safin Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 You talk alot about facts but offer nothing resembling any. Let me give you a simple formula. Goals divided by games multiplied by games per season. 104 / 377 x 82 = 23 So if you'd like to ignore things like underlying numbers and stick to mere production alone, take that career average of 23 goals (the precise pace he set here in 56 games here in 2011/12), go find players with comparable production, and compare them to his cap hit, which in fact is 4.25 million, in case facts matter. Here are some facts from the last full NHL season: http://www.nhl.com/i...sort=goals&pg=3 Have a look at the players in the 21-24 goal scoring range.... Staal, Backes, Heatley, Kane, Filpulla, Krejci, Zetteburg, Grabovski, Bergeron, Williams, Brown, Landeskog, Kesler, Lecavalier, Semin, Stastny, Carter.. Next step, http://capgeek.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 So let me ask you honestly, which of those players would you not trade Booth for straight up? Heatley is on the downside of his career so lets get that one out of the way and talk players in the same age range. This is what I'm trying to say stats only tell part of the story, yes they fill in the story but they only tell part of it. Booth doesn't have the leadership skills of a Backes, or the defensive skills of a Bergeron he was supposed to be the 30+ goal scorer as that is what he was becoming when he signed that contract, he hasn't lived upto that contract since he signed it. What he did before is pointless to me, it's what is he doing now, he needs to be better than a 40 pt man at that contract playing 2nd line minutes...I hope with a healthy season under his belt he'll get there but this preoccupation with analytics...this sport is what have you done for me lately, what a guy did 5 years ago is pointless. Right now he's not doing enough and injuries are a big reason but he hasn't been the same player since he got his bell rung so we may not ever see the player he was on route to being prior that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silfverberg Snipes Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 How can some of you watch a full season of Canucks and still find ways to support Booth. The only spot he could possibly play on is the 1st or 2nd line and he has absolutely zero chemistry with Kesler or the Sedins so it's a wash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Roughly translated it means exactly what I said it means...I cheer for Booth every time he puts on that Canuck jersey, every time he touches the puck I'd love nothing more than to see him score, does that mean at the end of the game if wasn't effective I can't say so? when a goaltender lets in a softy I can't say that was a bad goal? this is part of being a sports fan we cheer and we jeer and we discuss our team...I believe we need better bang for our 4+ million if you think he's living upto his contract then by all means say so but please don't tell me I'm not allowed to cheer as I see fit and I have to praise every thing a canuck does. I'm speaking about those gms that had the opportunity to trade for him before we got in there with an offer of an old injured Samuelson and Sturm...Few teams with all the analytics they had in place thought he was worth more than a throw in and a guy who by his own words wasn't ready to go and rehabbing off a serious injury. A young and up and coming power forward with a 30 goal season under his belt for that when Florida was nowhere near a playoff run and didn't need vets? You want facts how about Booth has had one solid season in the nhl, one 60 point season, his next closest was 20 points off that mark, he hasn't played 1 full season in the last 4. Clinging to the analytics that say the canucks get more offensive zone time when he's in the lineups is just one set of facts, what about the hard facts you continue to ignore...he signed that contract after his 60 pt season, and hasn't come close to it or remained healthy ever since...cling to the analytics, the facts are he's rarely in the line up and he isn't producing at the same clip as when he signed that contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 How can some of you watch a full season of Canucks and still find ways to support Booth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 This guy's career-trajectory is starting to resemble the life-pattern of the cicada. Stuck 17 yrs underground, only to one day emerge & finally make some noise... Listening to those darn noisy crickets(outside the window) this morning in Japan; whilst hoping Mr booth may magically transform into vintage-Lafleur, back in the day. His injury blocked a buyout. Maybe prayer IS the answer. Reminds me of ol'Harry Neale waxin poetic about one of his(best-intentioned!), yet well-travelled 80's picks..Michel Petit..or Daigneault? Anyways, as he put it succinctly, "Guy's got all the tools-but he never had the toolbox!" Thanks, Harry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 This guy's career-trajectory is starting to resemble the life-pattern of the cicada. Stuck 17 yrs underground, only to one day emerge & finally make some noise... Listening to those darn noisy crickets(outside the window) this morning in Japan; whilst hoping Mr booth may magically transform into vintage-Lafleur, back in the day. His injury blocked a buyout. Maybe prayer IS the answer. Reminds me of ol'Harry Neale waxin poetic about one of his(best-intentioned!), yet well-travelled 80's picks..Michel Petit..or Daigneault? Anyways, as he put it succinctly, "Guy's got all the tools-but he never had the toolbox!" Thanks, Harry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
safin Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I think that what you are expressing is a common misconception about point production in the NHL. The average 2nd line left wing scored 16 goals and 37 points from the years 2009/2010/2011. A better than average - as in top 10, and generally closer to top 5 or 6 second line left winger averaged 19 goals and 42 points over that span. You'll also notice that the majority of those guys play closer to 20 minutes a game compared to Booth's 15, and that a number of them are actually top line players. You can ask 'who on that list would you trade Booth for?', but that's irrelevent to this discussion, where the claim you were making is that Booth doesn't produce enough for what he makes. You can also ask yourself 'who on that list makes only 4.25 million?' My point is fairly simple - whether a person likes David Booth or not - (and I, like most people here, am not a big fan of prosthelytizing or killing rare game that I'm not going to eat) - but people imo make too much of Booth's cap hit, and underplay his actual on ice performance, which goes beyond his scoring, to having consistently good underlying numbers (whether people want to acknowledge it or not, they do reflect something about the way he plays the game). His production is actually above average for a second line left