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10 games in, time for a little perspective.


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#1 DeNiro

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:54 AM

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So we're 10 games in now, which some coaches say is enough of a sample size to kind of see what type of team you have.

After a lackluster effort against an average team today, it's easy for us to start hitting the panic button and thinking this team isn't good enough. So it's important to step back and look at the bigger picture sometimes.

The best way to do that is through a comparison of where we're at compared to previous years at the 10 game mark. I'll use the 09/10, 10/11, and 11/12 seasons since last season started in January and isn't as comparable.

2009-2010

Record: 5-5-0 - 10PTS (Losses to Calgary x2, Colorado, Edmonton, and Columbus)

GF: 28 GA: 28

Henrik Sedin: 11PTS
Daniel Sedin: 3PTS (injured)

2010-2011

Record : 5-3-2 - 12PTS (Losses to LA and Chicago (shootout), LA, Anaheim, Minni)

GF: 27 GA: 22GA

Henrik Sedin: 12PTS
Daniel Sedin: 12PTS

2011-2012

Record 4-5-1 - 9PTS (Losses to Philly, Detroit, New York, St.Louis, Edmonton, Pitts (shootout))

GF: 24 GA: 28

Henrik Sedin: 11PTS
Daniel Sedin: 12PTS

2013-2014

Record: 5-4-1 - 11PTS (Losses to San Jose x2, Montreal, Columbus, Pitts (shootout))

GF: 27 GA: 28

Henrik Sedin: 12PTS
Daniel Sedin: 8PTS


The Rundown:

So basically what this shows is that this team is about as consistent as the Sedins production.

-They have managed to get as many points as their 3 best seasons averaged.

-They have 1 less point than their best season ever, and 2 more points than their second best season ever.

-They have 1 more goal for than their best 3 seasons average. Same amount of goals as our best offensive season ever.

-They have 2 more goals against than their best 3 seasons average. Same amount as 2 of their best seasons including their second President's trophy season.

- They have lost to 4 playoff teams so far compared to 5 in 2010-2011 and 4 in 2011-2012. In 2009-2010 all losses in the first 10 games were to non playoff teams.

-Henrik Sedin averaged 11.5 PTS in his first 10 games during the teams 3 best seasons. He is above that average with 12, 1 point better than his best season ever.

-Daniel Sedin has averaged 12 PTS in his first 10 games during the two best seasons he wasn't injured. He now has 4 less than that average.


This is all despite having regulars like Edler and Burrows out of the lineup. And now having who was supposed to be our third line center injured again. I would say we're doing just fine in comparison.

People say that we've lost alot of offense, yet the numbers show we're right there with our best seasons. And these numbers are all with a bottom placed powerplay. That means the majority of our goals have been scored 5-on-5, which is a huge departure from those past seasons.

Guys like Garrison are a big difference maker so far, stepping up and replacing the void that Ehrhoff left in those previous seasons. Santorelli stepping up and filling the hole that Raymond left. And Richardson stepping up and filling the hole that Lappy left.

We also have never had a D score this many points to start a season, nor have we had a number 1 ranked PK this early on.

Scoring by committee seems to be the theme of this team this year. But you know there's alot more for this team to give. We've seen what a full 60 minute effort can produce so far this season, which was a rare occurance in the past couple years.

I don't know about you, but I like what I've seen so far. There's been a couple disappointing games where we let the game slip away, but no more than in some of our best seasons. It looks to me like Torts has really gotten this team to buy into his game plan, and it should only get better as time goes by.

Hopefully this relaxes some of those people worrying about the state of the team right now.

Edited by DeNiro, 21 October 2013 - 02:01 AM.

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#2 Twilight Sparkle

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:16 AM

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i've come to terms that october and half of november are sucky months for us and the team shows up later in november, early december, then eventually cruise to the playoffs, but i feel under torts, this team aint cruising-- but we're just seeing the same theme of a slow start, but i'd rather have a slow start then heat up, than being sucky all year long.

even tho we appear to still suck against the sharks, for example, torts is still getting used to the western style, and most importantly, our team. torts is in a good position to have been hired in the summer to get to know the team and the more defensive style of the western conference to use his style and learn to adapt that offensive style to the west, even tho he consistently took a sucky rangers team and made it competitive, due to a large part of lundqvist being the most consistent guy-- so torts is no stranger coming here and making the best of what he has here.

