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Mike Gillis is Destroying the Vancouver Canucks


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#1 In the Slot

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:44 AM

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This is not a 'panic' the sky is falling post. If that is going to be your response, do not read it, move on and don't waste your time or anyone elses.

Snarky, stupid, infantile responses will just prove to everyone your lack of hockey knowledge and maturity. If you have a comment, a fair retort, please do give your views, this is mine. Please pay attention to what I have qualified/.bolded etc. Thank you.

1. If we look at our roster today (and I will qualify it by saying there is still a whole summer to go but given MG's comments about few moves, we really can't expect to see much change), it is worse that the end of last year, worse than the year prior, and certainly, worse than 2011. That is the biggest sign.

2. I would argue, that MG has completely bungled this team up based on his bad past decisions, whether they be trades, signings, lack thereof and misread the impact of the CBA changes.

Exhibit:

A. Raffi Torres. The Canucks have lacked physicality, even in their run, when they came up against the Bruins, the lack of size, physical pushback was apparent. As such, he lets our leading hitter, a guy who plays with an edge, has speed and can score from the 3rd line walk over 750k. He then tries to trade for him last year. This is a blatant example of poor decision making, which he presented to the entire NHL by trying to back track.

B. Our 4th line. After seeing that we did not match up well against Boston, then LA physically, and acknowledging (albeit after 2 years) that the playoffs in the west are a different game where size wins, he brings us Weiss and Sestito. Weiss is a fast player who barely hits. Put in perspective, Dale Weiss was not even in the top 100 in hits in the NHL last year. Something is wrong when Stephen Gionta has more hits than our apparent 'toughness' and grit. Again, that is an MG decision to allow Torres and Tanner Glass to walk. Players who understood their roles and played them well. Sestito is usesless and we all know that. He cannot skate, is big but gets beaten up by heavyweights, I am not even wasting time on that one.

C. Maxim Lappierre. He was our leader in hits over the last 3 years, on a team clearly lacking in physicality. He was a good faceoff man and an excellent 4c. He was the only legitimate NHL'er on that 4th line and we have replaced him with Richardson who is under 50% in his faceoffs over the last 3 years, is smaller by 3 inches, and not a hitter. I fail to see any logic here and truly wonder what the hell is going through Gillis's mind.

D. Booth and Ballard deals. 2 deals that were poor decisions in terms of what our needs were and cap space. We neither addressed our needs at the time (a number 5/6 d - Ballard is a 3-4) and a top 6 winger, and at the same time took on alot of cap that handcuffed the team.

E. MayRay over Grabner. Not whining - fact. Grabner is proving to be a better, more effective player and MayRay was just let walk.

F. Luongo's contract - nuff said

G. CoHo for Kassian. CoHo needed to be moved, but the 'spin' MG gave the fans about needing size is a bit ironic of a number of reasons. 1. He had just let size go in Torres and Glass. 2 Kassian was clearly not ready to provide the type of impact that CoHo was providing. I like Kassian, and if developed properly could turn into a terrific player, but the timing and thus return for that player was sub par.

H. Our problem at 3c. MG was well aware, and stated in the media, that prior to the summer, he expected that Manny would not be able to play. He was aware that Kesler was hurt, and has had a history of injuries such that having a player who could slot into a 2c role from 3c was important. He made no moves, was offered Kadri and Bozak for Luongo, which was turned down (again another example of his stupidity). He has still not addressed this issue and given his cap constraints cannot.

I. Roy - giving up a decent defensive prospect and a 2nd round pick for a rental who is small, when we need a 3c who had size and could take hard defensive minutes and draws away from Kesler. Again, wrong player, wrong time, bad return

J. Schneider - we all know this was a poorly executed trade, something MG seems to be an expert at, giving up young talent for less that its value. Moreover, we don't even know if Luongo will report, amazing the stupidity of this man (MG). Trade your most valuable asset for a pick/potential without even knowing if the other guy is even going to report, let alone want to play here/ have his heart in it even if he does. Focus matters in goaltending, we just gave away a future vezina winner for a guy who even if he's here, has had an issue with his emotional side of the game/focus and is showing us he will have issues with it even if he comes back. Great foresight, great insight into a players mindset.

My issue is, what is MG's "plan" here? Clearly, the team the way it stands right now, cannot challenge for a cup. Anyone who thinks it can is really being absurd, and this is coming from a 25 yr fan. So what is he doing? He's not 'resetting' and he's not 'going for it'

He has:
  • allowed size that can play the game to walk when its been a big part of what we are lacking. (Torres, Glass, Lappierre)
  • he has made repeatedly poor trades both in return and timing (Booth, Ballard, Hodgson, Schnieder, Grabner, Roy)
  • he has taken on bad contracts that are either overpaying for a positional need, or not playing to their expectations. (Ballard, Booth)
  • he never addressed our issues at center (Roy???) even though he knew well in advance we had issues - his own words on Manny and aware Kesler was injured and oft injured
  • he wasn't able to move luongo
  • our young depth is better but given what he gave up, isn't commensurate, ie no 'gamebreakers' after trading Schneider (a top 3 young goaltender) and Hodgson
  • Our ability to win the cup in the next 2 years (Sedin window) is worse
  • Our future is not 'set' given the lack of a game breaker - sure we have some solid 2/3/4 youth (we hope) but no one to replace the Sedins and put people in the seats. (Sorry but Shinkaruk and Horvat still haven't proven a thing folks), and look what we gave up.
  • So he has neither improved our chances now, nor improved our chances in the future - isn't that his job?
So what's his plan? Is he putting a team together that will limp into the playoffs then get knocked out? What's the point? As we all know the Sedin's window is 2 years, if you're not going to take advantage of it gut the team, and if that were the case Lou should have been moved for a salary dump vs the ridiculous hockey trade he tried to make.

I fear this man really no longer has a plan. He is to fearful to make a move, so he over analyzes, takes too much time, then realizes at the last minute he's boxed into a corner and panics and makes a bad decision. His strategic decision making is terrible and it can be seen above through the confluence of bad decisions he has made, and has forced himself into.

Get ready for some really bad hockey folks. I hope Acquilini likes empty seats, he's going to see alot of them this year.

MG has made a mockery out of this team, and is now rivaling John Ferguson as one of the worst GM's in hockey history.

Many people rationalize one or two of these issues away in defense of MG. However, it is always easy to rationalize issues away when you compartmentalize them. When you aggregate issues, you tend to see the whole picture. As I have done here, I have aggregated many of his errors. Sure, one can argue its hindsight, but given his job is to be strategic and think forward, if you look at these decisions together you start seeing a real picture of what he has accomplished.

All MG has accomplished, is to make this team weaker in the short run, and in the long run. There is potential in the long run, but we gave up PROVEN young players to 'restock' because of his errors.

Giving up proven players for potential is never smart, that is adding risk.

MG is a blatant failure.

Edited by In the Slot, 06 July 2013 - 04:47 AM.

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#2 Papayas

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:58 AM

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fans like you are the ones who are destroying this team. Fans like you over value the assets we let go or didn't get, and under value our own players who actually want to stay here.

Then you treat this team like the ones you saw in NHL 13 and bitch on any moves that our GM or players made. There is absolutely no logic behind your arguments other than trying to get a change of staffs to satisfy your hunger for new stuffs... much like how a kid want to see new toys.

