Absent Canuck Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 First thing to go with the player is the hands, then the speed . Sedins are finesse / high co ordination . Once the passes start going tape to skate, and shots shanked off the heel, the gig is up for them. They dont fight or hit or skate fast. I would re sign them but lets NOT give them the 6mil dollar Naslund mistake we gave him before we found out too late. Pay the twins 5 mil each for 2 years then re assess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeburn Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Or they could just sign them to a 4-5 year term with declining salary (commensurate with their declining roles) that would make their cap hits quite manageable, particularly with a rising cap/inflation. $7, $6, $5, $4, $4 = $5.2 cap hit. Yeah. I haven't really followed how all the cap hit rules apply, etc. and also haven't a clue what "1st line" versus "2nd line" salaries look to be in the years ahead. Have seen some kids signed up to cap hits of $4-$5 on 5+ year terms with the expectation they'll grow into 1st line players though, so how $5.2 fits into the Sedins presumably very diminished role by year 5, I dunno? The clincher is just to ensure the team has room to sign/extend their offensive replacements. Cuz I kinda have to agree that re-signing the Sedins as the core around which offense is built long term isn't maybe the way to go. I could also see the value in trading them for picks/prospects, except that the team needs veterans just as much as it needs youth, so screw trading away Sedin vets for youth only to turn around and try to get anything in the UFA market that even approaches what they bring to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I stopped reading when you said 'truths' - that usually means there's a lot of opinion that I probably won't find based on any kind of rational thought in the rest of the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Yeah. I haven't really followed how all the cap hit rules apply, etc. and also haven't a clue what "1st line" versus "2nd line" salaries look to be in the years ahead. Have seen some kids signed up to cap hits of $4-$5 on 5+ year terms with the expectation they'll grow into 1st line players though, so how $5.2 fits into the Sedins presumably very diminished role by year 5, I dunno? The clincher is just to ensure the team has room to sign/extend their offensive replacements. Cuz I kinda have to agree that re-signing the Sedins as the core around which offense is built long term isn't maybe the way to go. I could also see the value in trading them for picks/prospects, except that the team needs veterans just as much as it needs youth, so screw trading away Sedin vets for youth only to turn around and try to get anything in the UFA market that even approaches what they bring to the table. Very loose average I'd say that currently established 2nd line players not on ELC's/bridge contracts would be in the $4-6 territory, 1st line players $6-$8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drouin Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Lol.. rookies aren't ready, and no way we tank purposely like the Oilers/Pens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeburn Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 First thing to go with the player is the hands, then the speed . Sedins are finesse / high co ordination . Once the passes start going tape to skate, and shots shanked off the heel, the gig is up for them. They dont fight or hit or skate fast. True, they don't fight or hit. I'd also suggest they don't play bodies hard, drive through guys, etc. Foot speed is more subjective. But they do bring other tangibles and intangibles that will be useful - even needed - much longer than their skating and passing days. I would re sign them but lets NOT give them the 6mil dollar Naslund mistake we gave him before we found out too late. I'd guess Naslund didn't fit for his last Canuck contract so much due to a variety of factors, not merely age or diminishing abilities (not to negate Naslund's showing in New York of course, I just think there were other factors that played into his early career exist... Heck, even Bertuzzi is still playing the veteran diminished role, and Morrison would be too if he'd been more durable). And at another guess, I'd go with this season being a good test as to whether the Sedins face a similar fate or do end up fitting better with what Torts envisions putting together (than with what AV envisioned did in Naslund's last days). Pay the twins 5 mil each for 2 years then re assess. Gosh, I dunno... I mean, if your bane Hodgson is warranted $4.25mil, shouldn't the Sedins snag at least $7mil as real top liners? But seriously, not bad numbers. Goes with the idea of decent money for 2 years but 3 or more can't be at top line wages? A 2 year contract and then re-assess would be ideal for Canucks side, but to get them down to $5mil may mean forking over a longer contract period? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeburn Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Very loose average I'd say that currently established 2nd line players not on ELC's/bridge contracts would be in the $4-6 territory, 1st line players $6-$8. Really? Okay. I won't argue, I really dunno. Curious what the cap max is likely to look at in the next 1-3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Really? Okay. I won't argue, I really dunno. Curious what the cap max is likely to look at in the next 1-3 years. Higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeburn Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Higher. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 lol I'm here all week. Try the veal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industrious1 Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 It would be a gross injustice to the greatest Canucks in franchise history to just let them walk. Eventually i'm sure they will be moved down the depth chart to a more secondary role when players like Kassian and Horvat come into their own but until then...they are the guys supplying points night in and night out..we'd be crazy to give up on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 They just need some secondary scoring. Last year they had Andrew effing Ebbett, a guy who doesn't even belong in the NHL, centering the 2nd line. Tough to score when your line is the only one opponents have to worry about. The twins also set great examples off the ice, both with their conditioning and behaving like true professionals. They'll have the same kind of positive impact on the kids that Naslund and Linden had on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silfverberg Snipes Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 They just need some secondary scoring. Last year they had Andrew effing Ebbett, a guy who doesn't even belong in the NHL, centering the 2nd line. Tough to score when your line is the only one opponents have to worry about. That's exactly why we will not win the Cup with this core. We have the Sedin's who have digressed to 80 point players and Kesler who has nobody competent to play with. The fact that the Sedin's have made themselves so emotionally attached to our community will make waiting for their retirement a long and arduous process. And I mean that in the best way possible because I enjoyed watching the Sedin's play at the peak of their game as much as the rest of you. However, it is painfully obvious they are on the decline and don't have another Art Ross calibre season in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surtur Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Actually, yes re-sign the twins at a reasonable cap hit that averages less than what they make now, but make them our second line. Build a killer top line for the twins to support and then enjoy the show... basically.. Since even the twins on a decline will produce more then most if any other second line in the league. And unless we hit the jackpot and get a superstar in a trade or one of our prospects explodes with offence to lead the first line. Even on the decline the twins being our second line will most likely produce at a rate close to our new 1st line. They would enjoy more favourable matchups and probably still be putting up good pp numbers. Can't believe I actually posted in this thread though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I’m a diehard Canucks fan and I’m going to bring up some unfortunate truths about the current situation this franchise finds itself in. Let me ask you, the reader, whether you believe the Canucks will win the cup this year or sometime in the next several years? Are we better than the Chicago Blackhawks or the Pittsburgh Penguins? By committing to the Sedins with new contracts we are also committing to the core of this team for the next four to five years. We’re committing to one of the older cores in the league that already statistically is trending downwards. The ultimate goal for this franchise should be to win the Stanley Cup at all costs. Re-signing the Sedins means we won’t but good enough to win the Stanley Cup but we also won’t be bad enough to get the high draft picks that are so desperately necessary to compete for a Stanley Cup on year in year out basis. It goes without saying that these top draft picks are invariably the key pieces that make up a vast majority of Stanley Cup winning teams. The Pittsburgh Penguins have Malkin and Crosby. The Chicago Blackhawks have Toews and Kane. The Los Angeles Kings have Doughty. The Boston Bruins are the only exception when it comes to a recent Stanley Cup winning team having a top five overall draft pick as a core part of the team. The Sedins are arguably the best players in the history of the Canucks but would anyone doubt that their best accomplishments are behind them? A lot of people, myself included, believe we have several prospects that in the future should pay dividends but are these going to be the key difference makers that finally push this team over the hump and win us a Stanley Cup? A very optimistic view would believe that Bo Horvat develops into another Kesler in a few years and Shinkaruk a 30 goal scorer but if this were to happen would it do anything other than address the declining production from the Sedins and Burrows? Subconsciously I think much of the fan base already realizes we won’t win a Stanley Cup with the Sedin twins anymore. The window has closed. This is the least amount of excitement there has been for this franchise since the last year of