look at guys like santo, richardson and weise. those guys are probably the hardest working dudes on the team right now and (well weise was a hard worker last year,m but vigs just buried the guy) they aren't really getting enough credit, while torts throws out the twins and kes, playing these guys, and we're wondering why our young guys arent getting a chance-- well our top guys are being paid top dollar, so he's gonna exploit them, and why not? they're being paid big bucks for a reason, and right now, people are ragging on booth and all for having slow starts, but kes has been absolute crap since 2011. i'm sorry, hardcore kesler fans, but it is what it is. i'm not buying the injury angle anymore. he's gonna have to return to selke form, and who knows, maybe we'll see "beast mode" kes once again, that is turning in to a myth

it's business. torts knows he still has a team that can be competitive, so there's no use to throwing shinkaruk, horvat, jensen, et al, to the wolves like the oilers and flames do to their top prospects. we have a team that can still win and dont want our young guys to be on a losing team with no ice time. torts is already shown us that he's much more different than vigs ever was-- he trusts the players that he has and will use them in all situations, otherwise they shouldn't be on the team

it's something that henrik sedin said and he loves that torts is here now. he pretty much came out and said this team needed a restart in coaching staff, while us fans have been saying that after the 2011 cup run... and even long before then for those who thought the cup run was a fluke and vigs had nothing to do with it at all

Edited by Twilight Sparkle, 21 October 2013 - 02:21 AM.

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#3 Canuck or Die

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:37 AM

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Damn, Hank is consistent! And people say we shouldn't re-sign the Sedins.

Edited by Canuck or Die, 21 October 2013 - 09:59 AM.

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#4 Patrick Kane

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 03:40 AM

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Damn, Hank is consistent! And people say we shouldn't resign the Sedins.


...Really? People say that? Who's going to produce points for Vancouver? Luongo?
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#5 Twilight Sparkle

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 03:48 AM

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...Really? People say that? Who's going to produce points for Vancouver? Luongo?

dude. we should totally sign mike smith. i hear he can score

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#6 bd71

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 04:02 AM

My biggest concern is the ice time for the Sedins and Kesler. All three are up over 2 minutes a game from last year and the years prior. The three of them are all top nine in ice time for forwards. We have all heard the complaints about how AV rode Kesler hard at around 20 minutes a game and now he is up to over 21.5.

I don't know if this is a coaching issue or a lack of depth issue but with the travel schedule for the Canucks this current ice-time pace for top three forwards is concerning, no other top team has their three best forwards playing anywhere near this much. And the increased ice-time hasn't really led to any increases in their production. Two of the three are well off of their production paces for the last number of years.

I do find it funny that generally fans and media seem to think that Torts has breathed new life into the team but it all seems like the same results to me, Sure he's juggling lines like crazy but is that really a great long term strategy?

I know that the team has greatly out performed their starts in recent years but 11 points in 10 games likely isn't going to cut it in this league. We will see long term but there are some concerns that haven't really been put to rest. They aren't scoring enough. In the division only LA is scoring less per game and only Edmonton is giving up more goals. The goaltending has been adequate but it's nowhere near top end anymore. Luongo will likely get better but he's also playing much more than he has in the past couple of years. He's on pace for 65 or so.

I do hope this is just a slow start and things get better but at this point the Canucks are pretty much a bubble team. Excellent top end forwards, great offensive D, average goaltending and a lack of depth. The only thing that has significantly change over the past two season is the Goaltending, it's now weaker.

Edited by bd71, 21 October 2013 - 04:08 AM.

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#7 hockeywoot

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 04:14 AM

Well put. I wouldn't start planning the parade, but its not all doom and gloom.

Something's I've liked so far, somethings a bit more concerned about.

Like:
-different looks (line combos. Sedins on pk)
-new coach rewarding different players based on merit (Garrison, and my boy Tanev!)
-increased ice time for key players
-new additions look good (Santo, Richardson, Stanton


Concern:
-PP. I reckon it'll improve, but will it become a top-end unit, again? doubtful
-lack of PP opportunities...seriously
-lack of primary scoring outside the Sedins (Kesler. Im looking at you)
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#8 Fozzy

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 04:20 AM

Great thread!

I like where we are right now of buying into Torts way of playing.
Another point to make is the teams we have lost to this year. Sharks,Pitts and Montreal aren't shabby teams.

