Debunking the Detroit model myth?

[icetime]

Red Wings sre mythical not a myth. Canucks had the chance but squandered it with recent decisions. Now Canucks are myth of Sisyphus. Huh? ( Need a Molsons?) Ecept we didn't steal the fire. Just took the cold left overs.

What does it take to find the new Ken Holland? Is Mike Illitch looking for a new team since his old one is so over rated? How many Cups?

Wings never would have dumped AV. The GM would have assmebled the players for coach to win. No debilitating gaoalie mess. No Matts Sundin. No terrible Luongo contract (which Lou even regrets) Lets hope Vinnie can help because I doubt the Aquilini family will be making any investmets in our mess until they make some changes at the top. Next topic -- who is next Ken Holland?

[Caboose]

who is next Ken Holland?

Jim Nill in Dallas, 100%.

[Ghostsof1915]

Fact: Cheapest way to get assets is to draft properly. Detroit has a system. Players rarely dive into the team without playing 1-2 seasons in the minors. As Oldnews has said, considering the poor draft positions, the fact that 22 players on their roster are draft picks. That's remarkable.

Some seasons Detroit didn't even HAVE a 1st round pick.

2012- 2nd round 49th overall

2011- 2nd round 35th and 48th overall

2010- 1st round 21st overall

2009- 2nd round 32nd and 60th overall

Despite this they have done remarkably well.

Honestly Vancouver has had a long run of success, we're starting to pay the price for it now with an aging core. And not much in the cupboard. Maybe if we quit picking up garbage players from Florida like Booth and Ballard, maybe we wouldn't need NTC's because we'd be saving $4 million a season on not paying players that don't play or pull their weight based on their contracts.

NTC's are hurting us, because now we've lost the flexibility to make changes if we need too.

Nice painting yourself into a corner there Gillis.

[Canuck Surfer]

Come on Surfer, you haven't done your homework.

9 of their top 10 scorers are their own draft picks. Their starting goaltender is their own pick.

Zetteburg

Datsyuk

Kronwall

Franzen

Tatar

Abdelkader

Nyquist

Andersson

Smith

Kindl

Helm

Dekeyser undrafted fa

Ericsson

Sheahan

Jurco

Glendening

Emmerton

Lashoff

Almquist

Marchenko

Ouellet

Howard

Mrazek

All their own 'products'. 22 players on their roster.

As for their 'vault' of prospects that you belittle, I'm going to venture to say that you aren't qualified to assess it - and probably don't have quite the idea of who the 'no names' (ironically) in their prospect pool are that their scouts, with a record that speaks for itself, do.

Their playoff success speaks for itself as well. I guess you missed last year's playoffs where their failing impact players and lack of young talent merely put them in a 7th game overtime with the Hawks in the second round. Some folks around here had already pencilled in their demise midseason.

I don't really see your point, or why you'd try to make one like this.

Call it a 'system', 'model', approach, group, braintrust, or whatever you want - they've made it work with a consistency that any team would want to emulate.

Anthony Mantha at 20th overall is the highest pick they've had since Kindl at 19th in 2005, the one time they've had a pick in the top 20 since 1991.

Yeah, they make the most of what they have to work with.

No, not really. Not at all actually. Of their real impact players; none of Datsyuk, Kronwall, Zetterberg, Franzen ever played a single game in Adirondac or Grand Rapids.

Howard is the only ïmpact player drafted in the last ten years developed by their coaches and farm system. I suppose its fair to include Ericsson, but that's not on par with that core above. Detroit gets credit for being this factory that holds and develops guys in the minors. Its not warranted. They have only done that with just these two guys. We're still waiting for their home developed players. Thats the point.

DeKeyser is their only young impact player. But he was a college UFA. He was signed, showed up and was in their top 4 in the first two weeks. He's another product of scouting and recruiting.

Santorelli is ahead in scoring over any Detroit player drafted by them in the last 14 years.

