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#61 wizeman

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:06 PM

My thoughts exactly.


Glad you accept my advice.

Next time present all of the facts when trying to articulate an opinion.
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#62 ForsbergTheGreat

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:36 PM

Your post again picks out one item with tweezers and ignores the other 99% of the information.

I understand your frustration as you are now using personal insults. Its a sure sign you are losing the argument.
If you are willing to calm down a bit, and just look at all the facts, then I am sure you will see it.

Luongo would have no problem staying here if Schneider was traded.


You know this for a fact. That guys been treated like crap by this team management and city. He's done nothing but give his best. He has been under the spot light since coming here, you don't think he see's a chance and may actually want out.

On top of that anytime someone disputes your so called "assumptions cough...cough" facts, you respond with "telling the person they are nit picking there answer.

So what do we have here:

Cory will demanding 7 million in two years or walk out as a UFA
Sedins are getting older or window in closings
The return for cory will be much higher than Luongos
canucks retain Luongos cap hit when he retires in 5 years
Lack will take over number 1 when Luo retires

That it? I got all the "facts". Am i missing anything?

Cory will demanding 7 million in two years or walk out as a UFA
No way of knowing how much he will be asking for, IF he demands 7 million and canucks pay him that, then its safe to say he deserves and has earned it. Cory has easily been this teams MVP this year, Should he not be getting paid like it?

Sedins are getting older our window in closings
Again would this win now mentality not insinuate that we keep the goalie that gives us the best chance at winning now? Which has clearly been cory.

The return for cory will be much higher than Luongos
Possibly, but again three things,
1)if we want the impact player to help us win now, he will cost up cap, Cap that we can't afford to give up with the cap max at 64 next year.
2)If we want a future impact player to replace the sedins when they slow down. Wouldn't it be smart to start building a team from the net out with a goalie who's already NHL proven? Unlike any potential realistic prospect we could obtain.
3)If Gillis was offered a trade he couldn't refuse, wouldn't Cory already have been moved. Teams don't need to come up in public and tell the world that they are shopping a player in order for other GMs to put in an offer on him. I don't doubt that other GM's were inquiring about Schneider before deadline. Obviously nothing happened

Canucks retain Luongos cap hit when he retires in 5 years
You have merit on this topic but who realistically knows when luongo will retire. His cap hit becomes beneficial to teams looking to spend little and hit the cap floor. If you were to ask luongo if he could play until he is past his 40's i'm sure he'd say yes, especially if he was in a non hockey driven market (aka Florida) where he isn't being scrutinized ever goal he lets in.

Lack will take over number 1 when Luo retires
Again Lack isn't 20, he is 25. In 5 years IF Luongo decides to hang them up, Lack will be 30. If Lack is the next "Cory" why on earth would he remain a back up until he's 30?
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#63 wizeman

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:07 PM

You know this for a fact. That guys been treated like crap by this team management and city. He's done nothing but give his best. He has been under the spot light since coming here, you don't think he see's a chance and may actually want out.

On top of that anytime someone disputes your so called "assumptions cough...cough" facts, you respond with "telling the person they are nit picking there answer.

So what do we have here:

Cory will demanding 7 million in two years or walk out as a UFA
Sedins are getting older or window in closings
The return for cory will be much higher than Luongos
canucks retain Luongos cap hit when he retires in 5 years
Lack will take over number 1 when Luo retires

That it? I got all the "facts". Am i missing anything?

Cory will demanding 7 million in two years or walk out as a UFA
No way of knowing how much he will be asking for, IF he demands 7 million and canucks pay him that, then its safe to say he deserves and has earned it. Cory has easily been this teams MVP this year, Should he not be getting paid like it?

Sedins are getting older our window in closings
Again would this win now mentality not insinuate that we keep the goalie that gives us the best chance at winning now? Which has clearly been cory.