Sharks are one scary team in the West but they usually find a way of blowing it post-season. Pittsburgh was a game we controlled for most of it and a point there isn't a bad effort. Montreal was a game which turned on the OG. Last night wasn't great but we still should of had something from that.

Slow progress but good progress.
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#9 Twilight Sparkle

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 04:22 AM

My biggest concern is the ice time for the Sedins and Kesler. All three are up over 2 minutes a game from last year and the years prior. The three of them are all top nine in ice time for forwards. We have all heard the complaints about how AV rode Kesler hard at around 20 minutes a game and now he is up to over 21.5.

I don't know if this is a coaching issue or a lack of depth issue but with the travel schedule for the Canucks this current ice-time pace for top three forwards is concerning, no other top team has their three best forwards playing anywhere near this much. And the increased ice-time hasn't really led to any increases in their production. Two of the three are well off of their production paces for the last number of years.

I do find it funny that generally fans and media seem to think that Torts has breathed new life into the team but it all seems like the same results to me, Sure he's juggling lines like crazy but is that really a great long term strategy?

I know that the team has greatly out performed their starts in recent years but 11 points in 10 games likely isn't going to cut it in this league. We will see long term but their are some concerns that haven't really been put to rest. They aren't scoring enough. In the division only LA is scoring less per game and only Edmonton is giving up more goals. The goaltending has been adequate but it's nowhere near top end anymore. Luongo will likely get better but he's also playing much more than he has in the past couple of years. He's on pace for 65 or so.

I do hope this is just a slow start and things get better but at this point the Canucks are pretty much a bubble team. Excellent top end forwards, great offensive D, average goaltending and a lack of depth. The only thing that has significantly change over the past two season is the Goaltending, it's now weaker.

the past couple of years, schneider was, supposedly, groomed as our #1 guy. luongo averaged 65 games no problem. it'll be no surprise if he gets 60-65 games this year

we're only 10 games in, of course we're not scoring enough, with a whole new coaching staff and the main boss being accustomed to an eastern style, dealing with injuries and suspensions, that's just part of the sport. something very little to us, can have an effect on any outcome.

torts stated that he doesn't know this team and he doesn't entirely know the western conference style. that's why i said it's best that torts is in the position he is now, to learn on the fly, since he can do that. he's a coach with a winning record, won a stanley cup. he's not an unknown guy that came out of the AHL or some minor league guy

is shuffling the lines a good long term strategy? all teams switch their lines up at some point. we just have a team that can produce something when they're actually shuffled. torts knows the twins are skilled enough to work separate, on different lines, and still make their line mates better, even if they don't score, you have to to look at the little things, like zone time, scoring chances, everything. i dont see why you find it "funny" that us fans and media say that a change in coaching staff could breathe "new life" to the team when our captain himself said that it's best for business. that's just how it works. at some point, you're gonna have to go through changes

saying 11 points in 10 games wont cut it in this league-- every point counts. and saying that on the first 10 games, that's kinda stretching it. if this team were on the brink of contention, you'd have a valid point, but not the first 10 games in

Edited by Twilight Sparkle, 21 October 2013 - 04:25 AM.

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#10 bd71

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 04:28 AM

Also, 4 of their 5 wins have come against the 26th, 27th, 29th and 30th place teams and Calgary. The record against playoff teams from last year is abysmal. 0-3-1 with a goals for and against at something like 16-6. So beating the worst teams in the league and struggling against the good teams, at least they are beating the teams they should beat but this has been a pretty cushy schedule to start with the team still has a long way to go.
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#11 Twilight Sparkle

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 04:35 AM

Also, 4 of their 5 wins have come against the 26th, 27th, 29th and 30th place teams and Calgary. The record against playoff teams from last year is abysmal. 0-3-1 with a goals for and against at something like 16-6. So beating the worst teams in the league and struggling against the good teams, at least they are beating the teams they should beat but this has been a pretty cushy schedule to start with the team still has a long way to go.

a cushy schedule that sees the most back-to-backs in the league. this team has a real brutal travel schedule. i think only the rangers have had a pretty brutal start to the season in terms of travel, but this team has been tops for travel for years

i dont believe in "beating teams they should beat" because, take a look at cbj, they arent gonna go 0-82, just because they're a team that everyone should beat. that's not how it works. we shouldn't have to think about that either, because these teams that we "should beat" almost always beat us, as well as other top teams in the league on a given day
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#12 Peter Gunn

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 04:54 AM

Great Post.