Hey, you point out the factory has produced 22 drafted players on the roster. And a 2knd round visit last year. But currently they sit out of the play off race. Even in the worst division. Nobody fears playing against Almquist or Ouellet, neither of whom is on their roster BTW. I don't pretend to be an expert on their players, or if they will ultimately make it. Right now they just are not having much impact. No expertise required to judge that? In reality, they have undeveloped guys on the roster. Its actually an issue contributing to their position.

I'm sure they will be happier next year when the cap is back up, UFA's will be available and they can resume the normal business practices...

They just do not appear to be this great development factory as they get so much credit for. LA would be a much better example.

[aGENT]

I agree with Chris below; JR's point is one of the shrewdest I've seen on CDC.

Possibly / probably what MG was trying to accomplish (possibly 1 year late?) when he mentioned "reset"at the beginning of last off season. Some misinterpreted that as we would blow up the core. In fact we were just prioritizing setup of the next peak?

And that may take till next year or 2015.

That people don't recognize that's EXACTLY what Gillis is attempting to do baffles me. Yet people still are calling for Gillis to cash in our (finally!) decent prospect depth for a rental that may or may not make enough of an impact for a deep playoff run in a year that was always going to be a crapshoot.

This is year one of the re-tool, it's not going to be a Picasso. Be patient, the next wave is coming and if we let Gillis be his diligent self, all the "Fire Gillis" crowd will hopefully be wondering what the @#$% they were thinking in 2-3 years.

[aGENT]

LA would be a much better example.

LA went the Pits/Chicago (and attempted Edmonton) route. Suck-balls for a decade or so and draft high.

No thanks.

[Dogbyte]

The biggest factor as has been alluded to is that Detroit is an excellently managed team. For that reason they are always good and their draft picks can be afforeded the proper development time. Case in point Tatar, he's awesome but would have been a starter on pretty much any other team years earlier.

[swflyers28]

I would love to have the Detroit model in Philly. They haven't missed the playoffs in what, 22 years. They don't have 1st round or 2nd round draft picks as their stars. Zetterberg was a 7th round pick, Datsyuk 6th round, Franzen 3rd round and Ericsson 9th round! They know how to draft, how to develop and how to win, simple as that. Any team in their right mind would want to run their team like Holland does. Even NJ follows the same model, don't rush players and have a good scouting department.

[D-Money]

Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg... Some late round finds legit stuff of legend for their scouts.

That is definitely the main source of Detroit's success. Most franchises are lucky to draft a single HOF-er within a decade of drafting (we've drafted 2 in our entire history - Neely and Bure...Sedins may end up doubling that). Two would be outstanding, three an absolute coup...

...But FIVE?!?! And one of them arguably the 2nd greatest D-man of all time? It's surprising they didn't win MORE cups.

However, bringing in the vets probably helped. Look how a much of an impact a half-season of Sundin had on many of our players. Imagine if we had that sort of leadership & influence on the team on an ongoing basis? From multiple sources? It certainly couldn't hurt.

[oldnews]

No, not really. Not at all actually. Of their real impact players; none of Datsyuk, Kronwall, Zetterberg, Franzen ever played a single game in Adirondac or Grand Rapids.

Howard is the only ïmpact player drafted in the last ten years developed by their coaches and farm system. I suppose its fair to include Ericsson, but that's not on par with that core above. Detroit gets credit for being this factory that holds and develops guys in the minors. Its not warranted. They have only done that with just these two guys. We're still waiting for their home developed players. Thats the point.

DeKeyser is their only young impact player. But he was a college UFA. He was signed, showed up and was in their top 4 in the first two weeks. He's another product of scouting and recruiting.

Santorelli is ahead in scoring over any Detroit player drafted by them in the last 14 years.

Hey, you point out the factory has produced 22 drafted players on the roster. And a 2knd round visit last year. But currently they sit out of the play off race. Even in the worst division. Nobody fears playing against Almquist or Ouellet, neither of whom is on their roster BTW. I don't pretend to be an expert on their players, or if they will ultimately make it. Right now they just are not having much impact. No expertise required to judge that? In reality, they have undeveloped guys on the roster. Its actually an issue contributing to their position.

