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A call by Ujjal Dosanjh/others to have mandatory education for immigrants


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#1 canuckbeliever

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:01 PM

Some people are going to term this as racist but I actually agree with it. People should be allowed into Canada as long as they understand certain values and are willing to follow them (ie equality for women)





Foreign-born immigrants, most of them originally from Asia, now make up 40 per cent of the population in the Metro Vancouver region. That’s nearly double that of Canada as a whole.
But it’s clear many B.C. residents are unhappy about that. They want to pull up the drawbridge and slow down both population and economic growth.
New immigrants, meanwhile, often find the Lower Mainland a hard place in which to find affordable housing, suitable work ... and to fit in socially.
There seems to be a major disconnect between newcomers and longtime residents, especially when it comes to conflicting attitudes over women’s place in society.
Veteran Vancouver immigration lawyer Richard Kurland thinks the onus should be on the newcomers to help bridge that gap.
He wants prospective immigrants to B.C. to have to sign a document stating they’ll respect Canadian values.
British Columbia, Kurland suggests, should follow the lead of Quebec and ensure newcomers fully understand Canadian and British Columbian norms of behaviour.
“Quebec has looked at this. Quebec has made the decision to require a signature from a prospective immigrant that they will abide by Quebec values,” Kurland told me.
“They are not eligible to immigrate unless that document is on file. It’s part of the immigration process.”
Kurland points out that immigrants to B.C. are only made aware of Canadian values “at the citizenship stage.” That’s seven years after they arrive here — four years before they are eligible for citizenship and a further three years until they’re processed. “That’s way too late to discover that family violence is un-Canadian,” he said.
Kurland stresses he didn’t mean to stereotype all immigrants as misogynists or polygamists. But he insists they should all be made aware in advance of the social rules of the jurisdiction to which they’re destined.
“They’re choosing a new home,” he said.
“At a minimum, you should know what the house rules look like before you sign the immigration application.”
Former NDP premier Ujjal Dosanjh, however, questions whether “signing a document means anything.” But he does believe newcomers, either before they come or after they arrive in Canada, should have to take a “mandatory course in the political culture and general mores and values of our society.”
“One comes to this country to be part of it, and if you don’t know the basic cultural and political values, then you can’t be part of it.” he said in an interview. “And that is very, very important.”
The courses should be federally mandated and funded, Dosanjh added, and should last a couple of days. “It should be institutionalized so that any new immigrant coming into this country should have to actually read and understand those values,” he said. “And that’s not to say our values are better, just that our values are different.”
The courses should also tackle the treatment of women. “I think we should specifically talk about violence against women and the equality of women and gender equality and not forcing women to have abortions for gender selection and all of those values,” said Dosanjh, a prominent moderate Sikh in Vancouver.

I agree with him. When you come to a new country, it would seem obvious that you need to understand and abide by its rules and its written and unwritten codes of behaviour.
Most newcomers try to do this. They want to fit in, as I did when I first came to B.C. more than 40 years ago. That’s why they are often among the most patriotic of Canadians, as any Canada Day celebration shows.
But immigrants also want to retain their ethnic heritage — for a host of reasons, ranging from the obvious need for companionship to help in finding a job.
Moreover, they’ve been encouraged to do so by federal multicultural policies dating back to the Trudeau era and by politicians anxious to court “the ethnic vote.”
Many still retain attitudes to females that are foreign to Canada and act in ways unacceptable to the majority of Canadians. That seems especially true if they come from Asian communities where the notion of male privilege is inculcated from an early age — and where women are expected to do the heavy lifting to help keep the extended family together.
This came to the fore in stark fashion recently in the trial of Manmeet Singh, 28, who pleaded guilty to second-degree murder in the brazen murder of his 24-year-old estranged wife Ravinder Bhangu at Surrey’s Sach Di Awaaz newspaper in July of 2011.
Reports of the trial said Singh, despairing over the separation, went over to the newspaper office where Bhangu worked and hacked and slashed her to death, claiming she’d been unfaithful to him.
According to a Surrey Now report, Crown prosecutor Chris McPherson said the “extraordinarily brutal” attack arose from Singh’s belief he was entitled to take revenge on his wife for leaving him.
In a Surrey Leader report, defence lawyer Brij Mohan was quoted as saying Singh was the product of growing up in a “misogynist culture” where women are often thought of by their husbands as property. “Nothing can justify his actions,” the lawyer said, but added it would be unfair not to mention the attitudes with which Singh was brought up.
Misogynist culture? Well, that may be harsh. But it certainly is a culture where the relationship between men and women can be very different from here. And when I asked former B.C. Attorney-General Wally Oppal about this, he pulled no punches.
“There’s no question that there’s an inordinate amount of violence against women in the Asian communities,” Oppal told me.
“And a lot of that emanates from the culture back there. Having said that, violence against women is a cross-cultural phenomenon, we know that. But there’s a disproportionate number of people in the Indo-Canadian community who are involved.”
Fortunately, Oppal said, attitudes are changing. However, there are still people here who celebrate the birth of a boy, but not that of a girl. And he is disappointed that, in recent years, so many Asian and other immigrants have moved into their own little “ghettos,” where ill-conceived views about women are perpetuated.
Oppal, a former B.C. Court of Appeal judge, said he’s always maintained one of the reasons why there’s an active gang culture in the Indo-Canadian community is that the boys are not disciplined in the family home the way the girls are: “The boys get a free hand, and so very early on they’re beyond people’s controls.”
Social worker Gary Thandi, who co-authored a 2011 report for the B.C. Justice Institute about South Asian male perpetrators of domestic violence, told me early intervention is key.
So, in my view, is a change in overall attitude among all immigrants about Canadian citizenship. They should be fully committed to it, not simply use it as a badge of convenience or source of free health care.
As former Kwantlen instructor Ray Arnold has noted, it’s time we stopped calling ourselves Chinese-Canadian, Japanese-Canadian or Italian-Canadian and just become Canadian, period.
That doesn’t mean we should not be proud of our heritage. But we should be equally or more proud to be Canadians.
And maybe we should become more insistent about ensuring those coming here are fully cognizant of that fact.




