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Luongo benched tonight but Fleury keeps on keeping on...


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#91 Vansicle

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 05:32 PM

Could you imagine if we lost with a healthy Schneider on the bench tonight.

Luongo hasn't won a playoff game in 2 years

His fault or not, that's pretty sad for a elite, clutch performer.

If Cory isn't 100% healthy AV should be fired on the spot.

This.

Snake Doctor, on 23 May 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:snapback.png

Miller is not on our list. It's Lack as our #1. There is no reason we would have traded both Schnieder and Luongo if we never intended to give Lack the #1 starting job.  Furthermore, the salary and term Miller is looking for is not in our favor.

 


#92 Underachieving Hero of CDC

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 05:35 PM

Fleury and Luongo are both clutch goaltenders that play big when it matters most. Sure he let in a lot of goals, but he played well when it mattered and is getting the wins.

I don't like putting a cold goalie in net, especially in a must-win game. Luongo is our guy for these sorts of games - the first two games of the series weren't must-wins, but going down 0-3 is season-over.

AV made this same idiotic mistake last year and it looks like he just wants to repeat history. When our season is on the line, Luongo has come up big for us time and time again, but AV is looking to a guy with a horrible playoff record and 1 playoff win over the guy who stole us the biggest games in franchise history on our 2011 Cup run.

Big games like this tonight require big-game goalies with big-game experience.

I'm curious, if Schneids actually does come in and plays lights out...the canucks make a miraculous comeback and win this series...would you repent and finally accept that Schneider just might be the better goaltender?

#93 Vansicle

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 05:37 PM

Wow, this is the answer to the Canucks pathetic offence? AV and MG need to be fired on the spot.

Oooh! This!

Snake Doctor, on 23 May 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:snapback.png

Miller is not on our list. It's Lack as our #1. There is no reason we would have traded both Schnieder and Luongo if we never intended to give Lack the #1 starting job.  Furthermore, the salary and term Miller is looking for is not in our favor.

 


#94 ShakyWalton

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:06 PM

Im so sick of this soap opera that never ends,,I cant wait for this season to be over so we dont have to deal with all this crap....Shnieds or LU...Lu or Shnieds,,get this mess rectified fast..if the Nuxx lose this series there should be some movement on the Coach,,Goalie and possibly the GM front!


I think this is the biggest turn off ever...this goalie crap has to end,if Shnieds is sick..play LU..if not..put him in...but I sure as hell dont want to see this happening next year,,what a write off.

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#95 BigRedMachine

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:14 PM

This makes no sense. Starting Schneider over luongo is not going to address any of our problems, and will just further undermine player confidence.

#96 poetica

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:23 PM

This makes no sense. Starting Schneider over luongo is not going to address any of our problems, and will just further undermine player confidence.


While I don't think it should effect player confidence one way or the other, I couldn't agree more that it doesn't address our real issues. It's just the easiest "fix."
Go, Canucks, Go!
Every single one of them.

Thanks for the memories, Luo! :'(

#97 MJDDawg

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:25 PM

Smacks of desperation by a coach who seems to have no answers.

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#98 Butcher

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:49 PM

"His fault or not" really? You don't think it matters? Context is everything.

In the last 2 years, Luo's only played in 4 playoff games. And in those 4 games, the forwards scored a grand total of 7 goals. And that's with giving them credit for the accidental Game 1 goal from this year. That gives them a measly 1.75 goal per game average over those 4 games.

Take out that accidental goal that wasn't actually scored by a (current) Canuck and their playoff goal per game average for those 4 games drops to only 1.5. That means that essentially (going by the oversimplified average) to win with this team Luo can not let in more than a single goal per game and has to get shutout every other game to make up for the lack of point production. That's just unrealistic for the playoffs.

Number of games played so far in 2012-2013 playoffs: 18
Number of games won when scoring 2 or fewer goals: 5
Number of games won when scoring 4 or more goals: 8

In game 1 of last year's playoffs, Luo made 11 more saves than Quick and had a SV% only .002 lower than Quick's. Being that their 4th goal was an empty netter, imagine what a difference the team scoring one more goal would have made.

And in case you're one of those "they just play better in front of Cory" wishful thinkers, including every playoff game they've played in the last 2 years, the Canucks have only averaged 1.57 goals per game. In the 3 games that Cory played last year, they averaged only 1.33 (having scored 0, 3, and 1 goals respectively.)

EDIT: For those thinking it's different in the regular season, it's not. Averaging shots by per games played, Cory faced an average of 27.83 shots per game this season. Luo faced an average of 27.55. Averaging saves made by number of games played, Cory made an average of 25.8 saves per game. Luo made an average of 25 saves per game.

