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U.S. Gun Control Bill on Background Checks Defeated in the Senate


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#61 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:04 PM

Sure looks that way.

No right to bear arms and no problem.


What frame of reference do you have to be commenting on the US Constitution to begin with...and what part of "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." is so difficult to understand? This is not a personal right to bear arms, as far as I see it...but a COLLECTIVE right to bear arms..in case of invasion, at least according to the time period in which the Constitution was written. Now..I'm not going to say it doesn't need rewording or some sort of clarification..but the Constitution is as I said not the issue here..the issue here is the interpretation that too many freaking live by...and apparently that's their own private interpretation of it...instead of what it ACTUALLY says. Now..I'm excusing myself from this hornet's nest and I'm not engaging you any further on this. If you wish to take that as a "victory"...knock yourself out. I've got better things to do.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#62 Wetcoaster

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:04 PM

Score a point? This is a discussion forum, not a sporting event.

Tell that to Scott Hartnell's Mane - he attempted to do so and flubbed the chance badly.
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#63 inane

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:07 PM

Tell that to Scott Hartnell's Mane - he attempted to do so and flubbed the chance badly.


I'm telling it to you, who apparently enjoys 'beating down' other posters.

And then ironically posts about not breaking board rules when you've done the same thing numerous times.

#64 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:09 PM

How can you tell when a lawyer is lying? When his lips are moving.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#65 inane

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:12 PM

As for the topic, I don't think anything will change until one of the kids of these NRA guys gets mowed down. It's similar to the gay marriage issue. Until people had it impact them directly, they didn't think it was an issue. Once it is in your face, it makes you think twice about it.

#66 MrsCanuck

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:19 PM

I can't even express my disbelief. Wow.
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#67 Wetcoaster

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:33 PM

What frame of reference do you have to be commenting on the US Constitution to begin with...and what part of "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." is so difficult to understand? This is not a personal right to bear arms, as far as I see it...but a COLLECTIVE right to bear arms..in case of invasion, at least according to the time period in which the Constitution was written. Now..I'm not going to say it doesn't need rewording or some sort of clarification..but the Constitution is as I said not the issue here..the issue here is the interpretation that too many freaking live by...and apparently that's their own private interpretation of it...instead of what it ACTUALLY says. Now..I'm excusing myself from this hornet's nest and I'm not engaging you any further on this. If you wish to take that as a "victory"...knock yourself out. I've got better things to do.

Seriously??? You question my ability to read the law even from a foreign jurisdiction?

You make it too easy. There is no challenge at all.

Man this is like shooting fish in a barrel:

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What is my frame of reference? Well I can read and comprehend court decisions, even those from exotic foreign jurisdictions such as the US of A.

And what is your frame of reference?

And in this case your Supreme Court says you do not have a clue about this issue. In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) the majority stated clearly that:


Held:


1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.

http://www.supremeco...7pdf/07-290.pdf

The Heller decision did not address the question of whether the Second Amendment extended beyond federal enclaves to the states, which was addressed later by SCOTUS in McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025 (2010) and was extended to cover all jurisdictions with the US.
http://www.supremeco...pdf/08-1521.pdf

And unless the US legal system has suddenly changed without any notice, decisions from the US Supreme Court are not a "private interpretation" but rather a public and binding declaration of what the law is and it is binding on all within the jurisdiction of the US of A.

So... you are wrong - again.

My frame of reference is better than your frame of reference I guess. eh? I will take this as another victory in an unbroken line of same vis-à-vis our continuing debates on any number of issues.
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#68 Perfect From Now On

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:35 PM

The problem runs far deeper than gun control. Gun control is a bandaid that masks or hides the real problems. Humans keep killing each other, and this has happened forever.


I agree that gun control is a bandaid, but is a necessary one none the less. A big reason for the high murder rates in the US besides lax gun laws is their militarized society that glorifies violence and killing of others, and the way in which the country treats the poor. So many kids are growing up with little hope for a successful future and are drawn into gangs or resort to robberies and other crimes. Of course many people will say they just need to work harder.
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#69 Wetcoaster

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:35 PM

I'm telling it to you, who apparently enjoys 'beating down' other posters.

And then ironically posts about not breaking board rules when you've done the same thing numerous times.

