fagin Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 None. Just sheer ignorance and an underlying dislike for the different treatment people of the blood get. History is not ignorance ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIBdaQUIB Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 First off bud, the "war hippy crowd" is the majority. Secondly, you don't read much of what I write do you? I am all for a pipeline PROVIDED it meets the basic requirements and is economically feasible. My big gripe right now is that they're lying to us, we are getting screwed monetarily and they just keep on telling people a large pack of crap and telling them it is good for them. $1.2 BILLION over 30 years. Fishing makes almost twice that along the coast per year. Running it through the Douglas Channel, 4th most dangerous waterway int he world would save them almost $200 million to not have to run it to Prince Rupert where BC taxpayers have spent over a billion int he last decade upgrading a port which is much much safer to ship through. Whyw ould I be ok with taking all of the risk for none fo the reward. over 30 years $1.2 Billion to BC $36 Billion to Alberta $40+ billion to the feds. That seem like a good deal to you? $40 million a year....really? My issues with the first nations part of this is that they've not contacted them at all. 8 years and have JUST started to meet with them in the last 14 months. The 209 recommendations list, the first nations councils have not even seen this list. There are rules to follow and they are not following them. That is my issue. You said it yourself, horrible things have been done to the first nations of this country int he past, ramming this through without their consent is just another wrong. One of the worst environmental abuses I saw was a band in Alberta that had signed off to let their land be used, they got rich. A band across the river didn't sign off. They got crap. Nothing but pollution because the other band was upstream and when they tried to reneg on the contract they lost in court and had to watch as this other band basically got pushed out of their ancestral lands because the water was poison, the animals wouldn't come and there was nowhere else to go. Why i am arguing you, I don't know. I have dealt with your type my whole life. Just because First Nations people have a different set of laws because this is by all records our land. You find fault with everything, we want permission asked. Oh theres not enough $ for you. We want enough money to offset the loss of our culture and way of life. Oh you're money grubbing. we don't want this here, oh you're enviro nuts. Nothing will make your mindset happy. Just understand simply. There are rules and regulations involved. If they are not 100% met and agreed on by the first nations groups along the proposed route this line does not get built period First off bud, the "war hippy crowd" is the majority. Secondly, you don't read much of what I write do you? I am all for a pipeline PROVIDED it meets the basic requirements and is economically feasible. My big gripe right now is that they're lying to us, we are getting screwed monetarily and they just keep on telling people a large pack of crap and telling them it is good for them. $1.2 BILLION over 30 years. Fishing makes almost twice that along the coast per year. Running it through the Douglas Channel, 4th most dangerous waterway int he world would save them almost $200 million to not have to run it to Prince Rupert where BC taxpayers have spent over a billion int he last decade upgrading a port which is much much safer to ship through. Whyw ould I be ok with taking all of the risk for none fo the reward. over 30 years $1.2 Billion to BC $36 Billion to Alberta $40+ billion to the feds. That seem like a good deal to you? $40 million a year....really? My issues with the first nations part of this is that they've not contacted them at all. 8 years and have JUST started to meet with them in the last 14 months. The 209 recommendations list, the first nations councils have not even seen this list. There are rules to follow and they are not following them. That is my issue. You said it yourself, horrible things have been done to the first nations of this country int he past, ramming this through without their consent is just another wrong. One of the worst environmental abuses I saw was a band in Alberta that had signed off to let their land be used, they got rich. A band across the river didn't sign off. They got crap. Nothing but pollution because the other band was upstream and when they tried to reneg on the contract they lost in court and had to watch as this other band basically got pushed out of their ancestral lands because the water was poison, the animals wouldn't come and there was nowhere else to go. Why i am arguing you, I don't know. I have dealt with your type my whole life. Just because First Nations people have a different set of laws because this is by all records our land. You find fault with everything, we want permission asked. Oh theres not enough $ for you. We want enough money to offset the loss of our culture and way of life. Oh you're money grubbing. we don't want this here, oh you're enviro nuts. Nothing will make your mindset happy. Just understand simply. There are rules and regulations involved. If they are not 100% met and agreed on by the first nations groups along the proposed route this line does not get built period I Agree the economic arguments appear inadequate to some degree. As for your comments regarding the type of person I am or the mindset I have, I worked directly with First Nations and as presented an Eagle Feather in gratitude for my contribution to their efforts. I worked directly with their land negotiating people and economic development personnel on deals that involved a number of bands, the Feds, Province and others. Please don't dismiss my comments as just another racist First Nations hater. Even working with a small number of bands, consensus was never reached and disputes erupted. For you to suggest that all the bands on the route have to agree on all matters related to the pipeline or it doesn't happen is tantamount to killing the deal. I am sure you are well aware of the dynamics of band democracy and how even within an individual band, it can take years for a band to reach consensus on an issue. To have to satisfy the wishes of numerous bands, who, often are working to one-up other