Gillis isn't perfect, and he made some mistakes in the past, but that's life because he's human. Using hindsight to complain about how bad the deals he made were is in my opinion, a very stupid thing to do.
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#3 Nucks-4-Life

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:59 AM

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I agree on all fronts. Mike Gillis is the master of saying one thing, but doing the complete opposite.

Prepare to get flamed though, my last 3 threads criticizing Mike Gillis and ownership have been locked. Apparently the majority of CDC are brainless sheep that believe the propaganda Gillis spews from his mouth.

He is still blaming the lockout for our current goalie situation. MG, let me tell you something, the lockout had nothing to do with the ridiculous contract you offered Luongo, and in fact gave you more time to find a suitable trading partner.

Edited by Nucks-4-Life, 06 July 2013 - 04:03 AM.

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#4 In the Slot

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:03 AM

I agree on all fronts. Mike Gillis is the master of saying one thing, but doing the complete opposite.

Prepare to get flamed though, my last 3 threads criticizing Mike Gillis and ownership have been locked.


I've been a fan for 25 years. This is the first time in my history as a fan, where I am not looking forward to next year and don't really care. That should tell ownership something. And I am pretty sure the gate receipts will show I am not alone.
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#5 Bagofcats

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:08 AM

fans like you are the ones who are destroying this team. Fans like you over value the assets we let go or didn't get, and under value our own players who actually want to stay here.

Then you treat this team like the ones you saw in NHL 13 and bitch on any moves that our GM or players made. There is absolutely no logic behind your arguments other than trying to get a change of staffs to satisfy your hunger for new stuffs... much like how a kid want to see new toys.

Gillis isn't perfect, and he made some mistakes in the past, but that's life because he's human. Using hindsight to complain about how bad the deals he made were is in my opinion, a very stupid thing to do.


He is getting progressively worse and therefore the team suffers. The two biggest realizations the team had after losing to Boston was that it wasn't tough enough and it couldn't score enough. 2 years later we do not have that top 6 winger he promised and you could argue the team is even less as tough as the team from 2011. That was 2 years ago and he has done nothing to move this team in the direction we thought we were going to. Now we are rebuilding and stocking up on young players. How can people not see that the window is closed and that this core has failed? Do you want him to say it? Really, take a second, seriously, now... Look at the team and tell me where the hell we are going now. Stuck in Limbo like the flames and leafs were.
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#6 In the Slot

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:09 AM

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fans like you are the ones who are destroying this team. Fans like you over value the assets we let go or didn't get, and under value our own players who actually want to stay here.

Then you treat this team like the ones you saw in NHL 13 and bitch on any moves that our GM or players made. There is absolutely no logic behind your arguments other than trying to get a change of staffs to satisfy your hunger for new stuffs... much like how a kid want to see new toys.

Gillis isn't perfect, and he made some mistakes in the past, but that's life because he's human. Using hindsight to complain about how bad the deals he made were is in my opinion, a very stupid thing to do.


read my point on hindsight

please tell me if the following is true

1. this team is better than the 2011 team?
2. this team is better than the 2012 team?
3. this team has better depth than either of those teams?
4. this team is poised to challenge for a cup this year?
4. this team has 'superstar' calibre youth given what we've traded away

please tell me how this team is better positioned to win a cup than it was in 2011.

that is mg's job sir.

please stop speaking in 'generalities' calling people names etc.

I just have you a list of significant errors made by mg that have weakened this organization, and you tell me its not nhl13

I am well aware of that. And btw, I guess your view is once a deal is made, if its bad, ignore it? bc that's what you're suggesting through implication. I gave a list of errors and you say effectively to ignore them because its hindsight?

How else do you evaluate the success or failure of a GM other than the team's record, his track record, etc? Please enlighten us all

And lastly, I can't destroy the team, I have no impact on decisions.

Thanks

Edited by In the Slot, 06 July 2013 - 04:14 AM.

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#7 In the Slot

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:11 AM

He is getting progressively worse and therefore the team suffers. The two biggest realizations the team had after losing to Boston was that it wasn't tough enough and it couldn't score enough. 2 years later we do not have that top 6 winger he promised and you could argue the team is even less as tough as the team from 2011. That was 2 years ago and he has done nothing to move this team in the direction we thought we were going to. Now we are rebuilding and stocking up on young players. How can people not see that the window is closed and that this core has failed? Do you want him to say it? Really, take a second, seriously, now... Look at the team and tell me where the hell we are going now. Stuck in Limbo like the flames and leafs were.


have to wonder, does this mean the Sedin's are moved at the deadline? to me it looks like that's whats coming next...
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#8 Bodee

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:41 AM

fans like you are the ones who are destroying this team. Fans like you over value the assets we let go or didn't get, and under value our own players who actually want to stay here.

Then you treat this team like the ones you saw in NHL 13 and bitch on any moves that our GM or players made. There is absolutely no logic behind your arguments other than trying to get a change of staffs to satisfy your hunger for new stuffs... much like how a kid want to see new toys.

Gillis isn't perfect, and he made some mistakes in the past, but that's life because he's human. Using hindsight to complain about how bad the deals he made were is in my opinion, a very stupid thing to do.


Don't talk crap, you haven't a leg to stand on. The OP is spot on and your happy clapping gibberish won't change that. And I'm not using hindsight .........the mods will back that up. I have 2 warnings for losing the place with Gillis's incompetence.

In any case it is hindsight that lays this trail of cluster--ks wide open and you know it.

I say again. Gillis has no plan, no focus, no imagination, no respect from other GM's, no credibility now with the fans or the players and no idea of how to develop a top hockey team.

It is only imo the fact that he is a friend of the owner that is keeping him in his job. In that respect the owners are cheating themselves, the fans and the fine players we still have here.
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#9 Nucks-4-Life

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:41 AM

have to wonder, does this mean the Sedin's are moved at the deadline? to me it looks like that's whats coming next...


It's definitely possible. What concerns me the most is that if a rebuild is going to happen, it will be a grave mistake for MG to be the one to do it. We've seen countless times how questionable his decision making and asset management are.

But the question needs to be asked, who could we even replace him with?
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#10 Canuckz101

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:55 AM

have to wonder, does this mean the Sedin's are moved at the deadline? to me it looks like that's whats coming next...


As sad as it is to admit, strange things (and disturbing I might add) have been going on in MG's 'war room' in regards to decisions affecting the Canucks. The kind of decisions that leave you scratching your head wondering what he is doing and if he does in fact have a plan in place at all. When he came here and took over from Nonis, he effectively inherited the team we have today. It was mostly built already. What made him look like a genius GM was by not messing with the main pieces already in place when he arrived. All he's really been doing to date is benefitting from the work of the GM's before him (Burke and Nonis). All he has had to do is pretty much just tweek here and there and maintain the status quo. This formula has kept him employed and in the eyes of the fans, it has made him look like a competent GM even though he has not had to be much of one. Now, it has come to a point where he suddenly has to make very hard decisions, where he has to be an actual GM and put his own stamp on the team....where he actually has to BUILD a team. I would say he is floundering right now and is in over his head. He may very well have been a top notch player agent in the past, but when it comes to being a true NHL GM, I am not sure he has the attributes necessary to be successful. He is making very questionable decisions to the detriment of the club. I think, and I am sure I am not the only one here, he should be replaced ASAP before he further mishandles team assets. I know some people on CDC don't like him, but he is one hell of an upgrade and a bonafide NHL GM who knows how to build a team and has the respect of the NHL and all of it's GM's. Oh. By the way, he knows how to make trades as well and built most of our team as well as drafted the Sedins. I say get Brian Burke in here ASAP to clean up this mess Gillis has created.
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#11 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:00 AM

This is embarrassing, I can't believe I just read that, you are using hindsight left, right and center to fuel your arguments, you overreacting to stupid things like letting Tanner Glass and Raffi Torres go. (cause we all know they are the keys to winning a Stanley Cup) and not even being fair at all with your criticisms.