It is called prevailing in a debate. If you do not have the stomach for robust debate then perhaps you are in the wrong place.
To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

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#70 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:42 PM

My frame of reference is that I am ACTUALLY a United States citizen who pays his god damned taxes and participates in voting. And since I am in fact a US citizen whose life is ACTUALLY affected directly by this and by the Constitution, I'd say my frame of reference is a hell of a lot more relevant than yours is. We don't jump in with OUR two cents when there's an issue with your Constitution...YOUR politics...why don't you do us the same courtesy and stop presuming that just because you have a familairity with our Constitution it gives you any cause to assume that your opinion is worth more on the matter than someone who actually LIVES here. Your opinion means jack in the long run, because you don't have to abide by our Constitution. However...you love to hear yourself talk, so I highly doubt that fact really means anything to you anyway.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#71 Hobble

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:48 PM

I thought the majority of Americans wanted background checks now?!?

#72 J.R.

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:49 PM

We don't jump in with OUR two cents when there's an issue with your Constitution...YOUR politics.


This thinking always make me curious. Why is it that Americans have such a strong reaction to others discussing it's country's politics anyway?

I fail to see how America's disinterest any anything other than itself is any reason for other countries to not have interest in or discussion of American politics. If Americans want to offer their $0.02 on other countries politics they'd more often than not likely find a welcome willingness to debate. My experience is that few of them care to show an interest.

Edited by J.R., 17 April 2013 - 04:53 PM.

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#73 canucks since 77

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:53 PM

Quietly puts envelopes and pressure cooker away forever.
Politeness is the first step to respect!

#74 ronthecivil

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:54 PM

Score a point? This is a discussion forum, not a sporting event.

Attached Files


Edited by ronthecivil, 17 April 2013 - 04:58 PM.


#75 Wetcoaster

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:56 PM

My frame of reference is that I am ACTUALLY a United States citizen who pays his god damned taxes and participates in voting. And since I am in fact a US citizen whose life is ACTUALLY affected directly by this and by the Constitution, I'd say my frame of reference is a hell of a lot more relevant than yours is. We don't jump in with OUR two cents when there's an issue with your Constitution...YOUR politics...why don't you do us the same courtesy and stop presuming that just because you have a familairity with our Constitution it gives you any cause to assume that your opinion is worth more on the matter than someone who actually LIVES here. Your opinion means jack in the long run, because you don't have to abide by our Constitution. However...you love to hear yourself talk, so I highly doubt that fact really means anything to you anyway.

Unfortunately your frame of reference does not appear to take into account what your Supreme Court of the United States has decreed as to the interpretation of your Constitution. In other words you are ignorant and uninformed on a subject on which you claim to be instructing me.

It is not my opinion - it is the law of your land as propounded by SCOTUS.

BTW I am not talking, I am writing.
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#76 Wetcoaster

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:58 PM

I thought the majority of Americans wanted background checks now?!?

According to President Obama 90% of Americans are in favour - an overwhelming majority.
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#77 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:00 PM

This thinking always make me curious. Why is it that Americans have such a strong reaction to others discussing it's country's politics anyway?

I fail to see how America's disinterest any anything other than itself is any reason for other countries to not have interest in or discussion of American politics. If Americans want to offer their $0.02 on other countries politics they'd more often than not likely find a welcome willingness to debate. My experience is that few of them care to show an interest.


I don't object so much to the discussion of American politics as much as I do some big mouth Canadian lawyer telling me that even as a citizen of the US my opinion on the state of American politics means less than his does.I pay my taxes, I vote (Green mostly) and I abide by the Constitution of the United States...and because it affects me and my family directly as US citizens my opinion most CERTAINLY matters more than what some outsider has to say about it. He's been condescending for a good part of this discussion and I'm frankly fed up with the "holier than thou" attitude people in other countries have towards the US. That's what I object to. And hey...if you guys object to our objections of you discussing our politics...maybe you ought to just mind your own business until it actually affects you directly.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#78 Wetcoaster

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:03 PM

This thinking always make me curious. Why is it that Americans have such a strong reaction to others discussing it's country's politics anyway?

I fail to see how America's disinterest any anything other than itself is any reason for other countries to not have interest in or discussion of American politics. If Americans want to offer their $0.02 on other countries politics they'd more often than not likely find a welcome willingness to debate. My experience is that few of them care to show an interest.

In this case it is not politics... it is law.

And the law is clearly contrary to what Scott Hartnell's Mane claimed it to be as I pointed out in providing the actual source decisions.

Pretty hard to argue with the clear words of the US Supreme Court who are the final arbiters on the meaning and interpretation of the US Constitution.
To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

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#79 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:04 PM

Unfortunately your frame of reference does not appear to take into account what your Supreme Court of the United States has decreed as to the interpretation of your Constitution. In other words you are ignorant and uninformed on a subject on which you claim to be instructing me.

It is not my opinion - it is the law of your land as propounded by SCOTUS.

BTW I am not talking, I am writing.


