Wings succeeding despite size etc.

[samurai]

the posts here highlight some important points

The simple fact is there is no magic formula, there are important fundamentals but they aren't the only things you need and often you don't need all the fundamentals or ideal versions of them.

What this all means is that Gillis is making excuses, not appreciating the intelligence of the fans, and seeing things from a very distorted and inaccurate perspective.

There is no one model of a winning team.

[etsen3]

IMO the term "Detroit model" is very overused by Canucks fans...we are not copying any type of model by another team. Mike Gillis has said he wants to have a competitive team every year similar to Detroit, that does not mean we're copying everything they do.

It's not like Detroit pioneered the concept of trying to be a contender for an extended period of time rather than tanking and going through big ups and downs - I'm pretty sure every team wants to have consistency and a winning tradition, but some don't have the money/capacity to do so. On the other hand, franchises with impressive winning traditions like the New York Yankees and the Montreal Canadiens (in the past) have been doing this for decades long before Detroit has.

It's not like Detroit has some secret formula that Mike Gillis is trying to emulate. He might get some ideas from them but IMO the "Detroit model" is a myth.

[wallstreetamigo]

How can Gillis even pretend to try to follow the Detroit model when he thinks that stockpiling #3 and #4 type dmen (Hamhuis, Bieksa, Garrison, Edler, Ballard) will get it done? With all due respect, one of the biggest pieces Detroit had until this season was Lidstrom, a generational talent and true #1 dman.

Almost every cup winning team has that one guy who can either take over a game offensively or REALLY shut down the other team defensively. I am a huge fan of Hamhuis but he is not that guy unfortunately.\

And don't even get me started on drafting and development. Following Detroit should mean you actuallly follow what they actually do rather than just talk about it hoping people will believe you.

And one other note: How can a former player agent not realize that older players may be theoretically better but that they also come with multiple times higher salaries? I mean, he is one of the guys who made things that way as an agent. His all 27-32 year old team model screamed out too high priced even BEFORE the lockout and the cap reduction.

[Rypien37]

Very bad example.

The Wings are 1 of 30 teams that can do this because:

1. They have 2 incredibly well rounded superstars

2. A wealth of playoff experience

3. Players and history that are tremendously respected around the league

4. Best coach AND Gm in the NHL - meaning one of the best systems as well as DRAFTING

5. A goalie that is on a major hot streak

[brewdog]

Detroit never ceases to amaze me. It doesn't seem to matter who they dress; everyone ends up looking like a Selke candidate on the ice.

[Raph]

Detroit never ceases to amaze me. It doesn't seem to matter who they dress; everyone ends up looking like a Selke candidate on the ice.

[DeNiro]

The Canucks don't have any superstar players.

[Baggins]

First of all I would like to state my opinion. Which is...Modelling our team after the Detroit Redwings teams that won the cup was not a mistake nor has it become irrelevant due to changes in todays game.

Gillis has recently stated that he thinks this plan was a mistake. I disagree. IMO our recent success is due to the focus on keeping and aquiring skill over goon squads.

The problem with Gillis' statement is that we only copied part of the Wings formula. The wings have always had skill, (Eg. Yzerman, Federov, Zetterburg, Datsyk) but the other side of the coin is that MG seems to have missed the Detroit/Colorado era of blood bath hockey. Remember Brendon Shannahan punching in Adam Foote's face etc. (Ex. Shannahan, McCarty, Konstantinov, Grimson, Probert)

Okay enough about the teams makup. The Wings also have had coaches that push for hard gritty play. They push players to get aggressive and fight for every inch. Scotty Bowman is a mastermind of hockey in my opinion. He won 9 cups and coached the Wings to three cups. Just tonight I watch the wings formula play out beautifully. Mike Babcock who's driving message is finish "hard", has pushed this years team who is lacking Nick Lidstom to top the Presidents trophy winners of Chicago, 3 times in the playoffs.

So the real question is what do they have that we dont?

1. History - History matters. I remember the dread I fealt when Boston brought out Bobbi Orr to wave the flag in the stand in 2010. The Wings have that same mojo going with Gordie Howe

2. Coaches who preach a hard nosed brand of Hockey based on letting your skilled line score and everyone grind it out tough until you get the cup.

3. One huge point Im making is that we have the Sedins as our top stars. They take up the biggest chunks of payroll. Do they have the desire, grit, aggessiveness, toughness etc that it takes to win a cup? All I can picture is Marchand punching Daniel's face in, as he bobbleheads over and over again. That is my answer. NO they are not tough enough to win it all.

So in conclusion, what we need is.

1.Stars that dont allow themselves to be walked all over.

2.Coaches who ensure every player is grinding every play out to the maximum ability.