More of that context you think doesn't matter: Cory lost the same number of games as Luo did last year. In fact, Cory has only won 1 NHL playoff game in his entire career. And not surprisingly, that single win also happens to be only playoff game in the last 2 years the Canucks have managed to score 3 goals.

Cory's an amazing goalie, but he's also been sitting for almost 2 weeks. Apparently he wasn't healthy enough to even sit on the bench just 2 days ago, and now he's being throw out there with the entire weight of our playoff hopes on his back despite Luo playing well and being game ready. That doesn't seem smart, or respectful to either goalie. And frankly it just puts undue focus on the one part of the team that hasn't been an issue.


id like to see the stats for how many goals the canucks score in front of Schneider and Luongo in the regular season, you didnt include that.
you have some good points, but i cant agree that Schneider isnt healthy because he didnt play the last game. We simply dont know the situation, and eventually players get healthy, and they play when they are. Plus you cant believe anything management publicly says at this time of year.
Schneider, as many others pointed out, earned the #1 spot this year (obvious by wins, GAA, Save %), so you go with your #1 guy when he can go.

#99 VanIsleNuckFan

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:53 PM

I'm one of the most anti-Luongo critics but he's not been the problem and benching him when he's been playing well is insulting. Frankly I'm embarrassed to be a Canucks fan right now.

How does Mark Andre Fleury who's let in 10 goals in the last 2 games continually get starts and Luongo who's been playing very well get benched... Figure that logic out will ya

You know I know Schneider>Luongo but from the reports I've heard is that Schneider is looking frail, skinny, lifeless, sick etc.. He's also ice cold coming into a must win game and that puts helluva more pressure on him.

I'm just baffled. I've never been a Luongo fan and never will be but he's getting wronged here. What a friggen joke!


Your types are harder to please than a fickle 20 year old socialite.. Gimme a break, you'd have probably made a get rid of Lu thread last year eh.. Or why don't you just tell AV if you see him, I'm sure your opinion is totally credible to the effectiveness of either goalie or this team..

#100 kchengc

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:58 PM

Neimi has outplayed Luongo.


a better way of saying that is the sharks have out played the canucks. I am sure if the canucks generated the same quality scoring chances the sharks have we probably have potted a few more goals than the sharks have. neimi didn't out play lu, he faced far easier shots as his team in front of him blocked more shots, cleared the slot, and clear rebounds faster than we have. how many quality odd men rushed and quality scoring chances have you counted in the last two games for the both teams? switch niemi and lu we probably lost the first two games by larger margin.

btw, how many great saves has niemi made vs how many sure-goals did lu robbed?

it isn't lu... it is the whole freaking team.. correction, the whole freaking system that started with the coach...

#101 poetica

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 07:10 PM

id like to see the stats for how many goals the canucks score in front of Schneider and Luongo in the regular season, you didnt include that.
you have some good points, but i cant agree that Schneider isnt healthy because he didnt play the last game. We simply dont know the situation, and eventually players get healthy, and they play when they are. Plus you cant believe anything management publicly says at this time of year.
Schneider, as many others pointed out, earned the #1 spot this year (obvious by wins, GAA, Save %), so you go with your #1 guy when he can go.


As I pointed out in an earlier post, Cory won 2 games over half of his starts this year, whereas Luo won exactly half of his starts (and also played in 2 games Cory was pulled in). Of the 17 games Cory won, the Canucks scored 3 or more goals in 11 of them. Of the 9 games Luo won, the Canucks scored 3 or more goals in 5 of them. If you were curious about more detailed stats than that, you'll have to do your own legwork.

I never said that Cory wasn't healthy, only that he was cold. AV is the one who said he wasn't healthy enough to even sit backup last game. Being that he had an injury that apparently was still bad enough to keep him off the bench last game, I find it concerning that he's being put in now. I hope, though, that he is healthy and good to go!

As for whether or not Schneider actually earned the number 1 spot based on stats is debatable in my opinion. First, he was pulled in 2 games which went a long way to protecting his stats, whereas Luo was left in to see his plummet. When Luo's SV% for the season only ended up being .02 below Cory's, that's significant.

Second, Cory got the better games. As I've pointed out in multiple threads around the forum, no matter who's in net the team plays better against teams they deem more worthy opponents but Luo got a higher percentage of games against the lower level opponents. Just the SV% doesn't adequately take into account the team in front of the goalie. For example, Cory's stats got a boost from the Chicago game, easily the best team effort of the entire season, whereas Luo's stats took a beating from the Anaheim game in which the team didn't even bother to show up until the 3rd.

