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Becoming a lawyer.....Wetcoaster?


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#181 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:50 PM

I'll review this. I don't think the law society encourages potential litigants to avoid all communication prior to a law suit though.

I never made that claim.
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#182 literaphile

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:26 PM

I'll review this. I don't think the law society encourages potential litigants to avoid all communication prior to a law suit though.


In the majority of cases (at least in my experience), the best course of action is to communicate as much as possible in order to avoid actually litigating the issue. I'd be happy to settle every case before the litigation process starts (well, almost every case).
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#183 ronthecivil

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:28 PM

Lawyers like virtually all other professions are self-regulating. The difference is the Law Society does not conceal discipline proceedings unlike with teachers, nurses, police officers, accountants, engineers, etc.


Engineers do not conceal who was disciplined. In BC for example http://www.apeg.bc.c...discipline.html

Check your facts next time.
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#184 ronthecivil

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:52 PM

I've had to deal with an sleaze-ball lawyer before (Good ol' ICBC), but that certainly doesn't mean that I think all lawyers are guilty by association. One bad apple does not spoil the bunch.

Same with cops, just because a few police officers go out and abuse their power, doesn't mean they all do.

Sadly it is just the ones who do abuse their power/screw people over who resonate in our minds more. Everybody remembers the big scandal that one lawyer/police officer was a part of, but only a select few remember the countless positive contributions that members of that same group have made.


While the lawyers may indeed be a (very expensive which is a problem unto it's own) instrument of sleeze the actual sleeze merchant is ICBC. That they have no problem instructing their lawyers to drag things out as long as possible, deny any money so you can put your insured into the poor house asap, etc. is all the work of ICBC.
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#185 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:56 PM

Engineers do not conceal who was disciplined. In BC for example http://www.apeg.bc.c...discipline.html

Check your facts next time.

Thanks for the update.

How long has that been going on? IIRC when last I checked this was not public information.
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#186 ronthecivil

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:57 PM

Yes - and the firms representing ICBC are usually intensely specialized and very, very good (I'm thinking of one in particular here in Victoria). They litigate ICBC claims all day every day, so if you don't have a lawyer to go against them, you're basically toast.


Of course, the fact that in order to get any sort of fair settlement means you get to have a massive deduction in the form of legal fees on scales that would make the tax man blush isn't going to win the legal community any friends.

Nor is the incredibly letter of the law attitude brought to the so called customers of ICBC that seem pretty convinced that everyone must be lying about every circumstance of the incident or the extent of the damage as though you just crawled out of the DTES and through yourself in front of a vehicle just to try to make a buck.
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#187 ronthecivil

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:00 PM

Thanks for the update.

How long has that been going on? IIRC when last I checked this was not public information.


As long as I have even known there was a job called "engineer". Then again, I haven't practiced for 30 years and don't know when you last checked.

However even from day one of engineering school it was hammered home that if one wants to be self regulated there had better be some seriously checks in place that the public can have faith in.
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#188 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:00 PM

While the lawyers may indeed be a (very expensive which is a problem unto it's own) instrument of sleeze the actual sleeze merchant is ICBC. That they have no problem instructing their lawyers to drag things out as long as possible, deny any money so you can put your insured into the poor house asap, etc. is all the work of ICBC.

That may occur when you do not know your rights and are self-represented. When you have a lawyer there are number of things that can be done to get around the problems.
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#189 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:06 PM

Of course, the fact that in order to get any sort of fair settlement means you get to have a massive deduction in the form of legal fees on scales that would make the tax man blush isn't going to win the legal community any friends.

Nor is the incredibly letter of the law attitude brought to the so called customers of ICBC that seem pretty convinced that everyone must be lying about every circumstance of the incident or the extent of the damage as though you just crawled out of the DTES and through yourself in front of a vehicle just to try to make a buck.