3.A GM who understands that modeling a team after only one aspect(skill) of the Wings success is foolish.

[wallstreetamigo]

When you're down in a game in the third period do you want your best shot at scoring in the box for 5 minutes? We only had two real scoring threats left at that point of the series and Marchand was doing his best to goad our best chance into the box. Marchand is a weasel for going after a Sedin but it was also a smart ploy on his part to try and get our best chance to score into the penalty box.

[Drakrami]

We don't have enough skills on this team. This is so true. The only skilled players we have is the Sedins; even Kesler I wouldn't consider as skillful. We need to get a forward with some skills this summer so it brings some creativity and spark to our offense; it could be from one of our prospects like Jensen. Not to mention a new coach helps a lot.

[Bodee]

I agree with your general statement but disagree with your evaluation of it. The Canucks never seceded trying to follow the Detroit mold because well they didn't really follow it they just said they wanted to.

First coaching, AV was so far removed from coaching a redwings style game. He wouldn't reward players for playing well and stuck to his defensive minded favorites regardless of there play.

The twins, they are great puck possession players that would fit the Detroit mold but you have to remover Detroit has had a first line and really two second lines that can score. The Canucks have never come close to this, our team the last few years has been a first line and two third lines that can't score. Not going to win games without a line that can take the pressure off the first line.

Detroit has been a team that developed great offensive young players, look at the nucks they have traded away there youn talent for plugs. Detroit style team building? No.

It's not that building a Detroit style team is a bad idea we should have given it a go it would have been fun to watch but we would have needed a new coach long ago and a GM that could actually build a Detroit style team, MG is not that man.

[Bodee]

they play like they got size, that is the important thing

[Bodee]

I have to agree to a certain extent. The Sedins are not going to deter anyone from doing that stuff, nor should they have to though. Their job, as Baggins suggests here, is to score goals - especially at times like those.

Where I think that kind of stuff will diminish a bit is if the Canucks can surround the Sedins with some legitimate toughness on a consistent basis. And it needs to be from day 1 of the season that they get to play with a few guys who will start reinforcing the idea that if you touch the Sedins you will eventually pay a price. Even better, make them pay a price BEFORE they do it. That kind of intimidation will do wonders for the Sedins imo.

Everyone is slagging on the Sedins but they need to be protected better and this entire team needs to be willing to take a stand for each other instead of skating away and hoping for a power play. I can understand the Sedins doing it. Their job is to get goals, especially on the PP. But when the only guy who sticks up for one of your franchise players in the SCF is Ballard, something is wrong.

Gillis needs to bring in a guy like Clarkson, Clowe, etc. for some of that skilled toughness that can play. If that doesn't happen (and let's face it, it is very unlikely to) the team desperately needs Kassian to step into a key role doing the same type of stuff. They need to trust him through his mistakes and build his confidence and in return he needs to improve his conditioning and his effort level game in and game out.

[Mountain Dew]

Here is some proof that Daniel can stand up for himself:

http://video.canucks...onsole?id=68695

Is this how people wanted him to react against Marchand's antics?

[73 Percent]

They have played far from mistake free, just watching this Chi series, they give up odd man rushes like it's going outta style. Until recently, their top players didn't even produce much, goalie is far from a star. What they do do, is play hard and force themselves to win regardless of what may have happened on the last play. Even when getting hemmed in, they come back and push. We just seem to spiral down and down. Curse and quicksand.

[babych]

Funny - in the regular season Vancouver and Detroit both had a scoring rate of 2.54 g/g. In the post-season, Detroit has maintained the same scoring pace while Vancouver dropped to 2.00.

When the team doesn't show up in the playoffs is that a coaching issue or player issue?

[puckinaround]

^{We don't have enough skills on this team. This is so true. The only skilled players we have is the Sedins; even Kesler I wouldn't consider as skillful. We need to get a forward with some skills this summer so it brings some creativity and spark to our offense; it could be from one of our prospects like Jensen. Not to mention a new coach helps a lot.}

[puckinaround]

Also, Hansen is our shining example of someone who is playing the way they should. No he doesn't score all the goals but he gives it all he has, every shift. When you watch teams that win, you see many players on their team playing like Hansen does. Perfect example is LA last year. They are big, but that's not the only reason they won. Its more about everyone being on the same page and giving it their best. That is what Detroit has seemingly woken up to doing in the last two games vs Chicago. Is it a Coaching issue? A player issue? I think its both

[Cpt_scary]

the difference between the sedins and datsyuk/zetterberg is that datsyuk/zetterberg are far better two way players that can be trusted on the ice in the last two minutes to protect the lead, and if they weren't good two way players Babcock would be smart enough not to put them out with 2 minutes left in a playoff game to protect a lead.

[doobiedoodoo]

The difference is MB vs AV.