http://www.theprovin...3714/story.html
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#2 Harbinger

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:04 PM

is he being an Uncle tom?
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#3 canuckbeliever

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:09 PM

is he being an Uncle tom?



Nope. I am an indo-canadian myself . I was born here [my dad and his family came to Canada in the early 1970s] and I agree with Ujjal.
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#4 J.R.

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:34 PM

It's sad on both counts that anything like this is even being talked about. On one hand it's sad that anyone would demand you be like them or GTFO. On the other, it's sad that anyone would need to be told that abuse etc are not acceptable and will not be condoned. But that problem exists in all cultures including our own, accepted or not.

I do think anyone hoping to immigrate here would have some level of education and/or work experience. THAT should be our biggest criteria IMO. I want positive, hard working and quality people who come and contribute to and grow our country.
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#5 canuckster19

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 03:21 PM

I'm probably going to lower my status further after what some people think was my racist diatribe in the Annie thread.

I don't have a problem if they have a hard time assimilating, I can understand the hardships being a Canadian immigrant in Europe, what I have a problem with are the koolaid drinking, sycophant feminists and left wing eunuchs who get apologetic when they do something wrong. "Oh they're misunderstood, they don't know what they're doing" "His penis must have slipped into me officer as he tripped over my purse, it was my fault" Yeah cause robbing and raping are legal in what country?

Remember that Canadian journalist who was taken hostage in (was it Eritrea? Somalia?) she was raped for however long while her male colleague was taken care of pretty nicely. Yet all she had to say was that they are misunderstood? Really? Swedish feminist culture is plaguing itself to Canada now? God I hope not.

Pray to Vishnu, or Mecca or whatever, I don't care, but tow the legal line, one strike and you're out.
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#6 terrible.dee

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 03:29 PM

I think you'd be singing a different song if say, you're denied entry because you're not ascribing to "Russian" values in a documented form because you don't agree with their homophobic policies.

Just sounds like a PC version of "let's instill our perfect Western values to uncivilized folks" to me. As long as laws aren't broken and personal rights aren't infringed,


Yeah, I think that's what the whole point of the document is, to make sure they understand the laws and the rights of others.
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#7 J.R.

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 03:58 PM

Yeah but if they hold misogynist views and they aren't harming anyone it's not your job to seek to change them


Out of curiosity, whose job is it? :P
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#8 Warhippy

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:32 PM

No one's :P

I don't want anyone to come up to me and tell me my views must be changed to be a proper citizen if it does no one harm (not that they align with the views in question here at all). I'm sure you wouldn't either. A society that prides itself in having no boundaries with ideas should accept that with it comes people you won't agree with. Too often I've seen people heralding free speech and thought only when it conveniences them.

Free speech is all well and good. But respect the laws of the country you moved to and understand that you left the culture and laws of the country you came from for a reason.

I nearly lost my crap yesterday when this kids smug parents were in my daughters kindergarten class trying to inform the children that Halloween is not permitted where they're from and is against their cultures beliefs and as such the class could not dress up for it.

That really didn't last long.