That being said, I like Cory. He's a good goalie who's also younger and cheaper, making him the better option for the long term. I also like Luo and appreciate everything he's done here in Vancouver. I support whichever is net. My problem is that people have an unrealistic standard for Luo, over-inflate Cory's abilities and will eventually turn on him like they have on Luo when he fails to live up to those impossibly high expectations while never seeing that our real problem is the lack of scoring.
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Thanks for the memories, Luo! :'(

#102 thrago

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 07:14 PM

Fleury has a save% of .923 in the playoffs Luongo has .902. Only two goalies have a worse save % then Luongo Nabokov and Howard except they both have wins. Loungo might notbe the problem buts he isn't the solution either.

#103 smurf47

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 07:58 PM

As I pointed out in an earlier post, Cory won 2 games over half of his starts this year, whereas Luo won exactly half of his starts (and also played in 2 games Cory was pulled in). Of the 17 games Cory won, the Canucks scored 3 or more goals in 11 of them. Of the 9 games Luo won, the Canucks scored 3 or more goals in 5 of them. If you were curious about more detailed stats than that, you'll have to do your own legwork.

I never said that Cory wasn't healthy, only that he was cold. AV is the one who said he wasn't healthy enough to even sit backup last game. Being that he had an injury that apparently was still bad enough to keep him off the bench last game, I find it concerning that he's being put in now. I hope, though, that he is healthy and good to go!

As for whether or not Schneider actually earned the number 1 spot based on stats is debatable in my opinion. First, he was pulled in 2 games which went a long way to protecting his stats, whereas Luo was left in to see his plummet. When Luo's SV% for the season only ended up being .02 below Cory's, that's significant.

Second, Cory got the better games. As I've pointed out in multiple threads around the forum, no matter who's in net the team plays better against teams they deem more worthy opponents but Luo got a higher percentage of games against the lower level opponents. Just the SV% doesn't adequately take into account the team in front of the goalie. For example, Cory's stats got a boost from the Chicago game, easily the best team effort of the entire season, whereas Luo's stats took a beating from the Anaheim game in which the team didn't even bother to show up until the 3rd.

That being said, I like Cory. He's a good goalie who's also younger and cheaper, making him the better option for the long term. I also like Luo and appreciate everything he's done here in Vancouver. I support whichever is net. My problem is that people have an unrealistic standard for Luo, over-inflate Cory's abilities and will eventually turn on him like they have on Luo when he fails to live up to those impossibly high expectations while never seeing that our real problem is the lack of scoring.

Sorry but your statistics are incorrect as per NHL stats Lou started 18 games, played in 20....SP of .907 VS corys 2.27...sorry..thats .20 better, not .02 GAA Lou 2.56 Cory 2.11 , that's .45 goals per game better... Lou started won 9 lost 6 and 3 in OT Cory was much better. Now, tell me, how does a goalies stats improve if hes pulled after giving up 2 shots on 2 goals....without opportunity to minimize the damage to his stats? Playing against better teams improves Cory's Stats...give us a break. all of these "better" stats that Cory has is because he has better technique, more patient in goal, better positioning, and controls rebounds better. You are entitled to your opinion but trust the Canucks brass because they also have all the numbers to compare them both... The gaa stats 2.56 vs 2.11 this year, 1.96 vs 2,34 last year should be enough to convince you. If not, sign up for a goaltending camp.

#104 poetica

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:03 PM

Sorry but your statistics are incorrect as per NHL stats Lou started 18 games, played in 20....SP of .907 VS corys 2.27...sorry..thats .20 better, not .02 GAA Lou 2.56 Cory 2.11 , that's .45 goals per game better...


How so? Luo had a .907 SV%. Cory had a .927 SV%. That would be in the .02 difference.

But you are absolutely correct that Cory's GAA is .45 better than Luo's. That in no way negates my other points about Cory being pulled to protect his stats while Luo was left in games he should have been pulled in, or getting games in which the team played better.

Now, tell me, how does a goalies stats improve if hes pulled after giving up 2 shots on 2 goals....without opportunity to minimize the damage to his stats?


Simple, because a goalie's season SV% is determined by dividing the total number of saves made with the total number of shots against. If he's pulled in a game he's obviously struggling in, it limits the damage to his stats by minimizing the goals he lets in.

For example, let's say Cory stayed in that game he allowed 2 goals on 2 shots and (for the sake of authenticity) it exactly duplicated another of his performances this season - the 4/18 Dallas game. As such, let's say Cory stayed in and faced an additional 28 shots and allowed an additional 3 goals (not unreasonable given his start...) If that had happened, his seasonal SV% would have dropped to .926, or a .001 drop from that single game. And that's assuming he only let in a total of 5 goals while facing a total of 30 shots. For all we know he could have let in as many or more on fewer shots, causing even more damage to his seasonal SV%.