Slow starts over the previous four seasons yet, over that period of time, only Pittsburgh has won more games (183) than the Canucks (180).

All things considered things aren't that bad. Some say they haven't beaten an elite team yet, but look at who Pittsburgh has beaten so far this season (they TIED the Canucks).

The core players will get their act together under Tort's new system, but that takes time and besides, If anything I think the fans should be really excited about the play of the new additions, Santorelli, Richardson, Stanton and Lack.

Would like to see more from Booth though.

Edited by Peter Gunn, 21 October 2013 - 05:25 AM.

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#13 zombieksa

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 05:25 AM

My biggest (and only real) concern is the point system and West's ability to dominate the east which may have an effect on how many wins/points the team will need to get into the playoffs.
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#14 Nicklas Bo Hunter

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 05:40 AM

The only problem with the wins we got this year is that most of them are against crappy teams. Seems everytime there is an actual challenge the canucks lose. Heck we lost to columbus they are only a middle of the pack team. My fear is we will either barely make the playoffs or not make the playoffs yet still get a high pick for the draft like 14 because we still are not the worst. We are a victim of a tough division and I just don't see it happening. I think to avoid being like calgary we need to star gradually rebuilding. Weather that means the sedins traded kesler traded or some of the dcore traded something needs to happen. We nred to get some more picks and a top prospect bo shinkaruk and jensen are a good start but we need more.

Edited by Nicklas Bo Hunter, 21 October 2013 - 05:42 AM.

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#15 nuck nit

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 05:50 AM

a cushy schedule that sees the most back-to-backs in the league.
i dont believe in "beating teams they should beat" because..... that's not how it works.

The Canucks won their first back-to -back of the season so let's not use it as an excuse just yet.
They should attempt to beat teams that are playoff contenders.Comparing their progress to Calgary and Edmonton does not help.
The Nucks came out with an excellent effort against Pittsburgh but still have failed to beat any team that isn't in the cellar.
Booth and Kesler are healthy and that has not been the case in prior years.
Luongo also has to carry the load without Schneids.
This team cannot continue tp ride on Henrik Sedin and convince anyone they are going anywhere in the post season.
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#16 Drakrami

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:02 AM

10 games in, im still bitter about the Schenider <> 9th pick trade and the Hodgson <> Kassian trade.

Literally traded a top 10 NHL goalie and a first line center away for ..... (I still hope Horvat turns out to be good).
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#17 RAMBUTANS

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:03 AM

One thing that's different with all the past years mentioned is the new division. If we can't win vs good teams and not ensure a W against a weak team, I think this team will be like the pre-2011 season, fighting for the last spot of the playoffs. They either squeak in to get annihilated in the early rounds or get bounced the last week of the season.


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#18 Buckeye Fruit

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:20 AM

We are fine.

Have a coach who will coach and talent to work with.

We don't have to know how to beat SJ until April.

CBJ is always up for us and the wings. No shame in losing to them.
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#19 Clinch16

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:26 AM

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10 games in, im still bitter about the Schenider <> 9th pick trade and the Hodgson <> Kassian trade.

Literally traded a top 10 NHL goalie and a first line center away for ..... (I still hope Horvat turns out to be good).


Seriously? Stop whining.

I think Jersey is looking for new additions to their fan base, or even the Sabres. I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms.
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#20 Quoted

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:29 AM

Damn, Hank is consistent! And people say we shouldn't resign the Sedins.


Of course they shouldn't resign - still several good years left.

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#21 Nicklas Bo Hunter

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:36 AM

Seriously? Stop whining.

I think Jersey is looking for new additions to their fan base, or even the Sabres. I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms.

Calm down a fan is allowed to regret a trade their team makes.i'm sure the majority of fans are feeling the sting of those trades. Lets be honest we lost the sabers one but I honestly think in time we won the new jersey one. With the hodgson one we could have.

Sedin sedin burrows
Booth hodgson kesler
Higgins santorelli hansen
Welsh richardson weise

Much better line up...

Edited by Nicklas Bo Hunter, 21 October 2013 - 06:37 AM.