bands is an exercise in futility. I happen to be a Canadian that believes we are all part of a great country and that the laws of the land should apply to all equally. We elect governments on this basis. Often they disappoint, lie, etc but this is the best system to address the needs of the society we are all part of. to allow anyone group veto over a democratically elected government will only lead to alienation and hostility. No one will benefit from that. I support a pipeline for the reasons I have stated earlier but I do share your concern for many things related to it. In a perfect world, we would all get everything we want. That world does not exist and never has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 My dad is a fisherman, and crabber he is extremely worried. As he should be. Fishing brings in almost $1.4 billion a year to BC. That is more in 1 year than 30 years of "tax benefits" Ask anyone in Prince William in Alaska how fishing is since Exxon. Or int he Gulf how prawning or crawfishing is. Non existent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 I Agree the economic arguments appear inadequate to some degree. As for your comments regarding the type of person I am or the mindset I have, I worked directly with First Nations and as presented an Eagle Feather in gratitude for my contribution to their efforts. I worked directly with their land negotiating people and economic development personnel on deals that involved a number of bands, the Feds, Province and others. Please don't dismiss my comments as just another racist First Nations hater. Even working with a small number of bands, consensus was never reached and disputes erupted. For you to suggest that all the bands on the route have to agree on all matters related to the pipeline or it doesn't happen is tantamount to killing the deal. I am sure you are well aware of the dynamics of band democracy and how even within an individual band, it can take years for a band to reach consensus on an issue. To have to satisfy the wishes of numerous bands, who, often are working to one-up other bands is an exercise in futility. I happen to be a Canadian that believes we are all part of a great country and that the laws of the land should apply to all equally. We elect governments on this basis. Often they disappoint, lie, etc but this is the best system to address the needs of the society we are all part of. to allow anyone group veto over a democratically elected government will only lead to alienation and hostility. No one will benefit from that. I support a pipeline for the reasons I have stated earlier but I do share your concern for many things related to it. In a perfect world, we would all get everything we want. That world does not exist and never has. Now that is a reasonable argument and congrats on the bestowing of the feather. That is a big deal But yes by and large and unanimously, barring the tribe from the Gwai they are all opposed to this as it stands. None of them have really been talked to informed or promised anything. Until the bands have been appeased one and all this does not get built. And until BC actually gets more than a literal pittance, this is not worth it for us. Especially with the Feds unloading all of these extra costs onto the provinces. From CPP to health care to education. It is getting worrisome. $40 million a year is nothing when that gets eaten up in one week via healthcare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAMBUTANS Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 I Agree the economic arguments appear inadequate to some degree. As for your comments regarding the type of person I am or the mindset I have, I worked directly with First Nations and as presented an Eagle Feather in gratitude for my contribution to their efforts. I worked directly with their land negotiating people and economic development personnel on deals that involved a number of bands, the Feds, Province and others. Please don't dismiss my comments as just another racist First Nations hater. Even working with a small number of bands, consensus was never reached and disputes erupted. For you to suggest that all the bands on the route have to agree on all matters related to the pipeline or it doesn't happen is tantamount to killing the deal. I am sure you are well aware of the dynamics of band democracy and how even within an individual band, it can take years for a band to reach consensus on an issue. To have to satisfy the wishes of numerous bands, who, often are working to one-up other bands is an exercise in futility. I happen to be a Canadian that believes we are all part of a great country and that the laws of the land should apply to all equally. We elect governments on this basis. Often they disappoint, lie, etc but this is the best system to address the needs of the society we are all part of. to allow anyone group veto over a democratically elected government will only lead to alienation and hostility. No one will benefit from that. I support a pipeline for the reasons I have stated earlier but I do share your concern for many things related to it. In a perfect world, we would all get everything we want. That world does not exist and never has. Now, this is a voice of reason. Balanced and logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIBdaQUIB Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 My people, first off have always lived in this land. We have archaeological evidence to prove us as far back as 15 000 - 18 000 years. Wow. Secondly- There are far more First Nations communities out there that heavily depend on the natural environment for food sources then you might realize. Salmon, Prawns, Crabs, Bottom Fish.. etc.. The water base between Vancouver- Victoria and Seattle have already been determind to be too poisoned to eat the food from it.. So why pollute the part of BC that actually hasn't been polluted. I have been dealing with all the racist people through my small town all day. Let me hear more. Have you studied the history of any peoples other than your own? Do you think you are the only society that was invaded, displaced, taken advantage of? What happened in North America to the First Nations was a travesty but really, was it any worse than what happened in the Highland clearances of Scotland by the British (my ancestors) Genocide and racial discrimination that has taken place for millennia all over the world? How about South Africa? The apartheid