I understand the article and I wholely respect Mr. Dosanjh for saying what he did. but there is right, and then there is right.

Edited by Warhippy, 17 October 2013 - 04:33 PM.

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CIaude Giroux Posted 27 June 2014 - 04:15 PM


He's out for 6 months (which will hinder his development) and he really needs that development. There's already worries that he won't translate to the NHL and he'll end up a huge ass bust.

 

 


#9 J.R.

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:40 PM

I nearly lost my crap yesterday when this kids smug parents were in my daughters kindergarten class trying to inform the children that Halloween is not permitted where they're from and is against their cultures beliefs and as such the class could not dress up for it.

That really didn't last long.


Good. As that would be them pushing THEIR beliefs on everyone else. I believe that's exactly what Hodor is saying is wrong....just in reverse of the earlier example. Hodor only said nobody should be pushing THEIR beliefs on anyone else. I believe that's regardless of which country you are from or currently residing in.

Edited by J.R., 17 October 2013 - 04:40 PM.

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#10 RonMexico

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:52 PM

If you are planning to leave your current country and moving to a new one, shouldn't you want to intergrate yourself into your new home? If you have no plans to do so, why are you even leaving your current country of residence?
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#11 Warhippy

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:01 PM

I really don't agree with the imperialist idea of sticking to the values of the land. You do what feels right for you, regardless of geopolitical boundaries. The herd mentality disturbs me. It's really easy for many here to say "If you want to live here then act like the people here" but the double standard is quite pathetic frankly. I can't imagine the same people being too happy about having to don burqas if they had to move to Saudi out of necessity, at which point they'll be whining about personal freedom. Why the double standard?

I have no double standards in regards to that.

But the example I laid out still has me seething...

In some instances "When in Rome" is really the best advice.

I kid you not, my daughters kindergarten teacher called all the parents in because this one childs smug ass parents had told her and I quote the newsletter" Your class may not hold Halloween festivities, it is repugnant and disgusting in our eyes. Our religion does not recognize such a pagan holiday. Because it is not a holiday in the religious sense you must disallow the children from dressing up and saying Happy Halloween while in class."

This is word for word what they wrote the teacher and the teacher gave to all of us parents. I would never, EVER step on a persons personal beliefs in regards to holidays or practices (even though I think religion is a sham)

So anyways, there's 14 parents in this class and their teacher and this woman and her husband are standing in front of everyone saying the word pagan, unclean sacreligious over and over to us. And then they calmly said "and your children ill not suffer our daughter these Halloween nonsense customs of your countries"

SNAP

Needless to say, after ALL of our kids lost their minds me and another parent kindly reminded them where they were, where they came from, why they came from there and then politely told them to keep their kid home for Halloween Christmas Easter and Valentines Day.

I am all for people maintaining their heritage and I am all for a multi cultural Canada. but we are a nation with specific sets of beliefs rules and cultural practices and as such I am sorry, please do not infringe upon them because you don't approve, like or comprehend them.

Impositions are rude no matter where you are. And let us be honest here, there are a few countries where our cultural practices would cause us issues if we practiced them the way we do here. Or imagine being in another country and demanding they not practice Eid openly, or walking into a school in the UAE and demanding they not observe Ramadan in front of your kids.

Yikes....
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CIaude Giroux Posted 27 June 2014 - 04:15 PM


He's out for 6 months (which will hinder his development) and he really needs that development. There's already worries that he won't translate to the NHL and he'll end up a huge ass bust.

 

 


#12 Harbinger

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:10 PM

we need one world government so we can have all the differences we want
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#13 Warhippy

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:17 PM

My problem is identifying certain practices as Canadian and alienating anyone who chooses to not follow it. I grew up in a Muslim household and I hold no emotional significance to Christmas holidays. Am I any less Canadian than your carol singing self if I choose to not follow that? Do you see where this is going? It's a very disturbing logic that runs on excluding people not in the majority even if by objective definition they are of the land.

So in a way you are imposing celebrating Halloween, Christmas etc. on people who are Canadian and choose to not adhere to it by telling others that this is the way of the land.

Actually I am doing the opposite. I am asking those who do not practice it to not impose their beliefs on us. Majority rules or herd mentality call it what you will but again let us be honest.

If I pulled what this childs parents had in a classroom in some other countries in the world I very well could have been beaten in the classroom while saying it.

Also I do not sing carols, I find the idea repugnant and Christmas isn't a holiday I recognize anyways, outside of gifts for my kids and to much food it's a silly notion.