wing, which is what he is, his underlying numbers are better than average, and his cap hit is pretty much in line with what you're going to pay for a player like that. For example if you take the Bruins, Carolina, orTampa he'd be tied for 6th among their forwards in cap hit. Minnesota, Detroit, San Jose, or Toronto he'd be 5th, which is where he falls in Vancouver... I think people protest too much about him. Canucks fans have been spoiled somewhat imo, having guys like Hansen and Higgins put up 40 points on the third line - which makes them better than average second line wingers / elite third line scorers (not taking into account how good of two way players they are) - and yet you still hear people on here complaining all the time about Higgins getting a league average salary and a ntc... Such is CDC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I applaud you for speaking civilly, Rupert for all his talking is a condesending twit who I won't bother with but I'd be fine to hash this out with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshinefe Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I'd like to see them ship Booth out as soon as another 20 goal scorer becomes available. The guy is a headcase, begging God on Twitter to heal his injuries. Yeah, okay David, God (if he exists) surely has nothing better to do than read your twitter then swoop down and heal you. The guy is just a moron and has been injured and nearly useless to the team since he's been here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THERETOOL Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I'd like to see them ship Booth out as soon as another 20 goal scorer becomes available. The guy is a headcase, begging God on Twitter to heal his injuries. Yeah, okay David, God (if he exists) surely has nothing better to do than read your twitter then swoop down and heal you. The guy is just a moron and has been injured and nearly useless to the team since he's been here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I applaud you for speaking civilly, Rupert for all his talking is a condesending twit who I won't bother with but I'd be fine to hash this out with you. You brought up the player list and then stated it is irrelevent. If you're going to use it to make a point then understand that it will be brought up as a talking point. Comparing Booth to the average is well and good but let's try to have a loftier mindset...do we want to be average or do we want a winning team...Columbus can dress whoever they want for their 2nd line left winger and if he generates 5 goals and 10 points that doesn't mean Booth is special...Lets compare to winning teams which is where we want to be, no? Pitt - Morrow on the downside of his career but hard to argue that Morrow isn't still the superior player 4.1 mill cap hit Boston - Marchand (4.5 mill probably the best agitator in the game only 3 years in close to Booths high and better on avg seasons Chicago - Saad/Sharp take your pick Saad was on the top line but a rookie put up 27 points in the abbreviated season on 850k would've surpassed 40 over the full season, Sharp and Booth aren't in the same discussion LA - Penner Similar production to Booth regular season, playoff performer... 3.25 million lets go further SJ - Torres 1.75 million about 30 points on average over a season Detroit - Cleary 2.8 million consistent 40 point guy over his career, careers winding down slipping to low 30s NYR - Hagelin barely 2 seasons in, almost hit 40 in 65 games his rookie season on pace for 40 pts this season, 2.25 cap hit. Ottawa - Conacher, rookie season, entry level contract, on pace for 50 points. What do they all have in common, better return out of investment. I'm not saying the underlying numbers are irrelevent but they only paint part of the picture...his job isn't to chew up clock, if he put up 50 points and had the analytics saying how valuable he is I'd be ecstatic but as it is he's spent too much time injured and while the succesful teams have guys meeting or exceeding contracts we have one that is underachieving in comparison. As I said, lets not compare him to the bottom feeders, lets compare to the guys who are winning cups and getting rounds in the playoffs, what are their 2nd line lw'ers doing for them at what price tag...are we getting the same ROI from ours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockiegenious Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 david booth doesnt have the heart of a canuck. hunting and kill innocent animals is immoral and not what the canucks organization stands for. they should trade him for prospects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangelos Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 david booth doesnt have the heart of a canuck. hunting and kill innocent animals is immoral and not what the canucks organization stands for. they should trade him for prospects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 david booth doesnt have the heart of a canuck. hunting and kill innocent animals is immoral and not what the canucks organization stands for. they should trade him for prospects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockiegenious Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Do you eat chicken, fish, beef etc. ? How do you think they made it to your dinner table? Just because YOU did not kill it does not mean you are any better, you are the same in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grape Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 i'm a vegan and im pretty sure 'heart of a canuck' doesnt mean killing animals for fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5minutesinthebox Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Booth-Gaunce-Kassian for the 3rd line if we have to use Gaunce because of cap reasons, Booth and Kass were starting to get some chemistry before Booth went down. That's a big heavy body line, just need a coatch to let them run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I'd like to see them ship Booth out as soon as another 20 goal scorer becomes available. The guy is a headcase, begging God on Twitter to heal his injuries. Yeah, okay David, God (if he exists) surely has nothing better to do than read your twitter then swoop down and heal you. The guy is just a moron and has been injured and nearly useless to the team since he's been here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockiegenious Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 So if that other 20 goal scorer tapes his stick a certain way or always puts on his equipment in the same order because he superstitious, that would be fine with you? Is it that, or is it just that Booth is religious that you disagree with? Superstition has as much effect as prayer, so I guess you'd be fine with ruling out a lot of hockey players capable of scoring based on them having an occasionally irrational/illogical thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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