The return for cory will be much higher than Luongos
Possibly, but again three things,
1)if we want the impact player to help us win now, he will cost up cap, Cap that we can't afford to give up with the cap max at 64 next year.
2)If we want a future impact player to replace the sedins when they slow down. Wouldn't it be smart to start building a team from the net out with a goalie who's already NHL proven? Unlike any potential realistic prospect we could obtain.
3)If Gillis was offered a trade he couldn't refuse, wouldn't Cory already have been moved. Teams don't need to come up in public and tell the world that they are shopping a player in order for other GMs to put in an offer on him. I don't doubt that other GM's were inquiring about Schneider before deadline. Obviously nothing happened

Canucks retain Luongos cap hit when he retires in 5 years
You have merit on this topic but who realistically knows when luongo will retire. His cap hit becomes beneficial to teams looking to spend little and hit the cap floor. If you were to ask luongo if he could play until he is past his 40's i'm sure he'd say yes, especially if he was in a non hockey driven market (aka Florida) where he isn't being scrutinized ever goal he lets in.

Lack will take over number 1 when Luo retires
Again Lack isn't 20, he is 25. In 5 years IF Luongo decides to hang them up, Lack will be 30. If Lack is the next "Cory" why on earth would he remain a back up until he's 30?


I give you credit for looking at the bigger picture. I give you a plus 1

Now, the actual details do start to become my opinion. I am using an educated guess but you are right. I cant prove it. But neither can you. You cant 'prove' any of your conjecture either.

But what we can agree on is this:

Luongo's trade value is virtually nil because of the new CBA.
Luongo signed a 12 year deal to stay in the city with out clauses long after Schneider would be developed and thus traded. His out clauses start in year 5 or 7 or whatever.

Luongo was outplayed by Schneider in game 345 of the Kings series and thus Gillis informed him now Schneider was their guy or that they werent trading Schneider or they didnt know who would be the starter. Nobody knows for sure except Luongo and Gillis

Luongo demands a trade and wants to move on. This is a damning piece of evidence that Luongo should be traded. True enough

But the situation has changed. The CBA has changed and its become (in my opinion) wiser to trade Schneider due to asset management

Luongo and Schneider have had playful videos about who is number 1. Luongo wouldnt bother with it if he just wanted out of Vancouver Its about who is #1. They are making light of it.

Do you really believe that Luongo wants to leave vancouver? Or he just wants a starting job somewhere? I believe the latter . He signed a 12 year contract to stay here. If we trade Schneider which was our original intent, Luongo would be more than happy.

Cheers.
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#64 Nuxfanabroad

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:07 PM

Win it all-then, trade 'em both! See post #35 last page. It's the trade to bring us a DYNASTY!
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#65 Fibbing

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 05:31 PM

Win it all-then, trade 'em both! See post #35 last page. It's the trade to bring us a DYNASTY!


Lets win it all first then we will decide. B)
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#66 kloubek

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:55 PM

I would be ok with trading Schneider, if it was certain a couple of key things would happen:
1) Luongo would still WANT to stay here. Truly, heart and soul.


2) Everyone involved was at least ok with the idea of this happening. If Schneider was told he'd be the #1 and then we trade him, one would assume there might be ill feelings. If it becomes a free-for-all in the media and fans get all upset then that is going to put a huge burden on management and in the dressing room.

But if Scheider would get us a far better return (and it truly looks like he would) then I actually wouldn't mind keeping Luongo:
While I think while Schneider is pretty much proven by this point, I think there is still a small amount of doubt that he will consistently play at an elite level.


I personally don't know why (and never have) known what the huge fuss was about Luongo's contract. Yes, it's long. But it also secures an elite goalie (and likely will be for at least another 2-3 years) at a VERY good price for an elite goalie. Sure there are questions about his playoff performance. But you can say that about the rest of our team with the exception of a year or two as well.

I love both guys but know one has to go. Whatever is best for the team in the end is fine with me.

Edited by kloubek, 19 April 2013 - 06:56 PM.

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Biggest Canucks Fan this Side of the Rockies.

#67 Nuxfanabroad

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:00 PM

I would be ok with trading Schneider, if it was certain a couple of key things would happen:
1) Luongo would still WANT to stay here. Truly, heart and soul.


2) Everyone involved was at least ok with the idea of this happening. If Schneider was told he'd be the #1 and then we trade him, one would assume there might be ill feelings. If it becomes a free-for-all in the media and fans get all upset then that is going to put a huge burden on management and in the dressing room.

But if Scheider would get us a far better return (and it truly looks like he would) then I actually wouldn't mind keeping Luongo:
While I think while Schneider is pretty much proven by this point, I think there is still a small amount of doubt that he will consistently play at an elite level.


