cheats doesn't really help to strengthen your argument.

Moodys has not been charged and the third rating service I referenced was Dominion not Fitch's.

Since credit is based upon those ratings, in the real world it has impact on real BC taxpayers and the US charges have no effect on that..
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#50 nuckin_futz

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:11 PM

Moodys has not been charged and the third rating service I referenced was Dominion not Fitch's.

Since credit is based upon those ratings, in the real world it has impact on real BC taxpayers and the US charges have no effect on that..


Yes I know Moody's has not been charged. They did exactly what S&P did, their time is coming.

I mentioned Fitch because they are part of the "Big 3". You mistakenly referenced DBRS as one of the Big 3 in your earlier post.

Has no effect? If you're going to invest or loan money for investment into this province are you not going to look into the credibility of the agency making the Tripe A rating? S&P is now viewed with a jaundiced eye. DBRS has more credibility than they do.



Yes. Standard and Poor has been charged. Here are the details.
http://www.economist...-victim-support

However in this case the other two major ratings services (Dominion Bond Rating and Moody's) agree with S&P's conclusions in respect of BC and track the same historical ratings results.


Dominion is not one of the "Big 3". The Big 3 are S&P, Moody's and Fitch. Dominion is much farther down the list. Though I would say they have more credibility than S&P. Who are still wiping egg off their face.

Edited by nuckin_futz, 14 April 2013 - 02:12 PM.

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#51 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:20 PM

Yes I know Moody's has not been charged. They did exactly what S&P did, their time is coming.

I mentioned Fitch because they are part of the "Big 3". You mistakenly referenced DBRS as one of the Big 3 in your earlier post.

Has no effect? If you're going to invest or loan money for investment into this province are you not going to look into the credibility of the agency making the Tripe A rating? S&P is now viewed with a jaundiced eye. DBRS has more credibility than they do.





Dominion is not one of the "Big 3". The Big 3 are S&P, Moody's and Fitch. Dominion is much farther down the list. Though I would say they have more credibility than S&P. Who are still wiping egg off their face.

In Canada Dominion is considered one of the Big Three.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

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#52 nuckin_futz

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:29 PM

In Canada Dominion is considered one of the Big Three.


Thanks for the chuckle. Perhaps you should change the title of your thread to herald their rating.
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#53 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:35 PM

Thanks for the chuckle. Perhaps you should change the title of your thread to herald their rating.

I do not understand you chuckling. As was noted in the first line of my post the ratings agencies being referenced included Dominion and Moodys - S&P had just issued the a rating in accord with the other two.

No need to change the title.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

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#54 Common sense

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:23 PM

Let me translate.

The BC Liberals are a collection of corrupt, contemptuous and inept individuals who make lying to the public their political platform.


That's what all politicians do, NDP or Liberal. What's your point?
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#55 ronthecivil

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:50 AM

That's what all politicians do, NDP or Liberal. What's your point?

Don't forget pandering as well. We're so screwed.
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#56 HTania

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:12 AM

BC is indeed in a better shape now.
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#57 inane

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:34 AM




VICTORIA - There was Premier Christy Clark Monday, dedicating herself to the goal of a “debt-free British Columbia,” and telling reporters that debt reduction has always been “a central value for me.”

Alas for Clark and her B.C. Liberals, the record of her time in office, reflected in the audited financial statements combined with her government’s three-year-fiscal plan, tell a radically different story.

Clark took the oath of office as premier two weeks before the March 31 end of the 2010-2011 financial year. The provincial debt, including borrowing by central government and its Crown corporations and agencies, stood at $45 billion.

Her predecessor, premier Gordon Campbell, having inherited a debt of $34 billion from the previous New Democratic Party government, had managed to slow the rate of borrowing during his second term as premier.

But after the 2008 global financial crisis, it began growing again, and Clark did nothing to slacken the pace. In her first two years, her government added $11 billion to the debt, the biggest jump in dollar terms in provincial history.

Nor did she reverse the trend with the budget and fiscal plan tabled in the legislature in February this year.