I'm sure they will be happier next year when the cap is back up, UFA's will be available and they can resume the normal business practices...

They just do not appear to be this great development factory as they get so much credit for. LA would be a much better example.

I missed the part where the hockey world redefined the Detroit "model" as you have - where it became known simply as being a Grand Rapids 'development factory'. You are grasping here.

Their "model" has been far more associated with the success of their late round drafting and their scouting.

I have never heard the Detroit "model" referred to in such a reductive way as you are describing it - it's borderline strawman - a "model" is more complicated than one aspect. It has not simply been decades of luck.

I think you're simply trying too hard - and collapsing their "model" into your perception of player (specifically AHL) development isn't really debunking any myths - you're creating a myth that that is what their "model" is perceived to be. Yes, part of that model is to resist unseating young players and pulling them overseas into the AHL prematurely. Trusting that they will develop in European leagues is not a failure or lack of wisdom where player development is concerned. In addition, player development continues once those players are brought into the mix on their AHL and NHL team, and anyone who doubts Bowman (Lewis) and Babcock's ability to develop players...(might need to rethink). Another aspect of their "model" - don't rush your prospects in prematurely. Patience and a strong veteran presence are obviously also significant aspects of their "model".

If you'd named their model what it is there might be less resistance to this oversimplification.

The KIngs are a better example with 3 of their top 4 scorers being acquired in trades and half their blueline (the backbone half) - Mitchell, Greene and Regehr - none of whom are LA draft picks?

I don't know what part of 21 straight playoff appearances with one pick in the top 20 since 1991 you find to be so vulnerable to debunking, but I'm not convinced. I also wouldn't be so quick to write their season off - were you one of those who made this claim at midpoint last year? For me this is a rethread and it isn't gaining credibility. Yes there will come a point at which the Detroit Redwings actually miss the playoffs. That will not however be evidence of any myths being debunked - it's simply a law of averages that they may not be able to defy forever - but I wouldn't start betting on it quite yet.

[Canuck Surfer]

I missed the part where the hockey world redefined the Detroit "model" as you have - where it became known simply as being a Grand Rapids 'development factory'. You are grasping here.

Their "model" has been far more associated with the success of their late round drafting and their scouting.

I have never heard the Detroit "model" referred to in such a reductive way as you are describing it - it's borderline strawman - a "model" is more complicated than one aspect. It has not simply been decades of luck.

I think you're simply trying too hard - and collapsing their "model" into your perception of player (specifically AHL) development isn't really debunking any myths - you're creating a myth that that is what their "model" is perceived to be. Yes, part of that model is to resist unseating young players and pulling them overseas into the AHL prematurely. Trusting that they will develop in European leagues is not a failure or lack of wisdom where player development is concerned. In addition, player development continues once those players are brought into the mix on their AHL and NHL team, and anyone who doubts Bowman (Lewis) and Babcock's ability to develop players...(might need to rethink). Another aspect of their "model" - don't rush your prospects in prematurely. Patience and a strong veteran presence are obviously also significant aspects of their "model".

If you'd named their model what it is there might be less resistance to this oversimplification.

The KIngs are a better example with 3 of their top 4 scorers being acquired in trades and half their blueline (the backbone half) - Mitchell, Greene and Regehr - none of whom are LA draft picks?

I don't know what part of 21 straight playoff appearances with one pick in the top 20 since 1991 you find to be so vulnerable to debunking, but I'm not convinced. I also wouldn't be so quick to write their season off - were you one of those who made this claim at midpoint last year? For me this is a rethread and it isn't gaining credibility. Yes there will come a point at which the Detroit Redwings actually miss the playoffs. That will not however be evidence of any myths being debunked - it's simply a law of averages that they may not be able to defy forever - but I wouldn't start betting on it quite yet.

