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Becoming a lawyer.....Wetcoaster?


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#91 Pouria

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 11:54 AM

It's a super competitive field.

Somebody I know applied prior to UBC last year (it was their first choice), and despite having a cumulative GPA of 3.8 and scoring in the 98% percentile of the LSAT (UBC weighs 50/50) they did not get accepted. Granted, there was many other schools that they were accepted into, but they had their hopes set on getting into UBC and not getting in put a pretty big hitch in their plans.
I'm currently majoring in Criminology at SFU, and intend on going to UBC Faculty of Law after I complete my undergrad. Haven't done that well so far (just above a 3.0 GPA), and I know that I am really going to have to buckle down starting my 3rd year next fall.


UBC is overrated. People should just apply everywhere and see where they get accepted. Not getting into UBC isn't the end of the world and there are other schools outside of BC that have a better reputation and better quality of education than UBC. I'd say as long as you get your degree, certificate or doctorate, its all good.
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#92 Pouria

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 11:59 AM

Don't bother becoming a lawyer, according to Wet you'll make less than a successful plumber.


I think dentists on average have a higher salary than lawyers. I know a friend who just got his license and after getting a job as an associate, he bought a Masserati for two months of work. He told me that he made $5000 for a dental procedure that took him about one hour to do. He is seriously stacking paper.
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#93 taxi

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:17 PM

Don't bother becoming a lawyer, according to Wet you'll make less than a successful plumber.


Successful plumbers make a lot of money.
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#94 J.R.

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:27 PM

Successful plumbers make a lot of money.


Indeed!
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#95 Wetcoaster

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:28 PM

Don't bother becoming a lawyer, according to Wet you'll make less than a successful plumber.

Even in Vancouver it takes about 5 years call to hit the 100,000 per year mark on average and the earnings are much less outside of Vancouver. And recently earnings have dropped.

If you are with one of the big national Vancouver firms (a small percentage of practising lawyers in BC) then you will make much more but there are a lot of lawyers making between $50,000 and $75,000 per year.

You have to consider the amount of hours that a lawyer works to earn their income. 60 to 80 hours per week is the norm which is why many lawyers end up working as prosecutors or government lawyers or go on to other careers - keeps the hours manageable. My usual workday was 12 hours per day M-F and around 10 hours on a weekends. And I also did a lot of business travel.

As one of my law profs cautioned us on the first day of law school - the practise of law suits compulsive workaholics. The burn out rate is very high and it is pure hell on personal relationships. I worked for large downtown firm for several years and of the 80 or so lawyers in the firm there were only a handful not on a second, third or even fourth marriage. One of my closest friends going back to my undergrad days is an addictions counsellor and he has a disproportionate number of lawyers as clients. Law is a tough slog because in effect what you do assume your clients' problems..



Also if you are running your own firm you have employees and overhead and managing the business cuts into the amount of billable hours...
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#96 J.R.

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:32 PM

Even in Vancouver it takes about 5 years call to hit the 100,000 per year mark on average and the earnings are much less outside of Vancouver. And recently earnings have dropped.

If you are with one of the big national Vancouver firms (a small percentage of practising lawyers in BC) then you will make much more but there are a lot of lawyers making between $50,000 and $75,000 per year.

You have to consider the amount of hours that a lawyer works to earn their income. 60 to 80 hours per week is the norm which is why many lawyers end up working as prosecutors or government lawyers or go on to other careers - keeps the hours manageable. My usual workday was 12 hours per day M-F and around 10 hours on a weekends. And I also did a lot of business travel.

As one of my law profs cautioned us on the first day of law school - the practise of law suits compulsive workaholics. The burn out rate is very high and it is pure hell on personal relationships. I worked for large downtown firm for several years and of the 80 or so lawyers in the firm there were only a handful not on a second, third or even fourth marriage. One of my closest friends going back to my undergrad days is an addictions counsellor and he has a disproportionate number of lawyers as clients. Law is a tough slog because in effect what you do assume your clients' problems..



Also if you are running your own firm you have employees and overhead and managing the business cuts into the amount of billable hours...


Sounds like a dream job... :sick:

Like I said, become a plumber. Also keep your hands cleaner! :lol:

Edited by J.R., 22 April 2013 - 12:33 PM.

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#97 Wetcoaster

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:35 PM

Sounds like a dream job... :sick:

Many reasons there is high drop put rate in the profession in the fist five years after call. A lot of people cannot handle the pressure. Some thrive on it.

Me I loved it and but for my medical issues i would happily be doing the job today.
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#98 Pouria

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:46 PM

Sounds like a dream job... :sick:

Like I said, become a plumber. Also keep your hands cleaner! :lol:


A plumber?? There aren't any other better jobs out there?
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#99 Pouria

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:48 PM

Many reasons there is high drop put rate in the profession in the fist five years after call. A lot of people cannot handle the pressure. Some thrive on it.