I personally don't know why (and never have) known what the huge fuss was about Luongo's contract. Yes, it's long. But it also secures an elite goalie (and likely will be for at least another 2-3 years) at a VERY good price for an elite goalie. Sure there are questions about his playoff performance. But you can say that about the rest of our team with the exception of a year or two as well.

I love both guys but know one has to go. Whatever is best for the team in the end is fine with me.


I'd prefer you stop sounding so reasonable/balanced; people are trying to argue here.
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#68 smurf47

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:20 PM

I give you credit for looking at the bigger picture. I give you a plus 1

Now, the actual details do start to become my opinion. I am using an educated guess but you are right. I cant prove it. But neither can you. You cant 'prove' any of your conjecture either.

But what we can agree on is this:

Luongo's trade value is virtually nil because of the new CBA.
Luongo signed a 12 year deal to stay in the city with out clauses long after Schneider would be developed and thus traded. His out clauses start in year 5 or 7 or whatever.

Luongo was outplayed by Schneider in game 345 of the Kings series and thus Gillis informed him now Schneider was their guy or that they werent trading Schneider or they didnt know who would be the starter. Nobody knows for sure except Luongo and Gillis

Luongo demands a trade and wants to move on. This is a damning piece of evidence that Luongo should be traded. True enough

But the situation has changed. The CBA has changed and its become (in my opinion) wiser to trade Schneider due to asset management

Luongo and Schneider have had playful videos about who is number 1. Luongo wouldnt bother with it if he just wanted out of Vancouver Its about who is #1. They are making light of it.

Do you really believe that Luongo wants to leave vancouver? Or he just wants a starting job somewhere? I believe the latter . He signed a 12 year contract to stay here. If we trade Schneider which was our original intent, Luongo would be more than happy.

Cheers.

First it was 7 million Schneider would ask for and now it was our intent to trade Schneider all along...You on the Canuck payroll...or have a crystal ball...all opinions with no basis in fact.
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#69 BuretoMogilny

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:23 PM

Your post again picks out one item with tweezers and ignores the other 99% of the information.

I understand your frustration as you are now using personal insults. Its a sure sign you are losing the argument.
If you are willing to calm down a bit, and just look at all the facts, then I am sure you will see it.

Luongo would have no problem staying here if Schneider was traded.


lol what did i pick out? hahahahha


your comment was pretty much just that

as i said lou lovers revisionist history - wow

they GUY WAS CRYING ABOUT NOT BEING TRADED!!!!!

and you think he wants to stay!!!???????


are you blind?
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#70 StopesisCanucks

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:45 PM

WE....

ARE.....

NOT.....

TRADING....

SCHNEIDER......







its that simple

Wow a guy who can read minds and predict the future... You must be a god ( which you are not, you're a guy sitting on a computer like everyone else), or you're wearing your schneider undies (and we all know that u must have them on with your post).

If trading Schneider improves the Nucks Im all for it (which I hope anyone who says they are true Nuck fan would probably agree with).

We have two great goalies and supposedly two great prospects in net. We shouldn't be worried who ever goes, we just need to get to 64 million & be a contender by the start of next year.
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#71 Nuxfanabroad

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 02:16 AM

The future IS EDDIE MEATBALLS LACK!

(I wanna chuckle every post game-interview!)
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#72 VanNuck

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:03 AM

It's far more realistic to try dealing Schneider than Luongo. Imagine this one:

To Edmonton: Schneider, Higgins

To Vancouver: Hemsky, Whitney, and Denis

Vancouver gets a good backup goalie and two potent performers who can revive their power play and secondary offense. Edmonton gets another good goalie and a checking-line centre. Might allow Edmonton to get back to the playoffs, but Vancouver will be a step ahead on this one.
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#73 Pears

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:11 AM

It's far more realistic to try dealing Schneider than Luongo. Imagine this one:

To Edmonton: Schneider, Higgins

To Vancouver: Hemsky, Whitney, and Denis

Vancouver gets a good backup goalie and two potent performers who can revive their power play and secondary offense. Edmonton gets another good goalie and a checking-line centre. Might allow Edmonton to get back to the playoffs, but Vancouver will be a step ahead on this one.

Words can't describe how badly we get bent over in this deal

Lets just put it this way: Take Schneider, Higgins, Hemsky, Whitney and Danis out then you have a fair deal.

Edited by Derek Roy, 20 April 2013 - 04:44 PM.

