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#1 CanucksFanMike

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:59 PM

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After being eliminated from the playoffs for the second consecutive season (and being swept this past year), the message is clear that change is necessary for us to improve our team and get back to being the dominant force that came within one win from the Stanley Cup in 2011.

What Canucks fans need to understand is that this improvement will not happen overnight. It won’t even happen over the course of the summer. Many people think that by making a series of trades and free agent signings this summer, we can get back to being a dominant force by the start of next season. That just won’t happen. It simply isn’t realistic to expect that even though many don’t want to admit it. What everyone needs to face and accept is that the process of getting back to being a dominant force in the NHL will take a few years.

What I have been seeing on here ever since we were swept by San Jose is proposals where people are trying to play super hero and fix the team brilliantly by making a bunch of great moves such as signing Clarkson for cheap to fit under the cap, trading Luongo for Couturier or Strome, and somehow getting the first overall pick and drafting MacKinnon. As I am reading these proposals, I can tell that people know that it isn’t realistic and it won’t happen but don’t want to admit it. As a result, their solution is bashing Gillis for not making these moves that I’m sure he would make if he could, but he can’t because it isn’t realistic. Oh, and by the way, the other GMs in the league actually care about their respective teams and won’t just cater to the Vancouver Canucks every need. I am not trying to protect Gillis and will be the first to admit he has made mistakes in his tenure here, but he is a far better GM than many of you give him credit for.

So, back to my analysis which I will say outright: the Canucks have one direction to go, and one direction only, and that is to re-tool (not re-build) over the next few seasons while competing for a playoff spot. Essentially, I am saying that it is reasonable to expect some change; however it is not reasonable to expect significant improvement in our lineup by September that makes us a cup contender again. What will need to change is our organizational approach to events such as the trade deadline, free agency, and the entry draft. There are a number of factors which prove this theory true.

The first is that the salary cap is going down. With a shrinking cap, we can’t afford to sign big name free agents or make blockbuster trades to improve our team. Yes, this means that maybe we miss out on a big name on the trading block or in Free Agency. In addition, the Canucks have nine players (excluding Roberto Luongo) with no trade clauses entering next season. We can’t just trade anyone we want to anywhere we want. It is a complicated process.

The second thing is that the prospect pool is bleak at best and our core of players is aging. This goes without saying that the Canucks have to draft well in the next few years. But what it also means is that we can’t be trading for rental players at the deadline to improve our roster and go all in. We need to stockpile draft picks and keep the few good prospects we do have. I won’t go so far as to say we should be sellers, but in the future we can’t be giving up young assets and draft picks for a player like Roy who we are likely going to be letting go on July 5. We also need to work prospects into the lineup, give them significant ice time, and let them learn from their mistakes. One of the reasons why coach Vigneault was let go was because of his unwillingness to use young players and give them ice time. This is what I mean when I say we need to change our approach. It will be something Canucks fans aren’t used to, but as I said earlier, we need to get used to it because we have no other choice than to re-tool and compete the best we can for the next few seasons.

Many people will disagree with my strategy and I respect the fact that everyone has the right to their own opinion. But, there is no denying that those of you expecting significant improvement to the team by the start of next season, you are in for a rude awakening come September. Like I said before, it is reasonable to expect considerable change in personnel this offseason, but not significant improvement in the lineup. Despite the fact that the goal of the re-tooling process is to improve, it won’t happen magically this summer; it will take a few years before we are good again and can compete for the Stanley Cup.
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#2 uber_pwnzor

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:17 PM

Good post. You seem like a reasonable (not ten years old or mentally challenged/on crack) guy.
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#3 Warhippy

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:34 PM

No that's more than reasonable. I would go a step further and ask all fans to understand that it is not just a sport but a business and if deals arise that players currently holding NTC's agree to, than anyone is expendable during a retooling process because you cannot build for simply the playoffs as we have seen. But you must build for the possible inevitability in which you are not the team that year, you are not Cinderella and you will be eliminated from the playoffs and have to try again next year.

Meaning that Kesler, Edler and yes even the Twins are subject to trade if they agree to one. No matter what you say believe or want to think is right and proper. It is a business and players are assets to be held or traded. Saying Kesler won't be traded or the Sedins or even one Sedin is like slipping back to 1985 and saying "Gretzky will retire an Oiler"

We do indeed have a bleak prospect pool and continue to give away even fringe prospects and late picks. All of which could have been part of package deals to further this team again not just for the playoffs but for the future. But the prospects we do have are tailored for the holes we need filled. We just need to keep stockpiling them as we collect them

Gillis has done a wonderful job with the cap, NCAA or undrafted signings complete with a couple of seriously glaring mistakes, notably the Hodgson trade. But hey, at least he aint Holmgren right?