Playing against better teams improves Cory's Stats...give us a break. all of these "better" stats that Cory has is because he has better technique, more patient in goal, better positioning, and controls rebounds better.


As I've explained repeatedly, the team plays better against better opponents and tends to phone it in with what they deem lesser opponents. But you disagree? Ok then. Even ignoring the two games he was pulled in, explain what happened in the following games:

2/15 Dallas .862 SV%
2/21 Dallas .880 SV%
2/26 Phoenix .857 SV%
3/10 Minnesota .875 SV%
4/13 Colorado .846 SV%
4/18 Dallas .833 SV%

Only one of those teams made the playoffs (and only by tie breaker), so explain to me why those are Cory's worst games of the season (other than the 2 he was pulled in) if not as the result of the team's play? Either you agree the team plays worse against weaker opponents, or you think Cory does. Which is it?

The funny thing is, I don't think you seem to realize I'm not slagging Cory. I'm defending both him and Luo and saying that the team's real problem is scoring and lack of consistency in effort. I'm also pointing out that some fans' unrealistically high expectations of and undeserved anger at the goalies when they fail to be perfect is stupid and not at all helpful.

You are entitled to your opinion but trust the Canucks brass because they also have all the numbers to compare them both... The gaa stats 2.56 vs 2.11 this year, 1.96 vs 2,34 last year should be enough to convince you. If not, sign up for a goaltending camp.


As I've detailed in multiple posts, there is more to it than simply SV% and GAA. If you think those 2 stats tell the entire story and aren't impacted significantly by the performance of the rest of the team, maybe you should sign up for a hockey camp.

...Or maybe just watch a game. For example, tonight you'll notice that Lappy backed up his goalie and made a save. As it is, Cory has a .913 so far in this game. Had Lappy not made that save for him and that goal had been scored but everything else in the game remained exactly the same, Cory's SV% in this game thus far would have dropped all the way to .870. See what a big difference your team can make?

Likewise, a goalie's stats will likely be better if his team minimizes breakaways, penalties, and his D do a good job of clearing out rebounds and covering their men in front of the net.

Yet again, I'm not slagging Cory in the slightest. I'm saying that both are good goalies and give our team a good chance to win, and that most times when we don't it's not the goalie's fault, no matter which one is is. It's a team sport and needs to be a team effort to win!
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Every single one of them.

Thanks for the memories, Luo! :'(

#105 AngNMGN99

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:19 PM

Last game alain? Als buyout our so called top players!

#106 MJDDawg

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:20 PM

AV is a genius I tell you. He did what many might not do and put in a goalie in a must win game who hadn't played in 13 days. He's got balls you gotta give him that.

Can't help but think back to all those meltdowns a couple of years ago against Boston. Same thing two years later, just a different goalie. Makes you think that maybe it wasn't the goalie that was the problem.

This team has been and always will be mentally fragile with this core and this coaching staff.

This is the end for this group.

Edited by MJDDawg, 05 May 2013 - 09:55 PM.

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#107 etsen3

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:39 PM

Putting Schneider in was a mistake, I don't care if he our "starter", but if it ain't broke don't fix it. Luongo was sick last game, he has more experience, and he's done a much better job than Schneider this game.

#108 k1nz

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:53 PM

The real question is why pull Schneider after the 5th goal?

If that was Loungo getting shelled AV would have just popped another stick of bubble gum in and kept on smiling.

#109 Sia

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:49 PM

Wow where are all the people that were defending AV's decision to start Schnieder in the first 3 pages now?

Edited by Sia, 05 May 2013 - 10:49 PM.


#110 Special Ed

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:50 PM

Wow where are all the people that were defending AV's decision to start Schnieder in the first 3 pages now?


Obviously the roaches all scattered into the darkness.

If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#111 VKO

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:04 PM

If Luongo had played tonight and lost with Schneider healthy on the bench, I'm pretty sure most of you would be ripping AV for not playing our supposed "no.1 goalie" this season.

#112 CanucksSayEh

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:05 PM

Fluery is young, the Penguins core is also young. Recent(ish) 1st overall pick. He does has a Stanley Cup ring.

Not saying he deserves to keep his job, I think he's terrible, one of the coldest goalies in the league with a melt down level that makes Lu in Boston look like Patrick ******* Roy. Vokoun isn't much of a goalie to lean on himself.

Just sayin, Pens have a lot invested, not a great 2nd option, and a bright future regardless.

That's why.

Edited by CanucksSayEh, 05 May 2013 - 11:05 PM.





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