To what "legal fees on scales that would make the tax man blush" do you refer?
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#190 taxi

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:12 PM

Of course, the fact that in order to get any sort of fair settlement means you get to have a massive deduction in the form of legal fees on scales that would make the tax man blush isn't going to win the legal community any friends.

Nor is the incredibly letter of the law attitude brought to the so called customers of ICBC that seem pretty convinced that everyone must be lying about every circumstance of the incident or the extent of the damage as though you just crawled out of the DTES and through yourself in front of a vehicle just to try to make a buck.


1) Lawyers will charge anywhere from 20% to 33.33%. The 33.33% is the maximum law society rules allow lawyers to charge. A competent lawyer should get you back far more than you pay him. IE: they should be able to increase your settlement beyond their legal fee fairly easily.

2) There are many people who try to scam ICBC. It's mostly not people throwing themselves in front of cars, but people who get into small accidents and then claim various whiplash injuries that don't exist or are exaggerated. If everyone told the truth all of the time, we probably wouldn't need lawyers, and ICBC would be a lot more receptive to claimants. Instead we get a situation where everyone is trying to screw everyone to get the most/least out of a claim possible.
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#191 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:26 PM

1) Lawyers will charge anywhere from 20% to 33.33%. The 33.33% is the maximum law society rules allow lawyers to charge. A competent lawyer should get you back far more than you pay him. IE: they should be able to increase your settlement beyond their legal fee fairly easily.

Such a contingency fee agreement (CFA) must be in writing and even then if the amount of the fee is not fair in all the circumstances it can be reduced as with any lawyer's bill for legal services rendered.

There is the BC Law Society Fee Mediation Program
http://www.lawsociet...diation-Program

And the BC Supreme Court Registrar Fee Review
http://www.lawsociet...trar-Fee-Review
http://www.courts.go...essions Act.pdf

In a recent case (March 2013) a bill for legal services under a CFA was reduced from $16 million to $5 million.

“In order to maintain the integrity of the legal profession, a legal account must have some relationship to the actual work carried out. To allow fees awarded in this case given the work the Solicitors actually did would call into question the integrity of the profession . . . A contingency fee agreement is not a lottery ticket. Success in the action does not guarantee a fee in the amount set out in the agreement. Even if the agreement is neither unfair nor unreasonable at the time it was entered into the final account must be reasonable and proper given the services provided and the risk undertaken.”

http://canlii.ca/en/...013bcsc374.html
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#192 ronthecivil

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:30 PM

That may occur when you do not know your rights and are self-represented. When you have a lawyer there are number of things that can be done to get around the problems.


Exactly my point. You pretty much have to get a lawyer to get even close to a fair shake.

And even if it's 25-33%, if it's a one time lump sum that is supposed to make up for last wages or provide for life, that at best you are going to get 67-75% of what is actually determined to be fair compensation.

Years after the fact since the ICBC lawyers will make a point of making you go through every medical check twice etc. etc. in an effort to bankrupt you by keeping you away from a settlement as long as possible.

Don't ever even by the victim of an accident in BC. No way you will ever be properly compensated.
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#193 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:48 PM

Also, to comment on the idea that "law is knowledge" that anyone can learn. That's simply not true. Law is also practice and experience, like any other profession. I can look up how to do my own electrical work online. I probably shouldn't do it myself though, due to total lack of experience and training.



Well then tell me how it is possible that i a flower farmer with no legal training managed to take 2 lawyers to their own tribunal , and against all the odds , we were told it was impossible to do this without legal representation , prove wrongdoing , make them pay compensation and if they do this again they will be barred , i beat them at their own game.
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#194 taxi

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:53 PM

Well then tell me how it is possible that i a flower farmer with no legal training managed to take 2 lawyers to their own tribunal , and against all the odds , we were told it was impossible to do this without legal representation , prove wrongdoing , make them pay compensation and if they do this again they will be barred , i beat them at their own game.


It's not impossible. However, generally, most people will be better off with a lawyer. It also depends on how apparent the wrong doing is and how sophisticated the matter is.