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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#74 22sedins33

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:50 AM

It's far more realistic to try dealing Schneider than Luongo. Imagine this one:

To Edmonton: Schneider, Higgins

To Vancouver: Hemsky, Whitney, and Denis

Vancouver gets a good backup goalie and two potent performers who can revive their power play and secondary offense. Edmonton gets another good goalie and a checking-line centre. Might allow Edmonton to get back to the playoffs, but Vancouver will be a step ahead on this one.


You are aware that we would be receiving Hemsky and Whitney as they are now, right? I mean, at one point in both of their careers they looked like very capable players but at this point they are both borderline players on one of the worst teams in our conference. They also both have a history of injuries. At the cost of Schneider AND Higgins this trade would just be ridiculous. This isn't even considering the fact that both Denis AND Whitney are UFAs.

Definitely the opposite of realistic. Awful awful awful
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The day has only just begun and already your mind has snapped like a dry and brittle twig...

#75 TheAce

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 08:09 AM

If we traded Schnieds to the Oilers it would be for one of there big 4. Both Hall and Eberle just re-signed for 6 mil each and it wont be long before RNH and Yak are in the same boat. The oilers would be shooting themselves if they tried keeping all 4 as that would be 40% of the cap hit ( assuming it stays where its at)

Since Hall/Eberle/RNH are playing on a line together I could see Nail being the odd man out and the most likely to be had. Gillis would have to really do the pro vs con with that type of deal. Handing an offensive threatening team like Edmonton a goalie like Schnieder could be a division suicide as he would instantly make them a playoff team however we would be given a possible future franchise player in Yakupov and great start to giving us both a goal scorer now and a player for our future once the twins have left. ( Will take some of the sting off of losing players like Grabner and Hodgeson )


As others have said, our return for Luongo will not be great which is sad because Luongo is a very good goalie. Schnieder is the better goalie but the return for him would be outstanding. So what would make this team better ?

Keep Schnieder and add a couple of draft picks or mid range prospects

Keep Luongo and add a top player in return for Schnieder
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#76 wizeman

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 09:24 AM

First it was 7 million Schneider would ask for and now it was our intent to trade Schneider all along...You on the Canuck payroll...or have a crystal ball...all opinions with no basis in fact.


The intent was to trade Schneider . thus the 12 year luongo extension. I dont think you will find many to deny this.

The 7 mil dollar 'guess' on my part is just an educated guess. Both are what I believe. Its not one or another. Try stating your own opinion instead of using flimsy attack logic to try to invalidate others.

We have a good thread going here. Lets keep it classy.

Speaking of Schneider threads, there is also on up on HF boards about buying Luongo out or trading Schneider. I guess they are even going a step further than we are.
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#77 smurf47

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:59 AM

The intent was to trade Schneider . thus the 12 year luongo extension. I dont think you will find many to deny this.

The 7 mil dollar 'guess' on my part is just an educated guess. Both are what I believe. Its not one or another. Try stating your own opinion instead of using flimsy attack logic to try to invalidate others.

We have a good thread going here. Lets keep it classy.

Speaking of Schneider threads, there is also on up on HF boards about buying Luongo out or trading Schneider. I guess they are even going a step further than we are.

Ok, suppose the Canucks do pay Schneider 7 million. I'd rather pay an elite puck stopping goaltender than an elite forward or d'man that kind of money. Trading Lou or dumping his 5.3 Million salary gets us an elite player and keeps the better goalie. Schneider is better over the last 3 seasons, is better technically and management sees that. They have opted to trade Lou in favour of Schneider and better hockey minds than ours have made that choice. Fans on here argue it ad nauseum, but thems the facts. People here would rather argue than agree. They are the ones without an ounce of goaltending experience or knowledge, but opinionated like all get out,lLaughable on one hand and painful on the other. Their only answer to the Lou threat is to find a way to trade Schneider.
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#78 smurf47

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:05 AM

how's Schneider a sure-thing when this is really his first season playing majority of the game?? was Mason or Raycroft a sure thing when they won the calder? they both definitely have the skill.. but it never fully developed. Schneider have all the tools and potential.. but he's far from being a sure thing until he plays multiple 82 game seasons.