Anyways, since I took the time to read it, and since you took the time to type it out, I'll go through your post entirely.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 06 July 2013 - 05:45 AM.

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#12 In the Slot

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:00 AM

As sad as it is to admit, strange things (and disturbing I might add) have been going on in MG's 'war room' in regards to decisions affecting the Canucks. The kind of decisions that leave you scratching your head wondering what he is doing and if he does in fact have a plan in place at all. When he came here and took over from Nonis, he effectively inherited the team we have today. It was mostly built already. What made him look like a genius GM was by not messing with the main pieces already in place when he arrived. All he's really been doing to date is benefitting from the work of the GM's before him (Burke and Nonis). All he has had to do is pretty much just tweek here and there and maintain the status quo. This formula has kept him employed and in the eyes of the fans, it has made him look like a competent GM even though he has not had to be much of one. Now, it has come to a point where he suddenly has to make very hard decisions, where he has to be an actual GM and put his own stamp on the team....where he actually has to BUILD a team. I would say he is floundering right now and is in over his head. He may very well have been a top notch player agent in the past, but when it comes to being a true NHL GM, I am not sure he has the attributes necessary to be successful. He is making very questionable decisions to the detriment of the club. I think, and I am sure I am not the only one here, he should be replaced ASAP before he further mishandles team assets. I know some people on CDC don't like him, but he is one hell of an upgrade and a bonafide NHL GM who knows how to build a team and has the respect of the NHL and all of it's GM's. Oh. By the way, he knows how to make trades as well and built most of our team as well as drafted the Sedins. I say get Brian Burke in here ASAP to clean up this mess Gillis has created.


I agree...in over his head is what I was thinking as well.

And very much agree with the point on 'agent vs team builder'

Interestingly, he hasn't been a very good evaluator of talent either, given his trades, which is surprising given his role as an agent.

Building a 'team' as I have said in a past post is not just about a 'collection' of contracts/players. Its about roles, who needs to fit where etc.

This is a big part of where he is failing, and it goes to your point.

His career is now balanced on 3 or 4 young men.

Brendan Gaunce
Zack Kassian
Nicklas Jensen
and perhaps a surprise from Shinkaruk / Horvat

If the top 3 don't step in and raise their game this team may not even make the playoffs, as many teams in the west have become stronger as usual.

And the bottom 2 if they can surprise well he looks like a genius, out of pure luck
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#13 In the Slot

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:01 AM

This is embarrassing, I can't believe I just read that, you are using hindsight left, right and center to fuel your arguments, you overreacting to stupid things like letting Tanner Glass and Raffi Torres go. (cause we all know they are the keys to winning a Stanley Cup) and not even being fair at all with your criticisms.

Anyways, since I took the time to read it, and since you took the time to type it out, I'll go through your post entire.


How exactly do you evaluate a player, gm etc or any professional if you don't look at their track record sir.

Moreover, given your cherry picking example - again 'compartmentalizing' vs aggregating a TRACK RECORD.

Would you take a 4th line of

Torres Lappiere Glass over

Sestito, Richardson, Weiss

Which of those 2 is better suited to help us win a cup? please tell me?

And actually, if you watch or know about hockey, the 3rd and 4th lines are VERY KEY to winning a Stanley cup.

Let me explain why:
  • Hitting. Physical play is key to wearing down defensive studs, like a Chara etc. We all saw what happened when a 4th liner (Bickell) was placed with Toews for the sole purpose of hitting Chara. By getting in on top of the oppositions best dmen, hitting them constantly, they tire out. By tiring out, they then have less energy to expend hitting and shadowing your offensive players. This is a hockey 101 basic tactic. This is why your third/4th lines need size and speed and need to hit.
  • 3rd lines are very important for 2 reasons. They add secondary scoring if your 1 or 2 is being shut down, they are the hybrid 2/4 line. They need to be able to hit but also score when needed. If you look at cup winning teams, all of them had big contibutions from their third line. Det - always, LA, Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh, all had big impacts - ie Stalberg, Handzus, Thornton (Bos), Kelly, Campbell, Staal, Cooke Dupuis (pitts run), etc etc.
  • Moreover, that third line takes alot of defensive draws, it plays a shutdown role that allows your second line to focus more on scoring. You have a good shutdown 3, then Kesler isn't forced to focus on just being the Selke winner. He then has more room to play offensively, which creates help for the Sedin's and then makes it tougher for the opposition to decide who to focus on. This then opens up more room for the Sedins, as they say, a 'virtuous circle'.
  • Your suggestion that lines 3 and 4 mean nothing is absurd. They are VERY IMPORTANT factors in winning a cup as described above. If you'd played hockey you'd understand that value. And in fact our 3 / 4 are bigger issues than our 1/2. Sedins and Burr/Kes give us a decent 4 of 6. Our lack of a real shutdown 3c and real 4th line wingers has hurt this team. (and now a real 4c)
  • So yes losing Torres, Glass, and Lappy does make a big difference
  • A "team" is a team because it has roles. All those roles are interconnected. If players are forced to play multiple roles, the team breaks down and it becomes overbearing for certain players. ie Kelser forced to be mr. everything. It is interesting that Ryan Kesler's best year happened when we had a real 3rd and 4th line isn't it. It is interesting that the Sedin's best year happened when we had a real 3rd and 4th isn't it? It is interesting that we went to the stanley cup final when we had a real 3rd and 4th isn't it. It's not coincidence.
  • Its very easy for oppositions when they aren't being hit / shut down by 3 and 4th lines to simply focus on the 1/2. If you are a 2 line team in the NHL you will not win. Anyone who understands hockey can see that through who has won.
Oh btw, Can you also please tell me why Stephen Gionta (5'7'' 180lbs) had more hits than Tom Sestito and Dale Weiss?

Thanks

Edited by In the Slot, 06 July 2013 - 05:26 AM.

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#14 Bodee

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:15 AM

This is embarrassing, I can't believe I just read that, you are using hindsight left, right and center to fuel your arguments, you overreacting to stupid things like letting Tanner Glass and Raffi Torres go. (cause we all know they are the keys to winning a Stanley Cup) and not even being fair at all with your criticisms.

Anyways, since I took the time to read it, and since you took the time to type it out, I'll go through your post entire.


What is your problem. Many people have criticised this clown all the way for 3 years now..........hoping against hope he turns things round but he has just got worse.

It is natural to use hindsight to look back on the man's record............how else is anyone's performance judged? Enlighten us.