We all get it. A lawyer screwed you over one time. People from all sorts of professions screw people over all the time.
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#195 Jägermeister

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:08 PM

While the lawyers may indeed be a (very expensive which is a problem unto it's own) instrument of sleeze the actual sleeze merchant is ICBC. That they have no problem instructing their lawyers to drag things out as long as possible, deny any money so you can put your insured into the poor house asap, etc. is all the work of ICBC.


Ohhh believe me, I know. I've dealt with ICBC enough to realize what their interests are.
But still, him working for ICBC in the first place is enough to make him a sleaze-ball to me :P

Edited by Jägermeister, 23 April 2013 - 05:09 PM.

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#196 ronthecivil

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:10 PM

It's not impossible. However, generally, most people will be better off with a lawyer. It also depends on how apparent the wrong doing is and how sophisticated the matter is.

We all get it. A lawyer screwed you over one time. People from all sorts of professions screw people over all the time.


Sure, but if it's from a lawyer it really hurts. And unless you have the cash to pony up for your own, it can end up resulting in what the one sides weird and fantastic interpretation of events being set into stone which is hardly fair.

Sure, if your a poor person that can elicit free support to say protect you from overzealous cops you might find your own shining knight free lawyer but if you are say middle class and just happen to have an overly litigious whiny neighbor? Then look the hell out and be ready to either move, pay hundreds of bucks an hour for your own lawyer, or prepare to get royally screwed.

Heck, in the example I give it wasn't even anyone I know or care about, it was a bit of a hothead that got in trouble with a whiny neighbor downstairs that claimed the floor made too much noise (he didn't change the floor it's how it was when he got there) and basically used her lawyer and the strata rules to make him pay to remove it and replace it. And of course pay for her legal fees. And of course a bunch splashed onto the strata council. All from one bully with a lawyer.

I believe he since moved out and woe to the next person. I of course advised the gf to stay the hell away from strata council and her......
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#197 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:10 PM

Exactly my point. You pretty much have to get a lawyer to get even close to a fair shake.

And even if it's 25-33%, if it's a one time lump sum that is supposed to make up for last wages or provide for life, that at best you are going to get 67-75% of what is actually determined to be fair compensation.

Years after the fact since the ICBC lawyers will make a point of making you go through every medical check twice etc. etc. in an effort to bankrupt you by keeping you away from a settlement as long as possible.

Don't ever even by the victim of an accident in BC. No way you will ever be properly compensated.

That has not been my experience in representing plaintiffs.

My usual speech to new personal injury clients injured in MVAs -

Do not expect this to be a lottery win and I can virtually guarantee you that whatever money you are awarded will not truly compensate you for what you have lost in terms of your health.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#198 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:12 PM

Well then tell me how it is possible that i a flower farmer with no legal training managed to take 2 lawyers to their own tribunal , and against all the odds , we were told it was impossible to do this without legal representation , prove wrongdoing , make them pay compensation and if they do this again they will be barred , i beat them at their own game.

If it is anything like the BC process it is designed for people to be self-represented with the burden of proof falling upon the lawyer.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#199 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:17 PM

If it is anything like the BC process it is designed for people to be self-represented with the burden of proof falling upon the lawyer.


I have told you what the process is and you have told me it is different in canada , and we are the only people to have done this without legal representation.
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#200 ronthecivil

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:18 PM

That has not been my experience in representing plaintiffs.

My usual speech to new personal injury clients injured in MVAs -

Do not expect this to be a lottery win and I can virtually guarantee you that whatever money you are awarded will not truly compensate you for what you have lost in terms of your health.


Exactly. What would one expect fighting a monopoly with it's own pricy legal team fighting what necessitate legal costs that can run tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars?

There's so much taken out of the pie by the dueling lawyers why would anyone ever expect full compensation.

Hardly a banner advertisement for the legal industry!
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#201 taxi

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:24 PM

Sure, but if it's from a lawyer it really hurts. And unless you have the cash to pony up for your own, it can end up resulting in what the one sides weird and fantastic interpretation of events being set into stone which is hardly fair.