Schneider is the sure thing the same as Gretzky , Crosby and others. They show superiority, advanced skill levels at all levels in their development and its a safe but calculated guess that they will excel at the next high level. Schneider is at the top in technical ability, positional play and mental focus. Its not much of a stretch to believe he is a sure thing based on history and current play. Experience tells me that neither mason or Raycroft have Schneider's skills or ability.
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#79 canuckfan85

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:33 AM

It's far more realistic to try dealing Schneider than Luongo. Imagine this one:

To Edmonton: Schneider, Higgins

To Vancouver: Hemsky, Whitney, and Denis

Vancouver gets a good backup goalie and two potent performers who can revive their power play and secondary offense. Edmonton gets another good goalie and a checking-line centre. Might allow Edmonton to get back to the playoffs, but Vancouver will be a step ahead on this one.


do u mean potent potables???
are u an edmonton troll???
get out please
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#80 wizeman

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 04:15 PM

Ok, suppose the Canucks do pay Schneider 7 million. I'd rather pay an elite puck stopping goaltender than an elite forward or d'man that kind of money. Trading Lou or dumping his 5.3 Million salary gets us an elite player and keeps the better goalie. Schneider is better over the last 3 seasons, is better technically and management sees that. They have opted to trade Lou in favour of Schneider and better hockey minds than ours have made that choice. Fans on here argue it ad nauseum, but thems the facts. People here would rather argue than agree. They are the ones without an ounce of goaltending experience or knowledge, but opinionated like all get out,lLaughable on one hand and painful on the other. Their only answer to the Lou threat is to find a way to trade Schneider.


I dunno dude. I would like to think I have a good head on my shoulders. I am not a professional GM and I am stating my opinion. I do believe what I am writing though.

To trade Luongo would be for literally nothing. In fact, teams have consistently told Gillis he has to eat long term garbage salary in return. this defeats the point. Our owner is not just going to spend 30 million dollars to give to Luongo for free to buy the guy out. That is crazy. You buy out a guy with a year or two on his contract. Not 9.

Finally, unfortunately for us, the new CBA requires us to eat Luongo's cap hit until its over. Regardless of whether he retires or not. If we trade him, we still have to eat half of the cap hit. 2.65mil per year until the contract runs out.

So in summary, trade Luongo for nothing , or buy him out which wont happen, and eat his cap hit regardless. Why would anyone choose on of those options. They are terrible. The goalie would have to be literally unable to stop a beach ball to reach for one of these bad choices.

So, since the best choice is to keep Luongo and play him compared to the alternatives, we have to trade Cory Schneider , whom we could get a nice package for.

Its not that hard to figure out. Disagree all you want but the logic is sound.
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#81 canucks_dynasty

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:07 PM

From a business point of view. Trading Schneider yields the most benefit (asset management). You can get more in return and Luongo in net will still get the Nucks to the playoffs. Playoffs generate revenue directly for the owner. How far into the playoffs...who knows?!?
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#82 ForsbergTheGreat

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:17 PM

Words can't describe how badly we get bent over in this deal

Lets just put it this way: Take Schneider, Higgins, Hemsky, Whitney and Danis out then you have a fair deal.


Hemsky 5 mil cap hit.. only plays half the season
Whitney 4 mil cap hit... Healthy scratch on one of the worst teams in the league.

Some how we are supposed to get under the dropping cap hit by adding 9 mil. We also lose higgins, and are goalie for the future..This in no way puts us over the edge to win a cup and completely leaves us out to dry with the future.

Cory for eberle would be starting points to build a trade around. Also Dubnyk isn't as bad as people make him out to be. He is left out to hang more than our goalies are.

Edited by ForsbergTheGreat, 20 April 2013 - 10:19 PM.

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#83 canucks_dynasty

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:24 PM

If a trade is with EDM, I hope MG would go for Eberle or Yakupov. Nucks need a dynamic explosive winger. If it's Gagner then it's gotta be packaged with their 1st.
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#84 ForsbergTheGreat

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:24 PM

Schneider is the sure thing the same as Gretzky , Crosby and others. They show superiority, advanced skill levels at all levels in their development and its a safe but calculated guess that they will excel at the next high level. Schneider is at the top in technical ability, positional play and mental focus. Its not much of a stretch to believe he is a sure thing based on history and current play. Experience tells me that neither mason or Raycroft have Schneider's skills or ability.


No no first it's cory is a not proven enough to be a number one goalie, . He doesn't have the experience. Now it's he will be a one hit wonder. Wizeman come on, pick your facts and stick with them.


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