"Building a 'team' as I have said in a past post is not just about a 'collection' of contracts/players. Its about roles, who needs to fit where etc."

And it is sad to report that THIS is how Gillis also screwed AV. He never had any plan, he just chucked scrubs at AV and expected him to perform miracles.

Edited by Bodee, 06 July 2013 - 05:19 AM.

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#15 ice orca

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:32 AM

How exactly do you evaluate a player, gm etc or any professional if you don't look at their track record sir.

Moreover, given your cherry picking example - again 'compartmentalizing' vs aggregating a TRACK RECORD.

Would you take a 4th line of

Torres Lappiere Glass over

Sestito, Richardson, Weiss

Which of those 2 is better suited to help us win a cup? please tell me?

And actually, if you watch or know about hockey, the 3rd and 4th lines are VERY KEY to winning a Stanley cup.

Let me explain why:

  • Hitting. Physical play is key to wearing down defensive studs, like a Chara etc. We all saw what happened when a 4th liner (Bickell) was placed with Toews for the sole purpose of hitting Chara. By getting in on top of the oppositions best dmen, hitting them constantly, they tire out. By tiring out, they then have less energy to expend hitting and shadowing your offensive players. This is a hockey 101 basic tactic. This is why your third/4th lines need size and speed and need to hit.
  • 3rd lines are very important for 2 reasons. They add secondary scoring if your 1 or 2 is being shut down, they are the hybrid 2/4 line. They need to be able to hit but also score when needed. If you look at cup winning teams, all of them had big contibutions from their third line. Det - always, LA, Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh, all had big impacts - ie Stalberg, Handzus, Thornton (Bos), Kelly, Campbell, Staal, Cooke Dupuis (pitts run), etc etc.
  • Moreover, that third line takes alot of defensive draws, it plays a shutdown role that allows your second line to focus more on scoring. You have a good shutdown 3, then Kesler isn't forced to focus on just being the Selke winner. He then has more room to play offensively, which creates help for the Sedin's and then makes it tougher for the opposition to decide who to focus on. This then opens up more room for the Sedins, as they say, a 'virtuous circle'.
  • Your suggestion that lines 3 and 4 mean nothing is absurd. They are VERY IMPORTANT factors in winning a cup as described above. If you'd played hockey you'd understand that value. And in fact our 3 / 4 are bigger issues than our 1/2. Sedins and Burr/Kes give us a decent 4 of 6. Our lack of a real shutdown 3c and real 4th line wingers has hurt this team. (and now a real 4c)
  • So yes losing Torres, Glass, and Lappy does make a big difference
  • A "team" is a team because it has roles. All those roles are interconnected. If players are forced to play multiple roles, the team breaks down and it becomes overbearing for certain players. ie Kelser forced to be mr. everything. It is interesting that Ryan Kesler's best year happened when we had a real 3rd and 4th line isn't it. It is interesting that the Sedin's best year happened when we had a real 3rd and 4th isn't it? It is interesting that we went to the stanley cup final when we had a real 3rd and 4th isn't it. It's not coincidence.
  • Its very easy for oppositions when they aren't being hit / shut down by 3 and 4th lines to simply focus on the 1/2. If you are a 2 line team in the NHL you will not win. Anyone who understands hockey can see that through who has won.
Oh btw, Can you also please tell me why Stephen Gionta (5'7'' 180lbs) had more hits than Tom Sestito and Dale Weiss?

Thanks

Probably more ice time and games played after all he is the captain..Weise/Sestito 4th line minutes under AV
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#16 Canuckz101

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:33 AM

Something needs to be done now, and I do mean NOW. The circus music has started and it's too loud for the ears. Mr. Aquillini, own up and realize this man is not up for the job and remove him as GM. Please hire an actual and competent GM with a track record you can't argue with. Call a press conference and hire Brian Burke. He will manage your hockey club and turn this team around. Don't go any further with MG. He has had his time to show what he can do and clearly... the club needs a new leader, visionary, culture and image. I would not be surprised if Luongo is merely waiting for MG to get fired before coming back to us. With Gillis gone and a new coach, it would feel like a new team to him and the source of all his resentments for how he was treated will have disappeared. Maybe then and only then will we see Luongo re-commit to Vancouver and play motivated. I am actually astonished how MG is still the GM and how stubborn and blind the Aquillini's are in maintaining him.
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#17 In the Slot

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:39 AM

Probably more ice time and games played after all he is the captain..Weise/Sestito 4th line minutes under AV


dude really? he's 5'7 his job is to score.

weiss and sesitito have one role...please don't make silly excuses
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#18 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:44 AM

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This is not a 'panic' the sky is falling post. If that is going to be your response, do not read it, move on and don't waste your time or anyone elses.

Snarky, stupid, infantile responses will just prove to everyone your lack of hockey knowledge and maturity. If you have a comment, a fair retort, please do give your views, this is mine. Please pay attention to what I have qualified/.bolded etc. Thank you.

...................................

..................................


1. If we look at our roster today, we don't know yet if it is worse than last year or not? How can you say definitively like it is some fact that we are worse, did you even see our team last year? We didn't have anything in the middle of our lineup to to injuries last year, being healthy alone makes us a better team, not to mention we haven't even seen where players are and how some of the young players have improved.

We don't know if we are better than last year or not yet, we don't definitively, we don't. And for you to say otherwise is incorrect & its just something you are using as ammunition to back your Anti-Gillis agenda, when nothing you say is proven at all.

Yes we aren't the same team we were in 2011 clearly, things change, teams can't stay at the top forever, in Chicago had a major dip for 2 years. So relax, its not exclusive to us, there is a reason there hasn't been a repeat champion since 97 and thats because it is extremely hard to have continued top of the mountain success especially in the salary cap era.


2. Just before I go into each letter, I really do think this physicality thing is overrated. We were not physically destroyed by LA, we weren't even physically destroyed by Boston, we hit them just as much as they hit us, the only time they had the edge was after the whistle and thats where the reffing failed. Anyways on I go:

A. I don't think you fully understand the situation, and I think you are only telling half the story as to what Raffi is as a player, first off it was over money & term, & who knows what else. At the time I suspect didn't see room for Torres in the top 9 (and we didn't have room) and didn't want to be paying 1.75 over more than 1 year for a 4th liner when we had young players and other players who were on the verge of making this team.

Its ridiculous that you think Raffi Torres was a major loss, cause he wasn't, and your not even describing him totally as a player, he can bring that physical play but he walks that fine line and crosses it, he does. And it hurts his team, we saw it in 2011, his hit was the fuel the Hawks needed to almost take us out, and we have seen the suspension he has grabbed the last 2 playoff years, those kind of things hurt your team, and really balances it out. He is also very enigmatic, he's not exactly a model of consistently. And finally, he said he was going to change his game anyways so he isn't running around delivering cheap hits to guys, so he wouldn't even bring that same impact anyways, so your whining over something thats not even what you think it is.

End of story on Raffi, he isn't exactly the player you are thinking of and he wasn't a key loss.

B. Again the fact that you think Raffi Torres and Tanner Glass are major losses is comical. And have even considered that maybe it isn't the personnel, its the system that plays into that? Dale Weise, Tom Sestito, Zack Kassian, exc, These guys can hit, but maybe our system doing revolve around constantly looking for the body, maybe that wasn't stressed by the coaching staff, it wasn't. We have players who can hit, Dale Weise has been among the top of our team in hits, now if he is at the top of our entire team, and there are smaller players like Gionta ahead of him, what does that tell you? Thats maybe its the entire team? Not the player? Again they aren't big losses, its frankly ridiculous you making it out to be anything significant at all.