Here, for the first time in years, Detroit has relied heavily on its young players. And they are struggling by Detroit standards.

I was pretty clear in my OP that scouting (and recruiting as alluded later) had landed good young players. In fact star players.

I always was questioning the common myth that Detroit develops so many of those / it's players. Look at Ghosts reply on post 23;

Players rarely dive into the team without playing 1-2 seasons in the minors.

That is simply not true. Of all their key drafted players (Datsyuk, Kronwall, Datsyuk, Franzen, Howard and Zetterberg), one (Howard) has played and developed through their system. ONE. Historically that has also been true. Fedorov, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Kozlov all never played a day for their minor affiliate.

But how many times do we hear CDC exhort that we should keep our guys in the minors, to do it the Detroit way? Not that we should bring guys up before they are ready.

To do it Detroits way we're going to have to pull a Lidstrom or Datsyuk out of the draft. And sign a Chelios, Shanahan or Larry Murphy. As they start relying on players from the farm their fortunes have started to slide.

Yes BTW, LA is a good example of developing its players. Martinez, Voynov, Clifford, King, Lewis, Brown, Nolan (he's maybe not that influential), all developed extremely nicely to become good players for the Kings. You're kidding yourself if you think Voynov is not a core guy for their D. Nowadays Jones made Scrivens expendable, Toffoli looks like a score. Muzzin is a talent, contributing and on his way. I would love him in our vault. These guys are coming up, play hard and within the system, but have also developed their talents for the roles they play. Toffoli a scorer still plays gritty, Voynov a puck moving D, King a grinder is becoming a 230 lb glue guy who can play top line. Their farm bred young guys are playing more key roles than Detroits. Manchester is a very positive influence.

[oldnews]

Here, for the first time in years, Detroit has relied heavily on its young players. And they are struggling by Detroit standards.

I was pretty clear in my OP that scouting (and recruiting as alluded later) had landed good young players. In fact star players.

I always was questioning the common myth that Detroit develops so many of those / it's players. Look at Ghosts reply on post 23;

Players rarely dive into the team without playing 1-2 seasons in the minors.

That is simply not true. Of all their key drafted players (Datsyuk, Kronwall, Datsyuk, Franzen, Howard and Zetterberg), one (Howard) has played and developed through their system. ONE. Historically that has also been true. Fedorov, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Kozlov all never played a day for their minor affiliate.

But how many times do we hear CDC exhort that we should keep our guys in the minors, to do it the Detroit way? Not that we should bring guys up before they are ready.

To do it Detroits way we're going to have to pull a Lidstrom or Datsyuk out of the draft. And sign a Chelios, Shanahan or Larry Murphy. As they start relying on players from the farm their fortunes have started to slide.

Yes BTW, LA is a good example of developing its players. Martinez, Voynov, Clifford, King, Lewis, Brown, Nolan (he's maybe not that influential), all developed extremely nicely to become good players for the Kings. You're kidding yourself if you think Voynov is not a core guy for their D. Nowadays Jones made Scrivens expendable, Toffoli looks like a score. Muzzin is a talent, contributing and on his way. I would love him in our vault. These guys are coming up, play hard and within the system, but have also developed their talents for the roles they play. Toffoli a scorer still plays gritty, Voynov a puck moving D, King a grinder is becoming a 230 lb glue guy who can play top line. Their farm bred young guys are playing more key roles than Detroits. Manchester is a very positive influence.

OK I've had enough Surfer.

This isn't the first time the Redwings have struggled - that's nonsense - in fact they were on virtually the identical trajectory last season.

You have reduced "the Detroit model" to an obvious oversimplification - and bitten off quite a grandiose claim in the process. You're trying too hard here, ignoring the larger "model" staring you square in the face.

[Canuck Surfer]

OK I've had enough Surfer.

This isn't the first time the Redwings have struggled - that's nonsense - in fact they were on virtually the identical trajectory last season.