I am not forcing anyone to adhere to anything. But to come to another country, and attempt to force such a thing is silly at best. We had the same issues with a JW kid when I was growing up. his parents got angry because he was included in a mandatory singing of Rudolph the red nosed reindeer.

No one person can be more Canadian than another. But I respect the practices people bring to my country. I just ask they respect the practices of my country as they stand. I do not ask require nor demand they join in, but honestly. Don't try fixing it or ending it because you don't want to or have to recognize it because I am in no way saying you have to conform to it.

Again, keep in mind I think religion is silly

Edited by Warhippy, 17 October 2013 - 05:18 PM.

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CIaude Giroux Posted 27 June 2014 - 04:15 PM


He's out for 6 months (which will hinder his development) and he really needs that development. There's already worries that he won't translate to the NHL and he'll end up a huge ass bust.

 

 


#14 HTania

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:19 PM

I really don't agree with the imperialist idea of sticking to the values of the land. You do what feels right for you, regardless of geopolitical boundaries. The herd mentality disturbs me. It's really easy for many here to say "If you want to live here then act like the people here" but the double standard is quite pathetic frankly. I can't imagine the same people being too happy about having to don burqas if they had to move to Saudi out of necessity, at which point they'll be whining about personal freedom. Why the double standard?

I agree with you but sometimes we also need to understand if what we feel right is good for the public.
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#15 Tom Sestito

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:52 PM

Completely agree with ujjal on this.
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#16 Karlsson`s Flo

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:00 PM

For the most part, I agree. Immigrants need to understand society and respect that this is a new culture they are entering. That being said, if their customs and beliefs do not interfere with Canadian values and morals, we should be respectful toward their diversity.
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#17 CBH1926

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:59 PM

I really don't agree with the imperialist idea of sticking to the values of the land. You do what feels right for you, regardless of geopolitical boundaries. The herd mentality disturbs me. It's really easy for many here to say "If you want to live here then act like the people here" but the double standard is quite pathetic frankly. I can't imagine the same people being too happy about having to don burqas if they had to move to Saudi out of necessity, at which point they'll be whining about personal freedom. Why the double standard?


I like your idea about doing what feels right to you.
That might work in liberal and politically correct Vancouver, but not so much in the rest of the world.

You mentioned Saudi Arabia, if a western woman does not feel she should cover her face what happens?
Do you think mutaween won't stop her and enforce their religious views?

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#18 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 07:39 PM

I like your idea about doing what feels right to you.
That might work in liberal and politically correct Vancouver, but not so much in the rest of the world.

You mentioned Saudi Arabia, if a western woman does not feel she should cover her face what happens?
Do you think mutaween won't stop her and enforce their religious views?

So you're saying we should emulate Saudi Arabia's position on cultural assimilation?
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#19 MANGO

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 07:40 PM

if you are coming to Canada, it is because you want to be part of Canada. Not so you can change this country into something else. Then it ceases to be Canada. Yes , you can be anything you want in your own home. Same rights every other person in this country has. But this country is already bending over backwards for immigrants, and they should feel lucky to be able to come here. What about me, euro-Caucasoid male, born and raised here. what happens to my Canada? I don't get a special interest group. I just get to pay for everyone else's.......

Not to single anyone out but. hypothetically, If you are Russian, and you are lobbing to make this country more Russian, then you should go back to Russia....because this is Canada, not Russia. Clearly, you don't like Canada as much as you like Russia, and made a mistake coming here.

Edited by MANGO, 17 October 2013 - 07:41 PM.

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#20 GLASSJAW

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 07:45 PM

lmao conservative people
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#21 CBH1926

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 07:46 PM

What will happen to her is undoubtedly wrong to me but like some people in this thread, anyone there can shake their head and tell her to just integrate into Saudi culture or get the hell out.

If your expectation of immigrants coming here is that they should think and value what you do, then you better get ready to wear the niqab next time in Saudi without questioning or else you're a hypocrite. The road is apparently only one way though it seems to a lot of Canadians.


Immigrants should adopt some values of their new prospective home.
I have lived in several different countries, I have embraced culture, customs etc. of every place that I have lived in.
Being immigrant myself, I have a different perspective on immigration.




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#22 CBH1926

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 07:54 PM

So you're saying we should emulate Saudi Arabia's position on cultural assimilation?


Saudi Arabia is absolute monarchy and has no similarities with democracy like Canada.
Also king Abdullah has to comply with Sharia law as well.
To answer your question, no Canada should not emulate their position.