C. Richardson is probably the same calibre of player, just brings some different attributes, hes faster but can still do alot of things and is still a good bottom player. Your really reaching for things to whine about it seems. Considering we haven't even seen him play yet.

D. This you couldn't be more wrong about, both Ballard & Booth addressed needs, Ballard was brought in to make sure we added a top 4 capable player to the lineup incase we couldn't sign Hamhuis, Ballard had a tough time getting himself situated with the injury early on but he was what was avertised, AV just never had confidence in him, its not entirely Ballards fault, and its not MG's. It was a need and MG went out an addressed it. Just like everyone wants.

Same with Booth, he had consistently proven to be a top 6 forward, and he is a top 6 forward, he has just had a tough time with injuries, he also brings different attributes to the team with his size, speed & aggressiveness. (He brings some of that hitting you whined so much about losing) Yes his cap hit is a bit high, thats why we got him for as little as we did.

E. For this you are simply uninformed and simply wrong. At the time Grabner was not better than Raymond. At the time Raymond was coming off a 25 goal, 53 point season as a 23 year old, and Grabner was still in and out of the lineup, and hadn't proven anything or even locked down a full time job. With 5 of out 6 top 6 forward coming off career seasons (the lone one not being Daniel Sedin) and bringing in Manny specifically for a 3rd line role to change the dynamic of that line, there was simply no room for Grabner, he would have had to come to camp and beat out one of those players, which consider how much AV loved his guys, and how Grabner came into Florida out of shape, it wouldn't have happened. The pure fact of the matter is he wouldn't have made the team, he would have been waived and lost for nothing, atleast we used him to address a major need.

F. You really don't understand the dynamic of it do you? It was a very favorable contract when signed, but the NHL decided to punish teams for signing legal contracts in the new CBA, and thats what turned it into a burden.

G. This point just proves to me your just here to whine and complain. Because this is hypocritical. You just complained about MG giving away hitting ability and stuff with Torres & Glass, now MG brought in hitting ability and a player who can play that same role, and brings even more to the table, and you are whining about that too. Everyone fully understood Kassian was younger than Coho and not at his level of development, MG said that, so I don't understand why you are whining about it, MG was interested in a number of young players, Cody had to be moved, and Zack was the only one available. Again you just digging so hard to find things to whine about its unreal.

H. Your just making stuff up now, its comical. Your just making things up to satisfy your agenda. I would love for you to provide a clear source that states MG refused Kadir & Bozak, there were reports & speculation, but then again there were also reports Luongo declined to waive his NTC. It is equally as likely Roberto turned down a Toronto trade. Is that MG's fault? Is that his fault too? That roberto declined to waive, is that MG's fault too?

I. I find this so funny, you MG haters were whining and crying that we weren't going to bring in help, then we do it, and we do it at a good price, and yet the MG haters still whine. There is really no sense arguing with you about this because I guaran-damn-tee had we not made that move you MG haters would be whining that we did nothing.

Look at what Ray Shero did, he paid a higher price for even lesser rentals, and he wins GM of the year because of it, MG does it and the same people that were whining and crying for him to make that move are now against it.

J. I love how you act like you know market value. Me myself I am a very big Schneider fan. I believe he will be nominated for or win a Vezina sometime in the next 3 years. BUT. To think his value is already that high, is just incorrect. Look at the goalie market, goalies were going for well under percevied value and have for awhile, Look at what Johnathon Bernier got, Look at what Sergei Bobrovsky got last year. Goalies historically haven't help the same value as other assets. Just look at the Roberto Luongo deal. It was a clear win at the time Bert was aging & Roberto was a franchise player, that didn't get "fair return".

Goalies just aren't worth the same, and haven't proven to be, with the market the way it was, I think we got a pretty decent return, and I don't think we really could have gotten alot more, cause objectively I can tell you many other fans from other fan bases didn't think Cory was worth that high pick.


Clearly your just whining, stretching reality as far as you want, not being fair, using hindsight left and right, exc. exc. exc.

If you want to judge him thats fine, judge him on a fair basis and take into account factors he had no control over, also give him credit for positives, but you do neither here.
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#19 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:50 AM

How exactly do you evaluate a player, gm etc or any professional if you don't look at their track record sir.

Moreover, given your cherry picking example - again 'compartmentalizing' vs aggregating a TRACK RECORD.

Would you take a 4th line of

Torres Lappiere Glass over

Sestito, Richardson, Weiss

Which of those 2 is better suited to help us win a cup? please tell me?

And actually, if you watch or know about hockey, the 3rd and 4th lines are VERY KEY to winning a Stanley cup.

Let me explain why:

  • Hitting. Physical play is key to wearing down defensive studs, like a Chara etc. We all saw what happened when a 4th liner (Bickell) was placed with Toews for the sole purpose of hitting Chara. By getting in on top of the oppositions best dmen, hitting them constantly, they tire out. By tiring out, they then have less energy to expend hitting and shadowing your offensive players. This is a hockey 101 basic tactic. This is why your third/4th lines need size and speed and need to hit.
  • 3rd lines are very important for 2 reasons. They add secondary scoring if your 1 or 2 is being shut down, they are the hybrid 2/4 line. They need to be able to hit but also score when needed. If you look at cup winning teams, all of them had big contibutions from their third line. Det - always, LA, Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh, all had big impacts - ie Stalberg, Handzus, Thornton (Bos), Kelly, Campbell, Staal, Cooke Dupuis (pitts run), etc etc.
  • Moreover, that third line takes alot of defensive draws, it plays a shutdown role that allows your second line to focus more on scoring. You have a good shutdown 3, then Kesler isn't forced to focus on just being the Selke winner. He then has more room to play offensively, which creates help for the Sedin's and then makes it tougher for the opposition to decide who to focus on. This then opens up more room for the Sedins, as they say, a 'virtuous circle'.
  • Your suggestion that lines 3 and 4 mean nothing is absurd. They are VERY IMPORTANT factors in winning a cup as described above. If you'd played hockey you'd understand that value. And in fact our 3 / 4 are bigger issues than our 1/2. Sedins and Burr/Kes give us a decent 4 of 6. Our lack of a real shutdown 3c and real 4th line wingers has hurt this team. (and now a real 4c)
  • So yes losing Torres, Glass, and Lappy does make a big difference
  • A "team" is a team because it has roles. All those roles are interconnected. If players are forced to play multiple roles, the team breaks down and it becomes overbearing for certain players. ie Kelser forced to be mr. everything. It is interesting that Ryan Kesler's best year happened when we had a real 3rd and 4th line isn't it. It is interesting that the Sedin's best year happened when we had a real 3rd and 4th isn't it? It is interesting that we went to the stanley cup final when we had a real 3rd and 4th isn't it. It's not coincidence.
  • Its very easy for oppositions when they aren't being hit / shut down by 3 and 4th lines to simply focus on the 1/2. If you are a 2 line team in the NHL you will not win. Anyone who understands hockey can see that through who has won.
Oh btw, Can you also please tell me why Stephen Gionta (5'7'' 180lbs) had more hits than Tom Sestito and Dale Weiss?