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#22 Quoted

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:51 AM

Calm down a fan is allowed to regret a trade their team makes.i'm sure the majority of fans are feeling the sting of those trades. Lets be honest we lost the sabers one but I honestly think in time we won the new jersey one. With the hodgson one we could have.

Sedin sedin burrows
Booth hodgson kesler
Higgins santorelli hansen
Welsh richardson weise

Much better line up...


Agreed - but there are people here that feel that no true fan should ever say anything bad - even when true or their interpretation/ opinion.

They were forced into the Schneider trade because of Luongo's contract and I suspect got far less in return than they would have liked.
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#23 Nuxfanabroad

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:53 AM

Good thread, but I think we need 20 games to get an accurate read. Particularly with Lu, he needs 10 starts to get rollin'.

Another aspect worth mentioning goes beyond the roster. It's the team's future. We finally have a handfull of prospects worth keeping an eye on. Probably we'll have 2 or 3 at the WJ's. Also our new farm team, to better develop the young guys.

The Aquilini's are sinking some money into this operation; in time we should receive some nice dividends from the investment. Such organizations(with $ & a plan) can usually stay in the upper echelons for a longer period. I'd say MG is steering in that direction.
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#24 Coconuts

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:08 AM

Great thread, it's nice to see someone who's not pushing the panic button.

All in all, we haven't looked bad at all. Yesterday could have been better, we had a ton of shots but more of them could have been quality shots. But even then, it was essentially a 2-1 loss. And I feel I've seen more complete efforts during the last ten games than I've seen the last couple years. It's nice, especially given the fact we usually start slowly. We're not running out of the gate like Pittsburgh, San Jose, or a few other teams, but we're certainly not limping out like we usually do. Torts is still adjusting to the West, and we're still adjusting to the system. I look forward to seeing how the guys progress.
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#25 Quoted

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:16 AM

Even though 20 is a better measure, where they are in the standings already is of a concern: 13th overall with every team above them with at least one game in hand (as many as three).

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#26 Quoted

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:16 AM

Duplicate

Edited by Quoted, 21 October 2013 - 07:22 AM.

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#27 debluvscanucks

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:18 AM

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Well said, DeNiro. You've always been a no nonsense breath of fresh air in here. Please don't stop, we need that to counter balance some of the other garbage and drama.
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#28 Nicklas Bo Hunter

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:26 AM

Agreed - but there are people here that feel that no true fan should ever say anything bad - even when true or their interpretation/ opinion.

They were forced into the Schneider trade because of Luongo's contract and I suspect got far less in return than they would have liked.

Yea everytime I especially hate the fact that everyone loved hodgson then as soon as he got traded the majority changed to completely hating him. He apparently went from a great guy with leadership qualities to being an arrogent punk who is a daddy's boy. News flash people hodgson's dad wouldn't have signed cody for so little money for 6 years. That was his choice. He is a great player who moved on from our team we should wish the best for hodgson he was all class. Mg really threw him under the bus thats all.
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#29 nuck nit

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:34 AM

.500 hockey
The club does not make the playoffs at this rate.
Besides,Edmonton(whom have not made the playoffs in a decade) the Canucks have the worst GA in the conference and only Florida and Edmonton are worse in the entire NHL.
I think it is time to accept what it is until it isn't any more.
Look at Detroit's record and compare because that is what we thought we should emulate not so very long ago.
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#30 Batmania

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:45 AM

.500 hockey
The club does not make the playoffs at this rate.
Besides,Edmonton(whom have not made the playoffs in a decade) the Canucks have the worst GA in the conference and only Florida and Edmonton are worse in the entire NHL.
I think it is time to accept what it is until it isn't any more.
Look at Detroit's record and compare because that is what we thought we should emulate not so very long ago.

.500 hockey
The club does not make the playoffs at this rate.
Besides,Edmonton(whom have not made the playoffs in a decade) the Canucks have the worst GA in the conference and only Florida and Edmonton are worse in the entire NHL.
I think it is time to accept what it is until it isn't any more.
Look at Detroit's record and compare because that is what we thought we should emulate not so very long ago.


You really have missed the point in the OP haven't you. I hope your negativity towards this team doesn't bleed into your real life.

Also yeah lets look at Detroit. We're one OT goal off their record. They lose that game in hand they have and it's a pretty close comparison don't you think? No, of course you don't.
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