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#23 ilduce39

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:36 PM

I dunno, I think a little pamphlet saying it's not okay to murder your wife / daughter in law if she wants to leave you isn't overly assimilationist.
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#24 GLASSJAW

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:44 PM

I dunno, I think a little pamphlet saying it's not okay to murder your wife / daughter in law if she wants to leave you isn't overly assimilationist.


yeah, but you wouldn't like it if someone said you had to be a homophobe if you went to russia, now would you? hypocrite
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#25 MANGO

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:45 PM

if you are coming to Canada, it is because you want to be part of Canada. Not so you can change this country into something else. Then it ceases to be Canada. Yes , you can be anything you want in your own home. Same rights every other person in this country has. But this country is already bending over backwards for immigrants, and they should feel lucky to be able to come here. What about me, euro-Caucasoid male, born and raised here. what happens to my Canada? I don't get a special interest group. I just get to pay for everyone else's.......

Not to single anyone out but. hypothetically, If you are Russian, and you are lobbing to make this country more Russian, then you should go back to Russia....because this is Canada, not Russia. Clearly, you don't like Canada as much as you like Russia, and made a mistake coming here.

If you're a skilled worker immigrant, chances are the Canadian government needs you more than you need them. And you have been given the privilege to use your skills on a country lacking men specializing in what you do. So yeah, these immigrants are doing what born Canadians failed to do and making the country better in the process

If you want to help your beloved Canada, work your ass off like these people did. Don't make the mistake of thinking all immigrants are refugees. Chances are half of them are more educated than you ever will be

I'm sorry, but you must have quoted the wrong post, because your post has no relevance to what I posted. And, I am a skilled, educated worker, so you will have to get your attention some where else.
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#26 hudson bay rules

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:45 PM

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Immigrants to Canada

Edited by hudson bay rules, 17 October 2013 - 08:46 PM.

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#27 ilduce39

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:51 PM

yeah, but you wouldn't like it if someone said you had to be a homophobe if you went to russia, now would you? hypocrite


Maybe I would frame my little "you have to be a homophobe" pamphlet, take it out and read it over while sipping vodka. Wait. Why am I moving to Russia?
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T-Bone said:
remind them all of Tbone, remeber me for how I lived, not how I was banned
*sig too big

#28 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:53 PM

Saudi Arabia is absolute monarchy and has no similarities with democracy like Canada.
Also king Abdullah has to comply with Sharia law as well.
To answer your question, no Canada should not emulate their position.

I assumed that your post was an "if they do it, then it's okay for us to do it too" thing in regards to attitudes towards cultural assimilation. Was I wrong in that assumption?
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#29 debluvscanucks

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:55 PM

What will happen to her is undoubtedly wrong to me but like some people in this thread, anyone there can shake their head and tell her to just integrate into Saudi culture or get the hell out.

If your expectation of immigrants coming here is that they should think and value what you do, then you better get ready to wear the niqab next time in Saudi without questioning or else you're a hypocrite. The road is apparently only one way though it seems to a lot of Canadians.


I think the point being missed here is this (bolded print). Not that people have to DO it (what people do/value here), just that they understand and respect it (too). So I don't think it's about the expectation that people throw on some skinny jeans and a concert tee and "fit in/look like the rest of us"...it's about accepting those who do (dress, think, behave differently). As human beings, hopefully there is some commonality regarding values and adopting some new ideas isn't a bad thing or anything to shut down. Why would you? Growth comes through learning and that applies to everyone, including immigrants.

In a sense of community, it's important to strive to learn about and embrace our neighbours, not just move in beside them. To understand them as different but not isolate ourselves from them because they are. Not a requirement because, sure, some people are loners and privacy is important to them...they don't necessarily want to include others in their lives. But, for those interested in that feeling of community and villages raising children, it's an important part of that. It does make you safer and more connected if you have a neighbourhood watch...if you have each other's backs. So this is part of it...in learning ABOUT one another we also break down myths, misconceptions, barriers.

The more we are "opposed" to things and view them in a negative light instead of extracting anything positive we can out of them, the less we expand our own boundaries. Be open to the thought...I think that's step one. When we close doors because "why should we have to" it really doesn't allow for much growth.

There shouldn't be resistance to "learn" and that appears to be the aim here. Because, in learning, we can then embrace things that are strange to us instead of simply misunderstanding them. Criticizing them.

Violence against women is not ok here, so I have no problem with that being mandatory learning before entrance. Period. Nothing wrong with making sure that message is understood, loud and clear. Cultures differ but airing on the side of protecting people can't really be argued.
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#30 ilduce39

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:01 PM

They stopped shipping the mail order brides


Ouch. But... considering some of the Russian girls I know... I think that's worth assimilating for.
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T-Bone said:
remind them all of Tbone, remeber me for how I lived, not how I was banned
*sig too big




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