Thanks


I explained the underlined part in my big post.

I fully understand the importance of 4th lines playoff hockey. Frankly we haven't had a good 4th line at all, even during the 2011 run our 4th line did nothing, it wasn't very good then either, so don't act like we severly downgraded when that line was a revolving door of players that did nothing for us in the 1st place.

We brought in Richardson, Weise has actually been not bad considering he brings other things than just being a goon which is what you need out of a 4th line, so there, we are making steps.

What is your problem. Many people have criticised this clown all the way for 3 years now..........hoping against hope he turns things round but he has just got worse.

It is natural to use hindsight to look back on the man's record............how else is anyone's performance judged? Enlighten us.


"Building a 'team' as I have said in a past post is not just about a 'collection' of contracts/players. Its about roles, who needs to fit where etc."

And it is sad to report that THIS is how Gillis also screwed AV. He never had any plan, he just chucked scrubs at AV and expected him to perform miracles.


Hindsight is fine as long as you are being fair about it and taking into account all the factors of the situation before making the judgement so you can make a fair judgement.

Its easy to say "The Booth trade was bad" or whatever, but if you look back on it, some of these moves were very good at the time, and alot of them haven't panned out because of factors that were out of MG's control.

Thats the thing, alot of these criticisms are on things that turned out the way they did because of things MG couldn't control. Yet its still his fault, figure that one out.
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#20 ice orca

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:53 AM

dude really? he's 5'7 his job is to score.

weiss and sesitito have one role...please don't make silly excuses

Don't make comparisons in stats then. Gionta is 1st line guy and is pretty aggressive, more ice time equates to a chance to give more hits.
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#21 In the Slot

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:03 AM

raffi wasn't worth it hey?

that's why mg tried to trade back for him? explain please

also your post is full of 'maybe's, wait and see, if this guy works out, if that guy works out' therefore, we are worse of.

risk vs certainty

learn about investing, asset management, risk adjusted returns

you sound like you've drunk the MG kool aid

responses below
  • If we look at our roster today, we don't know yet if it is worse than last year or not? How can you say definitively like it is some fact that we are worse, did you even see our team last year? We didn't have anything in the middle of our lineup to to injuries last year, being healthy alone makes us a better team, not to mention we haven't even seen where players are and how some of the young players have improved.

Response: You ignore my post and point. Why didn’t we have anything up the middle? Again, don’t compartmentalize my post. Look at it in aggregate. My point is MG is destroying this team. Part of that was my point about not addressing the center situation which he was well aware of after last season given Manny and Kesler’s injuries, yet did nothing about. Moreover, we have no center’s of size with professional experience, which is what is needed at 3c.


Yes we aren't the same team we were in 2011 clearly, things change, teams can't stay at the top forever, in Chicago had a major dip for 2 years. So relax, its not exclusive to us, there is a reason there hasn't been a repeat champion since 97 and thats because it is extremely hard to have continued top of the mountain success especially in the salary cap era.


Response: Again, why are we in a bind? Compartmentalization of responses. We are in a bind with our cap because of bad decisions by Gillis


2. Just before I go into each letter, I really do think this physicality thing is overrated. We were not physically destroyed by LA, we weren't even physically destroyed by Boston, we hit them just as much as they hit us, the only time they had the edge was after the whistle and thats where the reffing failed. Anyways on I go:


Response: Blaming the refs? Wow...sinking to a low. Sorry but blaming the refs will not win us a cup. Moreover, if you think hitting is overrated, Brian Bickell and his impact on Chara say hello. You have not played the sport competitively by that comment. I can tell you it wears you down. It is a MASSIVELY important aspect of the game in a cup run.


A. I don't think you fully understand the situation, and I think you are only telling half the story as to what Raffi is as a player, first off it was over money & term, & who knows what else. At the time I suspect didn't see room for Torres in the top 9 (and we didn't have room) and didn't want to be paying 1.75 over more than 1 year for a 4th liner when we had young players and other players who were on the verge of making this team.

Its ridiculous that you think Raffi Torres was a major loss, cause he wasn't, and your not even describing him totally as a player, he can bring that physical play but he walks that fine line and crosses it, he does. And it hurts his team, we saw it in 2011, his hit was the fuel the Hawks needed to almost take us out, and we have seen the suspension he has grabbed the last 2 playoff years, those kind of things hurt your team, and really balances it out. He is also very enigmatic, he's not exactly a model of consistently. And finally, he said he was going to change his game anyways so he isn't running around delivering cheap hits to guys, so he wouldn't even bring that same impact anyways, so your whining over something thats not even what you think it is.

End of story on Raffi, he isn't exactly the player you are thinking of and he wasn't a key loss.


Response: YET MG tried to trade back for him. End of story

B. Again the fact that you think Raffi Torres and Tanner Glass are major losses is comical. And have even considered that maybe it isn't the personnel, its the system that plays into that? Dale Weise, Tom Sestito, Zack Kassian, exc, These guys can hit, but maybe our system doing revolve around constantly looking for the body, maybe that wasn't stressed by the coaching staff, it wasn't. We have players who can hit, Dale Weise has been among the top of our team in hits, now if he is at the top of our entire team, and there are smaller players like Gionta ahead of him, what does that tell you? Thats maybe its the entire team? Not the player? Again they aren't big losses, its frankly ridiculous you making it out to be anything significant at all.


Response : Stephen Gionta had more hits than Sestito and Weiss and is 5’7’’. Weiss and Sestito’s sole role is to hit, forheck and tire out defenses. Your response shows you don’t understand roles in hockey. A 5’7 offensive player should not have more hits than our so called toughness. How you can argue this is beyond logical. You state Weiss was a leader in our team in hits, yet our team is one of the least physical in the league and thats a big issue. Using a comparable of our team is the equivalent of data mining son. Your comp should be the league. He is again behind stephen gionta in the LEAGUE and not even in the top 100 hitters in the NHL, when that is his ROLE!

C. Richardson is probably the same calibre of player, just brings some different attributes, hes faster but can still do alot of things and is still a good bottom player. Your really reaching for things to whine about it seems. Considering we haven't even seen him play yet.


His faceoff % over the last 3 years is under 50%. We had issues in the circle this year with the loss of Manny. We just let a player with a faceoff % above 50% walk, who was bigger, just as fast and our team leader in hits. Again, you don’t address what the hole is. You suggest people have ‘faith’ yet the stats prove we let a better player go. That move does not make the team stronger, it makes it weaker. I don't base evaluations on 'what if he plays better than Lappy". I look at their stats over time, their age, their salary, etc and what it shows a logical person is it was a bad decision based on needs, where this team is in its evolution, the holes we have. Anyone can come up with hypotheticals to support their arguments, track records support arguments, facts, and stats support arguments.



D. This you couldn't be more wrong about, both Ballard & Booth addressed needs, Ballard was brought in to make sure we added a top 4 capable player to the lineup incase we couldn't sign Hamhuis, Ballard had a tough time getting himself situated with the injury early on but he was what was avertised, AV just never had confidence in him, its not entirely Ballards fault, and its not MG's. It was a need and MG went out an addressed it. Just like everyone wants.

