cbdoubleu Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Higgins 21 points would have him be: 4th in scoring on LA 5th in scoring on Pittsburgh 9th in scoring on Chicago 4th in scoring on Boston 6th in scoring on San Jose 8th in scoring on St. Louis He is putting up 2nd line stats on a lot of good teams right now. Especially when you consider in the 2 cases where he isn't in the top 6 for scoring, those teams have 2 D-men each, in their top 6. Edit: He would be leading the Florida Panthers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rypien37 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 One an average team...yes. On a cup contender I would consider him a staple on the 3rd line, with fill in duties on the 2nd if there are any injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Only highly offensive teams (like Pittsburgh) will have 6 forwards with 50 points or more, so to really classify a top 6 forward as 50 points seems unlikely to me. Sometimes a player is in the top 6 in order to compliment players that score more points. Higgins does just that. The fact that he's getting points is great, but to categorize people based merely on points is rather inadequate analysis in my opinion. CDC consistently overrates what's expected of a top-six forward. The OP is bang on for what most people expect (50-60 points per season minimum). However, the reality in recent years is that roughly 0.40 points per game (about 33 points) or better is what constitutes a top-six scoring rate in today's NHL. 50-60 points per season is a first line scoring rate. Of course, the best teams in the NHL have more than three "first liners" and have 50-60 points/season players on their second lines. As things stand currently, the Canucks have a chance to be one of those teams. Here's a good recent article (from PITB) on the difference between expectations and realities as to what constitutes a "second line forward" (and top-six scoring) in the NHL: http://vansunsportsb...ner-in-the-nhl/ EDIT: As far as those numbers go, the Canucks are in pretty good shape with their current roster. Vancouver currently has four forwards who are producing points at a "first liner" rate: Hank and Danny (0.89 points/game each), Kes (0.74), and Santo (0.69). Another two forwards are producing at "second line" rates: Higgins (0.60 points/game--just below a first line rate) and Richardson (0.40). Three more Canucks forwards are currently just below the threshold for "top-six" scoring: Hansen (0.36), Weise (0.36), and Booth (0.35). You also have guys like Burrows (0.18), whose injuries and scoring slump have him well below his normal rate of production, and Kassian (0.24), who has shown flashes of "top-six" ability (and who hopefully will become a more consistent scorer). Both players (especially Burr) could quite easily produce top-six scoring during the 2nd half of this season. Finally, there's Schroeder (if/when he returns to the lineup), who has top-six offensive talent and who has shown the ability in the past to produce at a "first line" scoring rate when he's given complimentary wingers and an offensive role (like the Raymond-Schroeder-Hansen line that actually out-produced the Sedin line, in points/minute played, in their games together last season). Agree with you two - and here's another reference to what can actually be expected of players on particular lines: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2011/9/27/2452941/common-misconceptions-how-much-should-that-forward-score Higgins' projected production is elite 2nd line production by those standards - taken over a three year sample prior to the lockout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Kane Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Higgins 21 points would have him be: 4th in scoring on LA 5th in scoring on Pittsburgh 9th in scoring on Chicago 4th in scoring on Boston 6th in scoring on San Jose 8th in scoring on St. Louis He is putting up 2nd line stats on a lot of good teams right now. Especially when you consider in the 2 cases where he isn't in the top 6 for scoring, those teams have 2 D-men each, in their top 6. Edit: He would be leading the Florida Panthers. He also wouldn't be getting 19 mins a night on those teams due to better options. He's also on a hot-streak. Steen/Kunitz have more pts then any Canuck. What does that mean then? I'm just not a big fan of Higgins because of his post-season play. In the reg season, he's good, sure. But in the playoffs... 8 pts in 34gp thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_314 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 The problem I have is, he's being compared league wide. Compare him to CUP CONTENDERS. That's what the Canucks should be. Hawks secondary guys behind Toews/Kane are: Hossa, Sharp, Saad, Versteeg, Shaw, Bickell Sharks secondary guys behind Thornton/Couture are: Burns, Marleau, Pavelski, Hertl, Wingels, Havlat Boston secondary guys behind Krejci/Lucic are: Iginla, Eriksson, Bergeron, Marchand, Smith, Soderberg Los Angeles secondary guys behind Kopitar/Richards are: Carter, Brown, Williams, Toffoli, King, Stoll Pittsburgh gets a bit of slack because they have two top 5 forwards but... Neal, Kunitz, Jokinen, Dupuis, Sutter Canucks secondary guys behind Sedins are: Kesler, Santorelli, Higgins, Burrows, Hansen, Booth, Richardson Props to Santorelli for working his butt off and producing at a respectable rate, but the raw talent of this group is bad. Hard-work can get you places, but it's no surprise the cup winners of the last 5 years were loaded with offensive talent. I think Higgins would be best on the 3rd line, or alternate with Santorelli with a legit top 6 alongside Kesler. Burrows must've jumped into a cobra pit because he's as snake-bit as I've seen offensively (and now he's injured). However, with the talent he has there's no chance his numbers stay where they are. Booth's play has picked up of late too and his playing style should also help him to become a contributor in the playoffs. At the very least, those two should help when things get tough in the post-season. At the end of the regular season I'd expect more contributions from the whole group. Another thing, you have to consider the type of game that each of the teams you've listed plays. Chicago and Pittsburgh, with their years of stockpiling young talent (and good GM's), have the firepower to out-gun opponents. However, do consider that the Pens need to have this firepower since they can't always rely on Fleury to stand on his head (remember that shootout they had with the Flyers?) San Jose's also kind of an anomaly, since they have such firepower without having too many of their kids (except the one that'll Hert you) on the roster. However, Niemi runs hot and cold, plus it's not like the Sharks always deliver either. (- I got nothing for the Hawks, though, since they're just that good. Anyways). However, with Torts at the helm it should be pretty obvious that we'd be aiming to play more of a Kings/ Bruins kind of game, with strong goal-tending and D leading the way. In fact, if you look beyond strictly names and rather at the stats, most of our top guys have scored at higher rates than the Kings' guys in this season, and our lineup's been getting used to playing a similar stifling game. So, while it's valid that there's a need for offensive ability, when you look at the contributions on BOTH ends of the ice, I think they'll fare alright, not great but