The plan called for three balanced budgets on the operational side, meaning no cause to borrow more money to fund ongoing programs like health care, education and other government services.

But Clark and her colleagues continued to budget for a huge increase in borrowing for capital projects, including the ambitious rebuilding of the BC Hydro network, the Port Mann Bridge and other transportation projects, and numerous schools, hospitals, college and university buildings, and other public works.

Altogether, the Liberal plan proposes to add $6 billion to the total provincial debt this year, $4 billion in the financial year beginning April 1, 2014 and $3 billion the year after that.

So the premier who wishes to be recognized for a commitment to make the province debt free is in fact proposing to increase the provincial debt by $13 billion over three years, having already increased it by $11 billion.

Or, to put it another way, the leader who supposedly holds debt reduction as one of her “central values” would — presuming her government were to be re-elected — preside over a plan to raise the debt to $69 billion, a better-than-50-per-cent increase over where it stood when she took office.

Give her fiscal purity, Lord — just not yet.

Clark’s debt-elimination plan, as sketched out in the Liberal election platform released Monday, relies on the government being able to tap the anticipated windfall from development of an industry to export the provincial natural gas resource in liquefied form to Asian markets.

LNG development is much needed in terms of shoring up provincial resource revenues. But there are many ifs to the scenario, well-intentioned though it is.

Even in the best-case outcome outlined by the B.C. Liberals, the revenue would not start flowing into the envisioned B.C. Prosperity Fund until 2017 at the earliest. Therefore, Clark is running this year on the promise of a windfall that won’t come to fruition until the election after this one, if then.

Nor was that the only absurdity in the platform.

She trumpeted a plan to reduce the small business tax from the current 2.5 per cent to 1.5 per cent “no later than” the 2017 financial year. That one should also be footnoted against the record.

On the eve of the last provincial election, the Liberals pledged to lower the small business tax to zero, wiping it out altogether, effective April 1, 2012.

Clark inherited that schedule when she took office in 2011 and promptly abandoned it as part of the struggle to balance the budget, leaving the rate at 2.5 per cent.

Thus on Monday she invited business leaders to celebrate the prospect that four years from now, the small business tax rate will be reduced to a level that would still be 1.5 points higher than where it should have been this time last year, if the Liberals had kept the promise they made in the last election.

Her election platform also included the promise of a “core review” of all ministries as part of an effort to contain spending, cut costs and eliminate programs and services that are deemed to be not an essential part of the core services of government.

Say, didn’t the Liberals already do one of those?

Yes, after the 2001 election. They launched a second one in all but name starting in 2008, which has to date led to the reduction of the equivalent of 6,000 full-time positions in the public service.

But the core review was part of a theme that “everything old shall be new again,” along with the commitments to cut red tape — now there’s a fresh idea! — freeze taxes and restore balanced budget legislation.

What won’t these Liberals think of next: open cabinet meetings? A waste buster website?

Joking aside, at the same time as the premier invokes the darker aspects of the NDP time in office in the 1990s, she would appear to be counting on the voters to have short memories of the Liberal record.
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#58 Heretic

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:43 AM

Yeah it's a little funny isn't it.

It's one of the reason I shake my head when people get so irrationally anti one in favor of the other.


The lesser of 2 evils? ;)
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#59 silverpig

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:31 AM

Debt isn't a bad thing for governments to have. Actually, some debt is good. If interest rates are low (which they are, and for the government even more so), and you can invest the money to get a higher return (which the government can do as infrastructure projects offer a great economic return), you borrow and build.

Borrowing money to offset a structural deficit (read: to pay operating expenses), is bad.
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Moo

#60 inane

inane

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:34 AM

Debt isn't a bad thing for governments to have. Actually, some debt is good. If interest rates are low (which they are, and for the government even more so), and you can invest the money to get a higher return (which the government can do as infrastructure projects offer a great economic return), you borrow and build.

Borrowing money to offset a structural deficit (read: to pay operating expenses), is bad.


That's the thing about this budget, they are selling assets to pay for operating expenses and calling it balanced. That's crazy.
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