Same with Booth, he had consistently proven to be a top 6 forward, and he is a top 6 forward, he has just had a tough time with injuries, he also brings different attributes to the team with his size, speed & aggressiveness. (He brings some of that hitting you whined so much about losing) Yes his cap hit is a bit high, thats why we got him for as little as we did.


Response : We needed a 5/6 and brought in a 4. We overpaid. You are arguing against fact as we just bought him out. Booth has played 74 games in three seasons and is being paid 4.5 million. Again, I look at facts not what ifs, wishes, hopes. You keep alluding to what ifs vs the FACTS.



E. For this you are simply uninformed and simply wrong. At the time Grabner was not better than Raymond. At the time Raymond was coming off a 25 goal, 53 point season as a 23 year old, and Grabner was still in and out of the lineup, and hadn't proven anything or even locked down a full time job. With 5 of out 6 top 6 forward coming off career seasons (the lone one not being Daniel Sedin) and bringing in Manny specifically for a 3rd line role to change the dynamic of that line, there was simply no room for Grabner, he would have had to come to camp and beat out one of those players, which consider how much AV loved his guys, and how Grabner came into Florida out of shape, it wouldn't have happened. The pure fact of the matter is he wouldn't have made the team, he would have been waived and lost for nothing, atleast we used him to address a major need.


Response: Grabner is a second line scorer in New York, Raymond was let walk – fact. We gave up a first round draft pick, along with Grabner (another first rounder) for Ballard, who was bought out. Again, FACT. How this is spun as a positive move by you I have no clue. Again, compartmentalizing all the issues to support your own delusional view.

F. You really don't understand the dynamic of it do you? It was a very favorable contract when signed, but the NHL decided to punish teams for signing legal contracts in the new CBA, and thats what turned it into a burden.


Response : Smart decision when you had a precedent like Depietro already out there and you have a young up and coming goalie in Schneider? Not smart asset management

G. This point just proves to me your just here to whine and complain. Because this is hypocritical. You just complained about MG giving away hitting ability and stuff with Torres & Glass, now MG brought in hitting ability and a player who can play that same role, and brings even more to the table, and you are whining about that too. Everyone fully understood Kassian was younger than Coho and not at his level of development, MG said that, so I don't understand why you are whining about it, MG was interested in a number of young players, Cody had to be moved, and Zack was the only one available. Again you just digging so hard to find things to whine about its unreal.


Response: You don’t comprehend very well do you? I stated the irony of MG’s move on Kassian was he said we needed more physical play, YET HE LET ALOT OF OUR PHYSICAL PLAY WALK – that’s called double speak, its called smoke and mirrors to cover your errors



H. Your just making stuff up now, its comical. Your just making things up to satisfy your agenda. I would love for you to provide a clear source that states MG refused Kadir & Bozak, there were reports & speculation, but then again there were also reports Luongo declined to waive his NTC. It is equally as likely Roberto turned down a Toronto trade. Is that MG's fault? Is that his fault too? That roberto declined to waive, is that MG's fault too?


Response :Only fair point you’ve made thus far.


you want to ignore error after error and compartmentalize as i said. I look at a track record of errors and see it for what it is, a trend of mistakes.


Edited by In the Slot, 06 July 2013 - 06:18 AM.

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#22 In the Slot

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:09 AM

Don't make comparisons in stats then. Gionta is 1st line guy and is pretty aggressive, more ice time equates to a chance to give more hits.


LOL!

lets trade for gionta then and use him as our player to tire out defenses lol!!
omfg
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#23 Brocklovich

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:11 AM

While I agree with a good portion of your post I do find the whole "everyone we vot stinks and the players moved / let go were the best" thoughts. We are judging the Schneider trade as if he was a top 2 goalie and we got a 4th line plug for him.

At least give Horvat a chance for all we know he could turn out to be a mini toews for us and Schneider might completely bomb in new jersey. I like cory but he is going to a high octane division and new jersey wasnt the best of clubs last year.

Letting lappy go was a mistake for sure but the booth deal he gave up a broken samuelsson and a plug sturm. If booth can stay healthy he may legitimately produce under tortorella and be that complementary piece to kesler. If he scores 20+ goals and gets 50+ points how do we evaluate the trade now?

Ballard trade was poor but at the time it looked like it might push the d over the top. The player was grossly mishandled by av which magnified the trade moreso. Also lets not forget that the islanders were the beneficiaries of that and they werent a part of the trade.

Luongos contract stinks no doubt but personally I think its shady practices of the nhl to say no more going forward and then to pile on all these rules and restrictions and then retroactively put them on those deals after the fact. Also he signed it before cory emerged as a good goalie. What if cory flopped or was average and luongo was the unquestioned number 1 the whole time. To be honest I didnt think cory would turn out as good as he did.

Letting torres go was a mistake but gillis has been trying to shed some stigma about the club and the fact that torres has been suspended twice since I can understand why.

Who knows what truly happened with cody, it is a bit telling that he went to buffalo was getting top 6 minutes and is now being shopped by Buffalo as they are having a hard time re-signing him that could potentially lead him to be on 3 teams by the time his ELC is over. For a guy that had been lauded as a character guy that doesnt scream good character to me, still solid hockey player though. Kassian has been underwhelming so far no doubt and I do believe now is his time to pick it up under tortorella. I do believe bigger players tend to take a shade longer to finally hit their stride which is what hopefully happens with kassian
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#24 In the Slot

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:19 AM

While I agree with a good portion of your post I do find the whole "everyone we vot stinks and the players moved / let go were the best" thoughts. We are judging the Schneider trade as if he was a top 2 goalie and we got a 4th line plug for him.

At least give Horvat a chance for all we know he could turn out to be a mini toews for us and Schneider might completely bomb in new jersey. I like cory but he is going to a high octane division and new jersey wasnt the best of clubs last year.

Letting lappy go was a mistake for sure but the booth deal he gave up a broken samuelsson and a plug sturm. If booth can stay healthy he may legitimately produce under tortorella and be that complementary piece to kesler. If he scores 20+ goals and gets 50+ points how do we evaluate the trade now?

Ballard trade was poor but at the time it looked like it might push the d over the top. The player was grossly mishandled by av which magnified the trade moreso. Also lets not forget that the islanders were the beneficiaries of that and they werent a part of the trade.

Luongos contract stinks no doubt but personally I think its shady practices of the nhl to say no more going forward and then to pile on all these rules and restrictions and then retroactively put them on those deals after the fact. Also he signed it before cory emerged as a good goalie. What if cory flopped or was average and luongo was the unquestioned number 1 the whole time. To be honest I didnt think cory would turn out as good as he did.

Letting torres go was a mistake but gillis has been trying to shed some stigma about the club and the fact that torres has been suspended twice since I can understand why.

Who knows what truly happened with cody, it is a bit telling that he went to buffalo was getting top 6 minutes and is now being shopped by Buffalo as they are having a hard time re-signing him that could potentially lead him to be on 3 teams by the time his ELC is over. For a guy that had been lauded as a character guy that doesnt scream good character to me, still solid hockey player though. Kassian has been underwhelming so far no doubt and I do believe now is his time to pick it up under tortorella. I do believe bigger players tend to take a shade longer to finally hit their stride which is what hopefully happens with kassian


my point is take everything you just said, put it in a bucket and look in that bucket

what you'll see is a bucket of mismanagement
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#25 Nuxfanabroad

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:23 AM

While I agree with a good portion of your post I do find the whole "everyone we vot stinks and the players moved / let go were the best" thoughts. We are judging the Schneider trade as if he was a top 2 goalie and we got a 4th line plug for him.