Nonis in ’08. The Edmonton Oiler or Pittsburgh Penguin model of tanking to acquire may not be adviseable from a business perspective but neither is a decade of mediocrity. I know I will be the subject of criticism from fans who blindly worship our team but I believe the best path to winning the cup in the future does not involve re-signing the Sedin twins. I disagree; I think we should sign the Twins. I don't disagree that the fan base is worried our window is closing? Personally, I believe SJ is a model Gillis is looking at duplicating much more closely than Calgary or Edmonton. That may not be his model, but it is a dose of reality. I don't agree we will be able to "follow"a team led by the likes of Horvat and Kesler to any level of success anytime soon. Dumping the Twins is akin to tanking alla Alberta hockey! I do see that players much like Horvat or Gaunce (Pavelski and Couture) have rejuvenated an older core and (Thornton, Marleau) on the Sharks. I personally believe San Jose will win a cup before anyone in Alberta. Thornton and Marleau have lots left in the tank, as do Hank and Danny! Similarly Detroit let Datsyuk and Zetterburg slowly take over from Yzerman and Federov. And Yzerman won his first of three cups at 33 or 34. What we're really missing is a transition D who can lug / control the puck like Dan Boyle or at a higher level Lidstrom. No, Edler will never be that guy. Maybe SJ needs that guy also, as Boyle is getting older and slower. But like us, they might be one key chip away, and would not be better served by blowing it up. Gillis is currently doing most things right (stopped bleeding and heading in the wrong direction this summer) to get us back on track except targeting our actual biggest need. Canuck nation should stop all other activity, and start demanding we find a way to acquire the defender who can rejuvenate our transition game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 That's exactly why we will not win the Cup with this core. We have the Sedin's who have digressed to 80 point players and Kesler who has nobody competent to play with. The fact that the Sedin's have made themselves so emotionally attached to our community will make waiting for their retirement a long and arduous process. And I mean that in the best way possible because I enjoyed watching the Sedin's play at the peak of their game as much as the rest of you. However, it is painfully obvious they are on the decline and don't have another Art Ross calibre season in them. Any perceived "decline" last year was based much more on having absolutely zero scoring depth outside of them in combination with a weird lockout shortened season and the NHL regressing to clutch and grab. They're just as capable of players a they were two years ago. Hell by the looks of them, they look even more fit this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaguez Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Wtf...I don't even....you just...for the...how the hell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 That's exactly why we will not win the Cup with this core. We have the Sedin's who have digressed to 80 point players and Kesler who has nobody competent to play with. The fact that the Sedin's have made themselves so emotionally attached to our community will make waiting for their retirement a long and arduous process. And I mean that in the best way possible because I enjoyed watching the Sedin's play at the peak of their game as much as the rest of you. However, it is painfully obvious they are on the decline and don't have another Art Ross calibre season in them. Tell that to the Jagr detractors a few years back in New York....he was old no linemates didn't have it in him and then..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I could have said it better and clearer but I generally agree with this poster, as I almost always do... flatterer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dildo_baggins Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 This Fan Base is Scared of the Future and punishes anyone for voicing their opinion of it, we all have to agree this team is on the downslide, not to say we can't be contenders still.. but when it comes to trading for our future...it's a huge I agree you can not replace 150 per season, but what has that 150 points done for us? Smyl, Linden, naslund and bure all were fan favorites and point producers ... what is hanging from our rafters beyond there #'s and a few conference championships Linden got us Bert and McCabe Bure - Jovo and a few parts and a 1st rounder (sadly we wasted the pick on Nathan Smith) Nassy - we let walk and go nothing for him and well We waited to long for any form of a return for luongo.. look how that played out.. And Do we want to end up like calgary, and the iginla situation?? this seasons trade deadline the sedins will be in HIGH DEMAND and will fetch us an amazing return + draft picks (the hard part is their NTC's, they'll want to go as a package, and not many teams have the 12.2 million in cap space to get them. So chances are they are not going anywhere! And lets hope we have that 1 season we have all been waiting for !!! and this topic becomes a moot point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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