alright, in the playoffs. Of course, I hope MG adds another guy who can score at a higher rate, and hopefully one of Santo/ Higgins can get bumped down so our team's scoring depth can increase when it counts, but at the same time let's be real and realize the facts, which are that we can't really afford to add too much, and the two-way crop of guys we've assembled likely won't score as much but they should be more suitable for the playoffs in terms of playing that Tortorella-esque defensive style style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zverta Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Higgins is not top six in this league. He is on this team, this year. Keeping this team the way it is while it's winning is completely fine; at least for the year. Any big changes should be made in the off season. Booth's contract will be bought out and Higgins will slot back into his rightful place as the 3rd line winger. Then Gillis should try hard to find a market for Alex Edler and bring in some much needed help on offense to solidify either the 1st or 2nd lines. This will be based solely on whether Tanev or Corrado are able to continue their progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamJamIam Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 He also wouldn't be getting 19 mins a night on those teams due to better options. He's also on a hot-streak. Steen/Kunitz have more pts then any Canuck. What does that mean then? I'm just not a big fan of Higgins because of his post-season play. In the reg season, he's good, sure. But in the playoffs... 8 pts in 34gp thus far. Or before that he was on a cold streak. He's still got a PDO below 1000. This is sustainable play from him, especially given how ridiculously low his shooting percentage is. As for Steen/Kunitz, they play in the East. I can only imagine how badly we would thrash that conference. The East is the new Northwest Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I've complained about Higgins' lack of finish before and probably will again but he really is looking good this year. Even if he cools off a bit he looks like a solid 2nd liner or top-notch 3rd liner depending on our depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Kane Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Or before that he was on a cold streak. He's still got a PDO below 1000. This is sustainable play from him, especially given how ridiculously low his shooting percentage is. As for Steen/Kunitz, they play in the East. I can only imagine how badly we would thrash that conference. The East is the new Northwest Division. Nope. Meh, justify that he's a top 6 all you want. I have no problem with him on the team, I just don't like him on the 2nd line going into the playoffs. Only time will tell if he can carry over his regular season success... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada Hockey Place Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 ..........He would be leading the Florida Panthers. Sorry. Too easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xereau Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Chris Diggins is a utility forward. He can play many roles. Yes, I said Diggins. Cuz that's what he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SofaKing Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Absolutely Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canucklehead73 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I'll be honest when I say I usually refuse to see Higgins as a top six player, I don't think he has the stickhandling to make plays with the puck from my experience watching him. But... He has been playing well as of late, personally I think he is feeding of Santorelli's shifty skating on the boards. Maybe you can teach an old dog new tricks. If he keeps producing then so be it he can be a top six guy, it's not how you score its how many right? Keep in mind he is a 110% effort guy, and when everybody is in playoff mode putting in 110% as well, Higgins might look average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merci Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 He's definitely a 2.5nd line player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amish Rake Fighter Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 apart from the period right after he got traded here, Higgins has been scoring at a 20 goal/season pace for the Canucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegionOfDoom Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 If you put it that way I don't no if any team has a legit top 6, booth was a legit top line before being traded to Vancouver now he's considered a 3rd liner , and burrows is on pace for what 10 points but we consider him a legit top 6, I don't think you can say a top 6 player needs this many points sometimes you need that defensive player on that line so your stars can take more risks and your there to cover for them when they make an oops so my opinion I think Higgins is a legit top 6 and he means more to this club than he is given credit for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 He also wouldn't be getting 19 mins a night on those teams due to better options. He's also on a hot-streak. Steen/Kunitz have more pts then any Canuck. What does that mean then? I'm just not a big fan of Higgins because of his post-season play. In the reg season, he's good, sure. But in the playoffs... 8 pts in 34gp thus far. I suppose it means that the Sedins aren't first line players. Having a better option doesn't mean somebody isn't a bonafide first or second player. Kesler would be a first line player on at least half the teams in the league. Prior to the cap era Detroit's third line was as good as the majority of teams second line. That didn't mean everybody's second line players weren't good enough to be second line players. Detroit simply paid to have two number one lines. Now of course it takes good (or lucky) drafting or players breaking out while on a low contracts to have the scoring depth that former Detroit team enjoyed. Even then it can be short lived as it only lasts until those budget contracts run out. Last year Pittsburgh had 5 forwards on a 70+ point pace. Did they win the cup? They haven't made it past the second round the past three playoffs despite their scoring depth. Playoffs don't come with any guarantees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmotamed Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Top-9! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklehead44 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Well if each team has 3 first liners, that would make the top 90 in scoring first liners. Looking at injuries etc, lets make the cut off 75 for first liners and 150 for second liners. I'll have to go back a couple years to get a full season: 2011-2012 75. Dustin Brown 82 games 54 points (Kris Versteeg, Ryan Callahan, David Backes) 150. Dave Bolland 76 games 37 points (David Jones, Todd Bertuzzi) Hansen was ranked 141, Higgins 129 So Hansen and Higgins would be considered low end second line players. 40-55 points over a full healthy season seems to be the number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamJamIam Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Nope. Lol. Nope indeed. I don't know what I was thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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