At least give Horvat a chance for all we know he could turn out to be a mini toews for us and Schneider might completely bomb in new jersey. I like cory but he is going to a high octane division and new jersey wasnt the best of clubs last year.

Letting lappy go was a mistake for sure but the booth deal he gave up a broken samuelsson and a plug sturm. If booth can stay healthy he may legitimately produce under tortorella and be that complementary piece to kesler. If he scores 20+ goals and gets 50+ points how do we evaluate the trade now?

Ballard trade was poor but at the time it looked like it might push the d over the top. The player was grossly mishandled by av which magnified the trade moreso. Also lets not forget that the islanders were the beneficiaries of that and they werent a part of the trade.

Luongos contract stinks no doubt but personally I think its shady practices of the nhl to say no more going forward and then to pile on all these rules and restrictions and then retroactively put them on those deals after the fact. Also he signed it before cory emerged as a good goalie. What if cory flopped or was average and luongo was the unquestioned number 1 the whole time. To be honest I didnt think cory would turn out as good as he did.

Letting torres go was a mistake but gillis has been trying to shed some stigma about the club and the fact that torres has been suspended twice since I can understand why.

Who knows what truly happened with cody, it is a bit telling that he went to buffalo was getting top 6 minutes and is now being shopped by Buffalo as they are having a hard time re-signing him that could potentially lead him to be on 3 teams by the time his ELC is over. For a guy that had been lauded as a character guy that doesnt scream good character to me, still solid hockey player though. Kassian has been underwhelming so far no doubt and I do believe now is his time to pick it up under tortorella. I do believe bigger players tend to take a shade longer to finally hit their stride which is what hopefully happens with kassian


On issues like Cody, sometimes you just can't win. Maybe if he'd stayed, there would have been a lot of room-dissension, & more contractual-squabbles. Today everyone might have said, "Geez, why couldn't MG have been decisive, & shipped his complainingass away?!"

In retrospect, I've come to accept this risk as a decision we should accept. Guy wasn't content here.
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#26 Drouin

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:32 AM

Although I disagree somewhat, nice post with all the info.
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#27 Tearloch7

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:41 AM

Those who CAN. DO ... those who can't? .. why they whine and moan and look at the greener grass, apply their 20/20 hindsight and try to undermine leadership group ..

It is summer .. why not keep the judgements until after training camp? .. oh thats right, because you already know the outcome. How boring life must be when you can second guess yourself into a wet froth ..
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#28 In the Slot

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:47 AM

*
POPULAR

Those who CAN. DO ... those who can't? .. why they whine and moan and look at the greener grass, apply their 20/20 hindsight and try to undermine leadership group ..

It is summer .. why not keep the judgements until after training camp? .. oh thats right, because you already know the outcome. How boring life must be when you can second guess yourself into a wet froth ..


you all it 'hindsight'

i wonder if you are a ceo of a company and you destroy it, do you tell shareholders oh don't whine and complain, you're telling me everything i did wrong in 'hindsight'...i made a mess but it's 'hindsight' lol..so it shouldn't matter that i made a mess...that's your argument? lol...very logical! haha!!

undermine the leadership group? Lol...wow..blinders, they've done that on their own

bad decisions, one after another, are still bad decisions and form a pattern of errors.

its called a track record son - please never get involved in any sort of business. you'll drive it into the ground

Edited by In the Slot, 06 July 2013 - 06:50 AM.

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#29 EvoLu7ioN

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:49 AM

I still have faith MG will load up at the deadline.
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#30 Biznow

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:51 AM

I agree with some points and disagree with others.

1. The roster looks worse, but any time you inject youth into your lineup it looks worse during that initial season. It still needs to be done though.

2. I believe management definitely didn't plan well enough for the impact of the new CBA. Gillis often refers to not having a "crystal ball", however a lot of other GMs in the league at least had a bit more foresight.

A. Totally agree, losing Torres was a mistake. He was the one guy we had where the opposition was legit afraid when he was on the ice. Keep your head up when Raffi's out there.

B. Tanner Glass would have been great to keep for the fourth line. Also, one that you forgot to mention, who I think would have been good for the fourth line this season, is Volpatti. The Volpatti mess was a real blunder.

C. Max Lapierre. After 2011 Lappy bulked up a bit, and I don't think he was as good afterwards. Richardson is good, but not ideal. However I think we may eventually see Kellan Lain fill that spot. He's good on faceoffs, and will add some size.

D. Booth and Ballard deals. I actually think on paper those moves looked good at the time they were made. Ballard got the poop end of the stick, and Booth for whatever reason hasn't clicked quite yet. I do remember a number of TRADE FOR BOOTH posts and proposals before he was traded here, and people were pretty enthused when he was dealt here. Now everyone poops on the deal. Hindsight is 20/20.

E. Letting grabner go for Raymond was a mistake. The frustrating part about Raymond was it never really seemed he played up to potential.

F. Luongo's contract. It wasn't ugly at first, its ugly now. If they were going to trade Schneider, they should have done so right after he started in the playoffs over Luongo for the first time. His value was at its highest, and it would have been a good way to mend fences with Luongo. Last season they probably could have dealt Lu, and should have even if it was for peanuts, as the cap space alone would have been a valuable return. They weren't getting Kadri and Bozak.

G. Coho for Kassian. Kassian is going to be good. I still think it could be multiple seasons before he hits his potential. Those types of players just take longer to develop. CoHo sounds like a real pain in the butt. If the rumors are true, he's taken the same attitude in Buffalo. You don't want those guys with a sense of entitlement around your locker room . Their attitudes spread like fungus.

H. Manny Malhotra was our perfect 3c. Then his eye got blown out. Management totally botched their handling of his situation. This may have been one of the bigger bungles in my opinion. If he was injured, they shouldn't have brought him back to play for so long after the injury. They said they cared about his health, but that only came about when they needed cap space. Manny seems to be VERY well respected amongst the other players, and to some it may have appeared he was cast aside. Probably not a great morale move. We don't really know if Manny can still play or not, but MG might have even wrecked Manny's chances to at least try to play again somewhere. I for one hope Manny does get a contract, even if its league minimum so he can at least try, if it doesn't work out he can retire on his own terms.

I. Picking up Roy was a terrible move. It was clear last season they weren't going anywhere in the playoffs. Waste of a pick, and a waste of Connauton, who would have been a good 6th-8th d-man for us this season.

J. Aquilini should have done the right thing and bought out Luongo. There's no way around it. I'll bet MG wanted that buyout as bad as Luongo did. They could have wiped their hands clean of it. We would have had Schneider for the next decade, and Luongo could have signed in florida. People would have complained about not getting a return for awhile, but it would have faded away quicker than this gong show they currently have going on. On the brightside, we have Horvat.

As for your question about what the plan is, I would guess the plan right now is to try to make it through this upcoming season with whatever they've got, then pray to the Roger Neilson statue that the salary cap skyrockets next season.
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