Sure, if your a poor person that can elicit free support to say protect you from overzealous cops you might find your own shining knight free lawyer but if you are say middle class and just happen to have an overly litigious whiny neighbor? Then look the hell out and be ready to either move, pay hundreds of bucks an hour for your own lawyer, or prepare to get royally screwed.

Heck, in the example I give it wasn't even anyone I know or care about, it was a bit of a hothead that got in trouble with a whiny neighbor downstairs that claimed the floor made too much noise (he didn't change the floor it's how it was when he got there) and basically used her lawyer and the strata rules to make him pay to remove it and replace it. And of course pay for her legal fees. And of course a bunch splashed onto the strata council. All from one bully with a lawyer.

I believe he since moved out and woe to the next person. I of course advised the gf to stay the hell away from strata council and her......


The difference is that when a lawyer screws you over, there is a regulatory body that will step in and ensure the lawyer has acted properly. When a mechanic screws you over, you're often SOL. And before you answer with the law society being biased towards lawyers, I'll inform you they most certainly aren't. I know several lawyers who've had runs ins with the law society for honest mistakes. They will rake lawyers over the coals.

Edit: And in your example, in a world without lawyers, who would make the decision? The strata themselves. How are you likely to get any different/fairer result in that scenario. The problem you are having with lawyers, is an inherent problem with conflict. Regardless of whether or not your have lawyers, you're still going to have whiny neighbours.

Edited by taxi, 23 April 2013 - 05:25 PM.

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#202 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:28 PM

The difference is that when a lawyer screws you over, there is a regulatory body that will step in and ensure the lawyer has acted properly. When a mechanic screws you over, you're often SOL. And before you answer with the law society being biased towards lawyers, I'll inform you they most certainly aren't. I know several lawyers who've had runs ins with the law society for honest mistakes. They will rake lawyers over the coals.


Not over here in Aus , these parasites have most bases covered , as i said we were told it was impossible and most people would have given up after the first couple of years , but i am a peverse and very determined person , i never give up and i fight and nearly always win.
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#203 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:29 PM

I have told you what the process is and you have told me it is different in canada , and we are the only people to have done this without legal representation.

And therein lies the basic deficit in your argument - you are trying to compare your claimed experiences in a foreign jurisdiction (Victoria Australia IIRC) to British Columbia.

BTW what was the name or names of the lawyers involved so that I can check the relevant disciplinary databases to confirm what you are claiming.
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Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#204 ronthecivil

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:30 PM

The difference is that when a lawyer screws you over, there is a regulatory body that will step in and ensure the lawyer has acted properly. When a mechanic screws you over, you're often SOL. And before you answer with the law society being biased towards lawyers, I'll inform you they most certainly aren't. I know several lawyers who've had runs ins with the law society for honest mistakes. They will rake lawyers over the coals.

Edit: And in your example, in a world without lawyers, who would make the decision? The strata themselves. How are you likely to get any different/fairer result in that scenario. The problem you are having with lawyers, is an inherent problem with conflict. Regardless of whether or not your have lawyers, you're still going to have whiny neighbours.


I doubt most people would know how to complain about being treated unfairly in a one sided decision and I believe in the case of the poor fellow it was some sort of arbitration that he got screwed over on.

And I agree there would still be conflict without lawyers and as it turns out many, many conflicts get settled just fine without them. The problem is that as soon as one side happens to get one it's suddenly like escalating a fist fight into a gun fight and unless you pay through the teeth to get your own lawyer your going to be DOA in that dispute.

Being the instrument of doomed if you don't (by being in a one sided dispute), doomed if you do (lawyer fees being insane for the average Joe) is not going to win a lot of support!
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#205 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:31 PM

Exactly. What would one expect fighting a monopoly with it's own pricy legal team fighting what necessitate legal costs that can run tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars?