There may be a trade or buyout or combination of both. I don't think it's going to be the end all be all trade we want to fix the team now by bringing Ryan Letang Clarkson Coturier and drafting Mackinnon Drouin and Nicushkin in the first round. It will be by changing a coach allowing the few younger players we have to step up (we need a 3C, we have Schroeder and Gaunce, Defense Tanev and Corrado) and shedding cap while trying to build for the possibility that again...we're not the team this year.

The window isn't closed yet but one or two knee jerk trades or signings and it could be.

Looking forward to an uneventful summer of why the team didn't do this or that or some such nonsense after the 5th

Edited by Warhippy, 18 June 2013 - 08:37 PM.

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CIaude Giroux Posted 27 June 2014 - 04:15 PM


He's out for 6 months (which will hinder his development) and he really needs that development. There's already worries that he won't translate to the NHL and he'll end up a huge ass bust.

 

 


#4 Pears

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:22 PM

I agree with you about the prospects. I honestly wouldn't mind trading guys like Edler and Schneider to get help now and get some good prospects to re-stock the cupboards.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs


   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#5 Alchemy Time

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:49 PM

After being eliminated from the playoffs for the second consecutive season (and being swept this past year), the message is clear that change is necessary for us to improve our team and get back to being the dominant force that came within one win from the Stanley Cup in 2011.

What Canucks fans need to understand is that this improvement will not happen overnight. It won’t even happen over the course of the summer. Many people think that by making a series of trades and free agent signings this summer, we can get back to being a dominant force by the start of next season. That just won’t happen. It simply isn’t realistic to expect that even though many don’t want to admit it. What everyone needs to face and accept is that the process of getting back to being a dominant force in the NHL will take a few years.

What I have been seeing on here ever since we were swept by San Jose is proposals where people are trying to play super hero and fix the team brilliantly by making a bunch of great moves such as signing Clarkson for cheap to fit under the cap, trading Luongo for Couturier or Strome, and somehow getting the first overall pick and drafting MacKinnon. As I am reading these proposals, I can tell that people know that it isn’t realistic and it won’t happen but don’t want to admit it. As a result, their solution is bashing Gillis for not making these moves that I’m sure he would make if he could, but he can’t because it isn’t realistic. Oh, and by the way, the other GMs in the league actually care about their respective teams and won’t just cater to the Vancouver Canucks every need. I am not trying to protect Gillis and will be the first to admit he has made mistakes in his tenure here, but he is a far better GM than many of you give him credit for.

So, back to my analysis which I will say outright: the Canucks have one direction to go, and one direction only, and that is to re-tool (not re-build) over the next few seasons while competing for a playoff spot. Essentially, I am saying that it is reasonable to expect some change; however it is not reasonable to expect significant improvement in our lineup by September that makes us a cup contender again. What will need to change is our organizational approach to events such as the trade deadline, free agency, and the entry draft. There are a number of factors which prove this theory true.

The first is that the salary cap is going down. With a shrinking cap, we can’t afford to sign big name free agents or make blockbuster trades to improve our team. Yes, this means that maybe we miss out on a big name on the trading block or in Free Agency. In addition, the Canucks have nine players (excluding Roberto Luongo) with no trade clauses entering next season. We can’t just trade anyone we want to anywhere we want. It is a complicated process.

The second thing is that the prospect pool is bleak at best and our core of players is aging. This goes without saying that the Canucks have to draft well in the next few years. But what it also means is that we can’t be trading for rental players at the deadline to improve our roster and go all in. We need to stockpile draft picks and keep the few good prospects we do have. I won’t go so far as to say we should be sellers, but in the future we can’t be giving up young assets and draft picks for a player like Roy who we are likely going to be letting go on July 5. We also need to work prospects into the lineup, give them significant ice time, and let them learn from their mistakes. One of the reasons why coach Vigneault was let go was because of his unwillingness to use young players and give them ice time. This is what I mean when I say we need to change our approach. It will be something Canucks fans aren’t used to, but as I said earlier, we need to get used to it because we have no other choice than to re-tool and compete the best we can for the next few seasons.

Many people will disagree with my strategy and I respect the fact that everyone has the right to their own opinion. But, there is no denying that those of you expecting significant improvement to the team by the start of next season, you are in for a rude awakening come September. Like I said before, it is reasonable to expect considerable change in personnel this offseason, but not significant improvement in the lineup. Despite the fact that the goal of the re-tooling process is to improve, it won’t happen magically this summer; it will take a few years before we are good again and can compete for the Stanley Cup.