Me I loved it and but for my medical issues i would happily be doing the job today.


I guess you have the passion for it. If you don't have a passion for that job then I assume it would be like living in hell and that goes for any job.

Edited by Pouria, 22 April 2013 - 12:49 PM.

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#100 Troygamblefan

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 01:02 PM

You make more doing porn....Look good and do good....uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhyeah!
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#101 Pouria

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 01:52 PM

You make more doing porn....Look good and do good....uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhyeah!


Yeah, and you make a killing doing drug dealing....uhhhhhhhyeah!

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#102 The Arrogant Worms

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:09 PM

I'd prefer to be a doctor or a dentist rather than being a lawyer. Much more rewarding profession and you make a positive contribution to society by helping people with their health problems. I guess its different strokes for different folks.


Exactly...I am going to be nothing but supportive of him in whatever he ends up wanting to do.
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#103 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:11 PM

There is many more unethical lawyers than ethical.



I think you have that backwards. There are undoubtedly unethical lawyers, but they would be largely in the minority.

I personally know about a dozen lawyers and none of them match the sterotypical "sleazy" lawyer that seems to be such a prevalent part of public perception.

Over my years on this board, I have taken a few good natured digs at Wetcoaster, but always with tongue firmly planted in cheek. IMHO, the vast majority of lawyers are good people.
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#104 J.R.

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:17 PM

the vast majority of lawyers are good people.


Whoa! Let's not get carried away now! :lol:
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#105 Wetcoaster

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:20 PM

I think you have that backwards. There are undoubtedly unethical lawyers, but they would be largely in the minority.

I personally know about a dozen lawyers and none of them match the sterotypical "sleazy" lawyer that seems to be such a prevalent part of public perception.

Over my years on this board, I have taken a few good natured digs at Wetcoaster, but always with tongue firmly planted in cheek. IMHO, the vast majority of lawyers are good people.

The overwhelming majority of lawyers take their oath and obligations very seriously and for those that do not I have no issue with them being dealt with severely.
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#106 Tru_Knyte

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:34 PM

Many reasons there is high drop put rate in the profession in the fist five years after call. A lot of people cannot handle the pressure. Some thrive on it.

Me I loved it and but for my medical issues i would happily be doing the job today.


Do you believe there's a difference in stress levels depending on what area of law you practice? (e.g. Corporate vs. criminal or family vs. civil suits?)
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#107 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:04 PM

That would be incorrect.

http://www.lawsociet...egal-Profession


Say what you like wetcoaster but most people do not trust lawyers and hold your profession in contempt. lawyers are parasites that feed off society , the world would be a better place if there was less lawyers.

Law professor Ann Althouse recently observed that lawyers are the only people about whom it's considered socially acceptable to joke, "People like you should all be dead."

Most of us in polite society wouldn't feel comfortable saying that to a gay man, or a black person, or a Jew. (Most of us wouldn't even want to.) But telling a lawyer to his face the old joke about 10,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean being "a good start" is perfectly okay.

Lawyers play an important role in our society, and I don't nbelieve they deserve to be singled out for this kind of animosity. Yet time and again, an incident will arise that reminds me why, justly or not, they often are. It's unfortunate that the arrogance of a few lawyers can engender hatred for the entire legal profession, many members of whom are protecting our rights, seeking justice for the downtrodden, and reining in an overreaching legislature. But it can.

Monster Cable is a company that makes speaker cable and audiovisual interconnects. Their brand name is important to them. (In fact, they recently spent $6 million for the naming rights to San Francisco's Candlestick Park stadium. It's now Monster Park.) And they've apparently decided to sue every business that uses the word "Monster" in any way.

Companies sued by Monster Cable include:

-- The Discovery Channel, for its show "Monster Garage"

-- The Walt Disney Company, for the movie "Monsters, Inc."

-- Monster.com, the online job-hunting service

On top of all that, Monster Cable went after Bally Gaming for its "Monster Slots" slot machines, and almost almost sued the Chicago Bears for calling their players as the "Monsters of the Midway", a nickname dating back to the 1930's. It's also thinking about going after the Monster Seats in Fenway Park.

Now, I used to be a lawyer myself at one point. (I quit because I hated the work.) I never specialized in trademark law, but I remember a few points from law school.

First (and any lawyers out there, feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken), a given trademark generally applies only to a certain class of product (or service, in which case it's called a service mark). That's why there can be an Apple Bank, Apple Rental Cars, Apple Furniture, and Apple Computer.