You have reduced "the Detroit model" to an obvious oversimplification - and bitten off quite a grandiose claim in the process. You're trying too hard here, ignoring the larger "model" staring you square in the face.

I'll switch gears, sort of.

As the cap goes back up... Larry Murphy, Brett Hull type guys, reduced roles for declining but otherwise superb veterans, to extend their, careers have been a staple strategy of the Wings. Often at a stage where salary for said veterans has been more reasonable.

Next year inject Horvat, maybe Jenson or Shinkaruk with some veteran leadership to steward them, add some pop behind our top line. Perhaps look at rounding out our team with one or two of;

Ray Whitney

Jagr

Bring back Salo

Interestingly, Alfredsson

Iginla is still probably too high profile?

Morrow

Dan Boyle, again prob too high profile?

Scott Hannan at a more basic level

[aGENT]

I'll switch gears, sort of.

As the cap goes back up... Larry Murphy, Brett Hull type guys, reduced roles for declining but otherwise superb veterans, to extend their, careers have been a staple strategy of the Wings. Often at a stage where salary for said veterans has been more reasonable.

Next year inject Horvat, maybe Jenson or Shinkaruk with some veteran leadership to steward them, add some pop behind our top line. Perhaps look at rounding out our team with one or two of;

Ray Whitney

Jagr

Bring back Salo

Interestingly, Alfredsson

Iginla is still probably too high profile?

Morrow

Dan Boyle, again prob too high profile?

Scott Hannan at a more basic level

I'm hoping for Callahan personally.

[oldnews]

I'll switch gears, sort of.

As the cap goes back up... Larry Murphy, Brett Hull type guys, reduced roles for declining but otherwise superb veterans, to extend their, careers have been a staple strategy of the Wings. Often at a stage where salary for said veterans has been more reasonable.

Next year inject Horvat, maybe Jenson or Shinkaruk with some veteran leadership to steward them, add some pop behind our top line. Perhaps look at rounding out our team with one or two of;

Ray Whitney

Jagr

Bring back Salo

Interestingly, Alfredsson

Iginla is still probably too high profile?

Morrow

Dan Boyle, again prob too high profile?

Scott Hannan at a more basic level

Who won the Calder Cup last year, btw?

I'd hold off on declaring the end of Detroit's ability to retool on the go.

I would have liked to see Morrow here a few years ago. I've liked Hannan for some time (for the value) - but

there is a slight curveball that's been thrown into play, that the Detroit Redwings in their prime did not have to deal with - and a subsection of it, the 35+ clause, that changes (by necessity) the way teams approach veterans that in the past were not the risk they are now. I don't like it, and I don't like the fact that it devalues and makes it more difficult for 35+ players to land a decent contract, but it's a reality.

The team may have enough reasonable contracts and emerging youth however to make that kind of acquisition a reasonable risk with a raising cap and the vast majority of the team signed.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Bump due to trade deadline concerns.

I think it should be noted the Detroit hasn't pulled off a major trade since the 1996-1997 season, when they traded Paul Coffey and Primeau for Brendan Shanahan.

That's 17 years of no major trades, folks. Just minor trades and rentals.

If we're supposedly following the Detroit model, then why in the hell would even the mention of trading our prime-age, effective players come up?

If Kesler and/or Edler are traded, you can officially forget this 'Detroit model' thing. That means the players have lost confidence in this franchise altogether. It means that we're just like every other pathetic, cupless in two decades Canadian team that just won't ever properly implement a long term plan, nor have any significant player development, nor bring about a sense that they are indeed a truly elite franchise.

I'm bringing this up again because THIS 'WE'RE ELITE NOW' BS IS WHAT GILLIS AND FAQ HAVE BEEN SELLING US SINCE THEY TOOK OVER!

Yeah? Then where the hell is it?!

/Rant

The problem is we don't have a franchise player to build that kind of dynasty around. Detroit had Listrom.