No that's more than reasonable. I would go a step further and ask all fans to understand that it is not just a sport but a business and if deals arise that players currently holding NTC's agree to, than anyone is expendable during a retooling process because you cannot build for simply the playoffs as we have seen. But you must build for the possible inevitability in which you are not the team that year, you are not Cinderella and you will be eliminated from the playoffs and have to try again next year.

Meaning that Kesler, Edler and yes even the Twins are subject to trade if they agree to one. No matter what you say believe or want to think is right and proper. It is a business and players are assets to be held or traded. Saying Kesler won't be traded or the Sedins or even one Sedin is like slipping back to 1985 and saying "Gretzky will retire an Oiler"

We do indeed have a bleak prospect pool and continue to give away even fringe prospects and late picks. All of which could have been part of package deals to further this team again not just for the playoffs but for the future. But the prospects we do have are tailored for the holes we need filled. We just need to keep stockpiling them as we collect them

Gillis has done a wonderful job with the cap, NCAA or undrafted signings complete with a couple of seriously glaring mistakes, notably the Hodgson trade. But hey, at least he aint Holmgren right?

There may be a trade or buyout or combination of both. I don't think it's going to be the end all be all trade we want to fix the team now by bringing Ryan Letang Clarkson Coturier and drafting Mackinnon Drouin and Nicushkin in the first round. It will be by changing a coach allowing the few younger players we have to step up (we need a 3C, we have Schroeder and Gaunce, Defense Tanev and Corrado) and shedding cap while trying to build for the possibility that again...we're not the team this year.

The window isn't closed yet but one or two knee jerk trades or signings and it could be.

Looking forward to an uneventful summer of why the team didn't do this or that or some such nonsense after the 5th

tl;dr either but I suppose I was warned.

Edited by Alchemy Time, 18 June 2013 - 09:52 PM.

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#6 Bananas

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:09 PM

You basically described the Detroit model in your post.

A massive step in the right direction was buying our very own AHL franchise for our prospects. That is huge. Now, our prospects get to develop their hockey skills, rather than their Kieth Ballard impersonations (sitting on the bench).
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Hey CDC! Remember this!?

http://forum.canucks...in-this-change/

#7 CanucksFanMike

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:11 PM

You basically described the Detroit model in your post.

A massive step in the right direction was buying our very own AHL franchise for our prospects. That is huge. Now, our prospects get to develop their hockey skills, rather than their Kieth Ballard impersonations (sitting on the bench).

exactly... who wouldn't want to make the playoffs for 22 straight years. The Detroit model is extremely hard to replicate.
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#8 Bananas

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:13 PM

tl;dr either but I suppose I was warned.


So you couldn't take the time to read them, but you took the time to multi-quote and tell them you didn't read them?

No wonder you pay no heed to warnings. I suppose you're the guy who thinks the "E" on the gas gage means "Ehh... there's still a little left..." right?
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Hey CDC! Remember this!?

http://forum.canucks...in-this-change/

#9 J.R.

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:59 AM

Close to my sentiments. I'm a little less dire in that I think we could still compete for a cup over the next few seasons if we get hot at the right time, have some prospects step up/take big steps in their development etc. You just have to make the playoffs and anything truly can happen from there.

That said I have no delusions that we'd be considered "favourites" either.

Thanks OP, good level-headed and logical post. It's probably not what a lot of CDC'ers want to read but it's far more reality based than 99% of the nonsense on here.
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#10 aqua59

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 10:53 AM

After being eliminated from the playoffs for the second consecutive season (and being swept this past year), the message is clear that change is necessary for us to improve our team and get back to being the dominant force that came within one win from the Stanley Cup in 2011.

What Canucks fans need to understand is that this improvement will not happen overnight. It won’t even happen over the course of the summer. Many people think that by making a series of trades and free agent signings this summer, we can get back to being a dominant force by the start of next season. That just won’t happen. It simply isn’t realistic to expect that even though many don’t want to admit it. What everyone needs to face and accept is that the process of getting back to being a dominant force in the NHL will take a few years.

What I have been seeing on here ever since we were swept by San Jose is proposals where people are trying to play super hero and fix the team brilliantly by making a bunch of great moves such as signing Clarkson for cheap to fit under the cap, trading Luongo for Couturier or Strome, and somehow getting the first overall pick and drafting MacKinnon. As I am reading these proposals, I can tell that people know that it isn’t realistic and it won’t happen but don’t want to admit it. As a result, their solution is bashing Gillis for not making these moves that I’m sure he would make if he could, but he can’t because it isn’t realistic. Oh, and by the way, the other GMs in the league actually care about their respective teams and won’t just cater to the Vancouver Canucks every need. I am not trying to protect Gillis and will be the first to admit he has made mistakes in his tenure here, but he is a far better GM than many of you give him credit for.