There's so much taken out of the pie by the dueling lawyers why would anyone ever expect full compensation.

Hardly a banner advertisement for the legal industry!

You missed the point.

The issue of compensation is that whatever is awarded will not be enough to compensate your pain and suffering and loss of health.
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Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#206 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:36 PM

Not over here in Aus , these parasites have most bases covered , as i said we were told it was impossible and most people would have given up after the first couple of years , but i am a peverse and very determined person , i never give up and i fight and nearly always win.

I would agree you are a "peverse" person.

Edited by Wetcoaster, 23 April 2013 - 05:36 PM.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#207 taxi

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:36 PM

I doubt most people would know how to complain about being treated unfairly in a one sided decision and I believe in the case of the poor fellow it was some sort of arbitration that he got screwed over on.

And I agree there would still be conflict without lawyers and as it turns out many, many conflicts get settled just fine without them. The problem is that as soon as one side happens to get one it's suddenly like escalating a fist fight into a gun fight and unless you pay through the teeth to get your own lawyer your going to be DOA in that dispute.

Being the instrument of doomed if you don't (by being in a one sided dispute), doomed if you do (lawyer fees being insane for the average Joe) is not going to win a lot of support!


Strata companies exist with or without lawyers. As do crotchety neighbours. Equal access to lawyers is definitely a problem. However, without any lawyers, people with more money would still have access to greater influence and greater educational resources...the world is just kind of unfair that way. That being said, in the case of a dispute with your neighbour, there are various services where you can find volunteer lawyers to represent poor clients. I personally volunteer several hours a week to Pro-Bono. That being said, access to justice...and well everything else is a problem the poor face, and I agree more need to be done to rectify that.
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#208 ronthecivil

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:37 PM

You missed the point.

The issue of compensation is that whatever is awarded will not be enough to compensate your pain and suffering and loss of health.


Fair enough.

Everyone I know that has been through the process didn't even get all the lost wages, let alone pain and suffering.

A monopoly and dueling lawyer teams (which are effectively compulsory to anyone who wants to drive in BC or is the victim of anyone that does) are hardly going to provide a good service or win a lot of friends.

My point is that in this situation (and oh so many more ) so much money is spent on legal fees (and associated insurance and paper work) that it's often one of the biggest costs of doing things. If your a company it's one things, but when your the average Joe good luck if you come up against one!
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#209 ronthecivil

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:43 PM

Strata companies exist with or without lawyers. As do crotchety neighbours. Equal access to lawyers is definitely a problem. However, without any lawyers, people with more money would still have access to greater influence and greater educational resources...the world is just kind of unfair that way. That being said, in the case of a dispute with your neighbour, there are various services where you can find volunteer lawyers to represent poor clients. I personally volunteer several hours a week to Pro-Bono. That being said, access to justice...and well everything else is a problem the poor face, and I agree more need to be done to rectify that.


Oh it wasn't me. If it was me I would be taking pictures and filing notes and noting that "I disagree" with a cool head. Like I said I already told the gf (and the strata in her cross hairs) to avoid her like the plague. In fact it's so bad that they can't even get a strata council or a management company anymore!

And of course probably not so cheap to a middle class client where if they did pay they would quickly be a poor client!

The problem with the whole access to justice thing is I seriously doubt it would be cheap and last I checked we don't even have enough courts to prosecute all the criminals apparently.

What we need for dispute resolution is more situations where neither side gets a lawyer.......
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#210 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:44 PM

And therein lies the basic deficit in your argument - you are trying to compare your claimed experiences in a foreign jurisdiction (Victoria Australia IIRC) to British Columbia.

BTW what was the name or names of the lawyers involved so that I can check the relevant disciplinary databases to confirm what you are claiming.


I am not trying to compare anything , i am telling you i that i believe lawyers are parasites and the world would be better off if there was a lot less of them.

And i could not give a rats arse if you believe me or not , i have absolutely no respect for you and could care less what you think.
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