Second, the key element of the test for trademark infringement is, loosely speaking, whether there is a likelihood that customers will confuse the origin of the two companies' goods or services. In other words, will people think Apple Computer is the company behind Apple Furniture's furniture?

How similar do two companies' marks have to be before courts will find that a likelihood of such confusion exists? Well, the criteria are hard enough to meet that none of the "Apple" companies I mentioned above is in legal trouble with the others. Yet Monster Cable's attorneys were apparently concerned that people might mix them up with, say, a movie company or a job-hunting website.

And, presumably because the costs of litigation are so prohibitive, in each of the four cases mentioned above, Monster Cable either reached a confidential settlement with the company it attacked, when by all appearances its claims should have been laughed out of court.

All this is depressing enough, but, as several newspapers report, now it gets really nasty. Apparently tired of suing huge companies with the resources to fight back, it would seem that Monster Cable looked around for smaller outfits it could more easily intimidate, and it found a few:

-- Snow Monsters, a tiny company that makes instructional ski videos for children

-- MonsterVintage.com, another tiny company, which sells vintage clothing

Needless to say, small companies like these lack the funds to weather a months-long legal battle. Unless they can win a declaratory judgment (i.e., have the court tell Monster Cable to get bent before any long, expensive litigation ensues), they will probably have to either change the names of their businesses, or let Monster Cable wet its beak: Its "licensing packages" demand as much as $1,000 a year plus 1 percent of gross sales, in exchange for the right to use the word "Monster".

As a former lawyer, I know it's important to consider both sides of any dispute. So, what's Monster Cable's take on the situation?

"We've spent millions of dollars as well as countless hours building our brand," says an in-house attorney. Company founder Noel Lee adds, "We have an obligation to protect our trademark; otherwise we'd lose it."

Given that trademark law specifically provides for the coexistence of similar trademarks for different classes of products, Lee's argument is disingenuous.

But if Monster Cable is really concerned about protecting its trademark, it could start by protecting it from a consumer backlash against its bullying, strongarm tactics. Its legal team apparently believes that ski videos for kids and an old clothing shop represent a real threat. That it's necessary to crush little companies with no relevance to its business at all.

That's why people hate lawyers.
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#108 Gross-Misconduct

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:05 PM

I have nothing against most lawyers. A lot of them deal with the technical stuff that us average folk have no clue about. I think it's the defense lawyers that most people are talking about when they say they hate them or think all lawyers are unethical.

Personally I did a happy dance when one of OJ Simpson's lawyers bit the dust awhile back. Johnny Cochrane knew his client was a murderer (as all OJ's lawyers did) but was just doing his job in letting OJ get away with murder. Now he's dead. Rot in Hell Johnny :)
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#109 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:12 PM

The overwhelming majority of lawyers take their oath and obligations very seriously and for those that do not I have no issue with them being dealt with severely.



How do you know this ? have you spoken to the overwhelming majority of lawyers in your own country , i think not .

Prove what you say is true
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#110 Wetcoaster

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:13 PM

Do you believe there's a difference in stress levels depending on what area of law you practice? (e.g. Corporate vs. criminal or family vs. civil suits?)

Not really according to my friend who deals with such matters through Interlock.
http://www.lawsociet...or-B.C.-lawyers
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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#111 Wetcoaster

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:14 PM

How do you know this ? have you spoken to the overwhelming majority of lawyers in your own country , i think not .

Prove what you say is true

It is based upon almost 30 years of personal experience.

What is your experience in dealing with BC lawyers?

Prove it is untrue.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#112 Wetcoaster

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:18 PM

Say what you like wetcoaster but most people do not trust lawyers and hold your profession in contempt. lawyers are parasites that feed off society , the world would be a better place if there was less lawyers.

That may be so... until they need a lawyer.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#113 pibroch

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:24 PM

Just wanted to chime in, if you're having difficulty finding a job with a degree the problem is most likely you, not what you majored in (barring a specialty area like engineering).

Um I think if you can't find a job with an engineering degree the problem is definitely you lol.
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#114 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:35 PM

It is based upon almost 30 years of personal experience.

What is your experience in dealing with BC lawyers?

Prove it is untrue.


That is what you lawyers do best is it not , throw a statement out there that is not true and wait and see what happens.
The burden of proof is with you , you made the claim , now back it up with some tangible evidence.
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#115 prana16

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:36 PM

Let me think about that...


Thinking...



Thinking...



Thinking...



Thinking...



Thinking...



Thinking...



Thinking...



Thinking...



Nope, I will continue posting as I have for the past number of years. I do not spam.

If you believe that how I post violates the Board Rules, then feel free to report my posting style. Otherwise keep your unsolicited advice on how I should post to yourself.