First of all, Jack...nowhere is it written that I must always agree with what the SCOTUS says so stuff it. Second of all...I beg to differ on the ignorant and uninformed part. I actually paid attention in high school and I'm WELL aware of what the Constitution says and what it doesn't say I happen to disagree with the Supreme Court's ruling on the Second Amendment. And guess what? I'm entitled to the right to disagree.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#80 Wetcoaster

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:05 PM

I don't object so much to the discussion of American politics as much as I do some big mouth Canadian lawyer telling me that even as a citizen of the US my opinion on the state of American politics means less than his does.I pay my taxes, I vote (Green mostly) and I abide by the Constitution of the United States...and because it affects me and my family directly as US citizens my opinion most CERTAINLY matters more than what some outsider has to say about it. He's been condescending for a good part of this discussion and I'm frankly fed up with the "holier than thou" attitude people in other countries have towards the US. That's what I object to. And hey...if you guys object to our objections of you discussing our politics...maybe you ought to just mind your own business until it actually affects you directly.

You attempted to tell me what the law was in the US and you were clearly wrong as I set out with the source cases.

There is no opinion involved.
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#81 Wetcoaster

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:08 PM

First of all, Jack...nowhere is it written that I must always agree with what the SCOTUS says so stuff it. Second of all...I beg to differ on the ignorant and uninformed part. I actually paid attention in high school and I'm WELL aware of what the Constitution says and what it doesn't say I happen to disagree with the Supreme Court's ruling on the Second Amendment. And guess what? I'm entitled to the right to disagree.

Except that is not what you did. You tried to claim what the law was and you were wrong... yet again.
To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

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#82 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:10 PM

Jesus it's like arguing with my bedroom wall. I'm done here for now man. Buzz Killington....i'm walking away now. There's another "victory" for you...since you seem to be keeping "score" for some absurd reason.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#83 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:12 PM

Except that is not what you did. You tried to claim what the law was and you were wrong... yet again.


Yeah...actually it was...see that phrase "as far as I see it" in that post? That means that it's my opinion. Maybe you need to take some Reading Comprehension classes.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#84 Wetcoaster

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:14 PM

Yeah...actually it was...see that phrase "as far as I see it" in that post? That means that it's my opinion. Maybe you need to take some Reading Comprehension classes.

You obviously do not see very far at all. Black letter law courtesy of SCOTUS.
To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#85 Wetcoaster

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:17 PM

Jesus it's like arguing with my bedroom wall. I'm done here for now man. Buzz Killington....i'm walking away now. There's another "victory" for you...since you seem to be keeping "score" for some absurd reason.

"Jesus"??? That is most assuredly not my name. "Sir" would be an appropriate and sufficient honorific.

Always a good idea to walk away and figure out how things went so badly off the rails for you... yet again.
To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#86 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:33 PM

All right listen I've about had it with you old man. You sit there all smug and presume you know a lot more about the US than you actually do and you bait me and bait me until you think I'm going to go on a rant and get suspended again because YOU DO NOT SEE ANYTHING BUT BLACK AND WHITE. It is impossible for you to see anything beyond the letter of the law...and just because you have this bizarre sense of entitlement because of your longevity as a poster here and you are seemingly the "CDC Golden Boy" I'm sure many have hesitated to say anything in response to your inane, broken-record boring, lawyer speak...does NOT make your opinion any more relevant than mine...is that clear? You sit there and you act condescending towards me because you feel you CAN...well I've got news for you bub. Just because you are one of the "CDC untouchables" apparently it is not going to stop me from saying what I have to say. You're nothing more than a stuffy, trite, old, boring blowhard one-note pony. You comment derisively towards anyone that attempts to express opinions outside of the letter of the law...then you make asinine statements regarding your frame of reference vs mine, even though I'm actually sitting here in the US right now by dim light ruining my eyes responding to your crap...and you're sitting in BC, in Canada, in another country sitting there and telling me your "familiarity" with the Constitution of the United States somehow outranks my citizenship...my awareness of domestic issues here in this country, 30 years worth...I went to a crappy high school here in America that gave more of a crap about athletics than academics and I STILL passed with a 3.8 GPA. I've lived here in the intolerant South not exactly by choice for 30 years. I've experienced first hand the ignorance and bigotry that you only READ about. Your opinion, as it relates to American politics....being an OUTSIDER...means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...do you understand? Nothing. And it doesn't matter how many posts you make here parroting the law and being woefully uninformed about how it actually is here in America...that will not change...unless you move down here and become a citizen and deal with the crap first hand yourself. And THAT is the bottom line.

Edited by Scott Hartnell's Mane, 17 April 2013 - 05:34 PM.

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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.





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