regime was brutal. The ANC didn't ask for VETO for the wrongs they suffered, they chose to participate in the democratic process of their country. Living within a democratic society while expecting to be immune from its policies and economics, only drives wedges between us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fagin Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 My people, first off have always lived in this land. We have archaeological evidence to prove us as far back as 15 000 - 18 000 years. Wow. Secondly- There are far more First Nations communities out there that heavily depend on the natural environment for food sources then you might realize. Salmon, Prawns, Crabs, Bottom Fish.. etc.. The water base between Vancouver- Victoria and Seattle have already been determind to be too poisoned to eat the food from it.. So why pollute the part of BC that actually hasn't been polluted. I have been dealing with all the racist people through my small town all day. Let me hear more. It is similar to the claims of the Nisga'a claiming to live in the Nass valley for tens of thousands of years.Which 5-10 thousands of years was under nothing but ice,it was only when the ice age started to warm that the Nass valley was created as the ice shifted.Blows a major whole in the claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAMBUTANS Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 As much as I enjoy reading who conquered what, I think our focus here should be how our "peoples" should benefit from this economically. I have no doubt the pipeline will get built. It's only a matter of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackberries Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 As much as I enjoy reading who conquered what, I think our focus here should be how our "peoples" should benefit from this economically. I have no doubt the pipeline will get built. It's only a matter of time. Rather than discuss economic benefit how about you tell me how one cleans an oil spill in the swells of Hectate Straight? Or a spill that destroys a whole generation of salmon in tributaries inland? A pipeline through Great Bear Rainforest how is that even remotely right in any ethical world? The reason Canada is so clean and beautiful is because we resisted doing this crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 As much as I enjoy reading who conquered what, I think our focus here should be how our "peoples" should benefit from this economically. I have no doubt the pipeline will get built. It's only a matter of time. And we're not benefiting at all according to the numbers already being discussed. Want real benefit? Refine the product in Prince Rupert, creating actual jobs in BC and using a harbour suitable for the tankers transporting the finished result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAMBUTANS Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Rather than discuss economic benefit how about you tell me how one cleans an oil spill in the swells of Hectate Straight? Or a spill that destroys a whole generation of salmon in tributaries inland? I'm not sure. When did the spill happen? I'll wiki it and see what's been done to-date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Aerosex Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Congratulations government. You can claim your "we're a bunch of ???? idiots" plaque from the post office in 3 business days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackberries Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 I'm not sure. When did the spill happen? I'll wiki it and see what's been done to-date. It hasn't happened yet. The point is the height of the swells make it impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fagin Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 And we're not benefiting at all according to the numbers already being discussed. Want real benefit? Refine the product in Prince Rupert, creating actual jobs in BC and using a harbour suitable for the tankers transporting the finished result. Similarly,Have you never wondered why we ship all our grade A lumber overseas,for them to manufacture furniture etc for us to import back here to sell to our populous.Different product but same scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAMBUTANS Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 It hasn't happened yet. The point is the height of the swells make it impossible. It's probably in one if those conditions so I'll leave it to the federal government geniuses to figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langdon Algur Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 I'm not sure. When did the spill happen? I'll wiki it and see what's been done to-date. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Your Huckleberry Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 What greener alternatives? There is none that is enough that will meet the needs of a growing world population. Wind and solar power won't do it. Hydro Electricity may enough but environmentists oppose that as well. Look at the Cite C demand and the opposition to it. This is a weak argument. Hypothetically, if no alternatives were apparent wouldn't it be logical to try to find one? To improve the current system? Luckily there are several greener technologies, some of which you listed, and they are only becoming more efficient. However, we don't need one particular source of energy, it can come from variety of sources. Why not pursue them all? There would be so many more jobs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teebs Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Somewhere in Ottawa, Harpo is looking for his rubber stamp.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanev Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Hopefully this shifts some of the big energy companies further west to BC. Will probably help out the downtown Vancouver job market at the expense of Northern BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 As a First Nations person.. I am officially at war with the Canadian, British Columbia AND Alberta governments. Bunch of crooks they are. CSIS will be knocking on your door soon. War is a bad thing and people die. Protest all you want, as is the right of all Canadians, but put a sock in the war talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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