You have not had your knuckles rapped often enough by the Mods for this sort of thing in the past?


You don't follow your own advice do you.

You most certainly do spam you are a shining definition of it.

Now go tell the mods to scold me again like you always do, your wee little ego just can't take disagreement.
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#116 Wetcoaster

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:38 PM

I have nothing against most lawyers. A lot of them deal with the technical stuff that us average folk have no clue about. I think it's the defense lawyers that most people are talking about when they say they hate them or think all lawyers are unethical.

Personally I did a happy dance when one of OJ Simpson's lawyers bit the dust awhile back. Johnny Cochrane knew his client was a murderer (as all OJ's lawyers did) but was just doing his job in letting OJ get away with murder. Now he's dead. Rot in Hell Johnny :)

Criminal defence lawyers have a tough job and one I do not envy. However someone has to do it because our supreme law via the Charter demands it.

The Canons of Legal Ethics sets out the parameters:
http://www.lawsociet...egal-Profession

And Canadian Lawyer did an article about two years back - "So you wanna be a criminal lawyer, eh?"


It’s long been held that criminal defence work is one of the tougher areas of law in which to carve a niche. Paid summer student placements are scarce, and it can be a real uphill battle to find an articling position. The quandary has worsened in the past decade with dwindling legal aid budgets. Established criminal defence lawyers have had a hard enough time keeping a roof over their own heads, without propping up a student whose tasks are restricted by law society rules.


Meanwhile, the few students who do find an articling spot can forget the cushy working environment afforded by most full-service firm placements, and face the prospect of a career that may hinge on high-volume, and often high-stress, legal aid work. To top it off, defence counsel are often vilified by the general public, viewed more as impediments to justice than defenders of the public’s constitutional rights.

...

Recent law graduates like Hechter are a relief to people like Montreal lawyer Isabel Schurman, who is vice chairwoman of the Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers and a sessional lecturer at McGill University’s Faculty of Law. She suggests this much-maligned area of practice has been given a bad rap over the years, and more students should open their eyes to a career in criminal defence. “It’s a shame that the field is so misunderstood,” says Schurman. “I think it’s a shame that people never realize the important role that defence counsel play until they, or someone in their family, needs representation, and then realize that it’s not simply this television or movie image of defence counsel. We are in fact the watchdogs for the fairness in our system of criminal justice, and without a strong defence bar, the whole system suffers, and so does the citizen’s right to be left alone by the state.”

http://www.canadianl...-lawyer-eh.html


And when you are dealing with a notorious accused it can wreak havoc on your personal and professional life as Bob Shantz leaned when representing Clifford Robert Olson. Bob was pressured to take the case as defence counsel by the BC Attorney General to make sure that everything was done by the book and that down the road there would be no successful appeals. And he did his job so well he was later castigated for it.


The effect defending Olson had on Shantz’s life was staggering. The heavy price was described years later during the Pickton pig farm trial as “the Shantz factor.”


As a lawyer, Shantz had always managed to keep the evidence of each case separate from his personal feelings, in airtight containers that never leaked their gruesome details into his personal life.


With Olson, that was hard. There were times when he wanted to throttle Olson, moments when he thought: “If these were my kids, I’d killed the SOB.”


The public, however, didn’t see Shantz as a lawyer just doing his job, they questioned whether he was human, equated him to the killer.


By the time the $100,000 “cash-for-bodies” deal became public, Shantz was receiving death threats and hate mail, including one smeared with faeces, and his children were targeted in school.


http://www.mapleridg.../131294949.html
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#117 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:39 PM

That may be so... until they need a lawyer.


I have never needed a lawyer , in fact my partner and i have taken 2 lawyers to task and had them punished , i reiterate lawyers are parasites and most people feel this way about them.
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#118 Wetcoaster

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:42 PM

I have never needed a lawyer , in fact my partner and i have taken 2 lawyers to task and had them punished , i reiterate lawyers are parasites and most people feel this way about them.

You may.

I have had other experiences. Many of my clients have become friends.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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#119 Wetcoaster

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:43 PM

That is what you lawyers do best is it not , throw a statement out there that is not true and wait and see what happens.
The burden of proof is with you , you made the claim , now back it up with some tangible evidence.

You have made all sorts of claims with no proof other than your limited anecdotal experiences and in a foreign legal system. And many of your claims have been debunked.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#120 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:51 PM

You have made all sorts of claims with no proof other than your limited anecdotal experiences and in a foreign legal system. And many of your claims have been debunked.


You made a statement , i have called you on it and asked you to provide some evidence that it is true , you have not, and now you are trying discredit me ,again i ask you to back up your claims with some facts that prove what you are saying is true
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.





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