So, back to my analysis which I will say outright: the Canucks have one direction to go, and one direction only, and that is to re-tool (not re-build) over the next few seasons while competing for a playoff spot. Essentially, I am saying that it is reasonable to expect some change; however it is not reasonable to expect significant improvement in our lineup by September that makes us a cup contender again. What will need to change is our organizational approach to events such as the trade deadline, free agency, and the entry draft. There are a number of factors which prove this theory true.

The first is that the salary cap is going down. With a shrinking cap, we can’t afford to sign big name free agents or make blockbuster trades to improve our team. Yes, this means that maybe we miss out on a big name on the trading block or in Free Agency. In addition, the Canucks have nine players (excluding Roberto Luongo) with no trade clauses entering next season. We can’t just trade anyone we want to anywhere we want. It is a complicated process.

The second thing is that the prospect pool is bleak at best and our core of players is aging. This goes without saying that the Canucks have to draft well in the next few years. But what it also means is that we can’t be trading for rental players at the deadline to improve our roster and go all in. We need to stockpile draft picks and keep the few good prospects we do have. I won’t go so far as to say we should be sellers, but in the future we can’t be giving up young assets and draft picks for a player like Roy who we are likely going to be letting go on July 5. We also need to work prospects into the lineup, give them significant ice time, and let them learn from their mistakes. One of the reasons why coach Vigneault was let go was because of his unwillingness to use young players and give them ice time. This is what I mean when I say we need to change our approach. It will be something Canucks fans aren’t used to, but as I said earlier, we need to get used to it because we have no other choice than to re-tool and compete the best we can for the next few seasons.

Many people will disagree with my strategy and I respect the fact that everyone has the right to their own opinion. But, there is no denying that those of you expecting significant improvement to the team by the start of next season, you are in for a rude awakening come September. Like I said before, it is reasonable to expect considerable change in personnel this offseason, but not significant improvement in the lineup. Despite the fact that the goal of the re-tooling process is to improve, it won’t happen magically this summer; it will take a few years before we are good again and can compete for the Stanley Cup.

Well put, adjustment takes time . Good post.
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#11 Warhippy

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 11:09 AM

You basically described the Detroit model in your post.

A massive step in the right direction was buying our very own AHL franchise for our prospects. That is huge. Now, our prospects get to develop their hockey skills, rather than their Kieth Ballard impersonations (sitting on the bench).

Excellent point. It is a shame that they're so very far away from the big club and miss having the ability to play and or practice at times alongside the big club (abbotsford) but a great thing to have regardless.

One cannot overlook the simple things, nor the time it takes to develop the simple things. We just need to be able to hold onto those simple things or else they`ll walk or be traded. no point developing players for other clubs like the Oilers and Panthers have done in the past
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CIaude Giroux Posted 27 June 2014 - 04:15 PM


He's out for 6 months (which will hinder his development) and he really needs that development. There's already worries that he won't translate to the NHL and he'll end up a huge ass bust.

 

 


#12 Alchemy Time

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 12:38 PM

So you couldn't take the time to read them, but you took the time to multi-quote and tell them you didn't read them?

No wonder you pay no heed to warnings. I suppose you're the guy who thinks the "E" on the gas gage means "Ehh... there's still a little left..." right?

Nah I think E means Easily enough gas to go where I want.
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#13 lmm

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 10:45 PM

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While I agree in essense, You make it sound like the problems with this team are not MGs fault. They are.
This team is capstrapped and it is MGs fault.
this team is NTC strapped and it is MGs fault
this team has drafted poorly and it is MGs fault
You said the team must re-tool, not rebuild but that is symantics I say tomato you say tomayto, it does not matter when the GM of the last 5 years has brought nothing (except Tanev & Corrado maybe) to the table. Gaunce spent the better part of 2013 at LW, not too many coaches are going to get too far with him in the 3hole.
I agree that the Canucks must not sell prospects to buy rentals but that is what MG has done for 5 years. Only once (twice if you count Kassian) has he brought players that stayed longer than the current season and every year he has bought.
Mike D Gillis (as he now likes to be called) is not a better GM than most of us think.
This team needs a new direction, yes, but Mike D Gillis is not the guy to sent then there.

I vote for Joe Neuwendyk. He sold Roy to Gillis for picks and prospects and got fired for it, he also got value out of Morrow.
You are correct that it won't be quick, because with MG at the helm they are still going in the wrong direction.
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