canucksnihilist Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 retool. whatever. there is no way to retool this team and win the cup. there isn't any on-ice leadership - at least none this last year. And it was looking pretty bad the year before too. There is nobody that can take this team, but it on his back, can win games, and the team can build around. HS and DS were those types of players, but not anymore. that is the truth. They can be great complementary players, but they should be on the 2nd line at this stage of their careers. Maybe the 1st... depending on who is their line-mate.... but they can't be the ones leading the charge. So a retool does not win us the cup. period. If you don't want to win, and just want to watch hockey and make the playoffs... retool is the way to go. I hope the team sacrifices some of the "still able core" and gets more draft picks so we can potentially get that player(s) who we can build around. Maybe it is Horvat, maybe not... Hope so. who don't we keep who would make great complementary players - whoever they are (maybe the sedins, hamhuis and bieksa). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Sedins ceiling is probably 70-80pts now, but the bad thing is...there is NO one to replace them On the first line. You say that like it's a bad thing... San Jose's top scorer had 79 points. Chicago's top scorer had 78 points. LA and Colorado's top scorer had 70 points. Boston's top scorer had 69 points. If the Sedins can get between 70-80 points again we'll be fine. Where this team isn't fine is with their support players. All of those teams have 50-60 point support players, which the Canucks don't have right now outside of Kesler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bure to Mogilny Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 If the Canucks just re-tool the roster rather than do a full rebuild, what is their ceiling? Re-tool means keeping the same core of Sedins, Kesler, Burrows, Bieksa, Edler, and Hamhuis, but add some pieces via free agency, trade, or farm player. Personally, I believe the window has not completely shut for this group of guys and what happened last year was an anomaly. Due to hiring the wrong coach, the Luongo debacle, and injuries, the Canucks underachieved. The Sedins will bounce back and become 75 to 80 point players and Burrows should get around 40 points. I'm also hoping Horvat and Shinkaruk can make the Canucks roster next season. I like this thread there is alot of ceiling right now because the two most important posible desisions are already made and thats firing gillis and torts The next priority is ditching the sedin twins for a hi return But im realistic and now that probably wont happen so they damn well better improve and get back to competing for the art ross or this city will rightfuly riot against em hah Im excited for horvat and shink and think horvat will maybe offensivly be as amazing as shink he will make up for it with an all around game. Shink tho will get more headlines and could easily get 60 points knowing the way he plays Fox would be a suprise to be honest with the canucks but i really really really hope he becomes the steal of the decade for us I was reading about the defense that edler will rebound and the others will be good again i feel good about defense dominatiom again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Optimist Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Give the Twins a BONAFIDE sniper/goal scorer, then give Kes and BUR an equal to match them on the 2nd line..after that infuse our youth and let Kassian age a bit while protecting that youth and we just might have a team that can go to the dance. I love the D, it is the best part of the team, I like Eddie and I think the backup is not a bad choice, he has the blocks to build, just needs Rollie the Goalie Tudor to bring him up to speed. In short: add two wingers, buy out a winger (ahem, won't name names) then let Hansen and Higgins and Kassian along with two young guns hold down the bottom six, toss in or keep a pugilist and we have our forward lines...really just two holes on the team, still after six years of having just two holes on the team. WTF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me_ Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 You say that like it's a bad thing... San Jose's top scorer had 79 points. Chicago's top scorer had 78 points. LA and Colorado's top scorer had 70 points. Boston's top scorer had 69 points. If the Sedins can get between 70-80 points again we'll be fine. Where this team isn't fine is with their support players. All of those teams have 50-60 point support players, which the Canucks don't have right now outside of Kesler. You're absolutely right. The Sedins are done as leaders circa 2011 when one brother watched his other brother get bitch slapped. That was the start of the decline. Complementary 70-80 points players, perhaps. Leaders, not at all. I hope the Canucks get a 1RW, a 1C, a 1LW and a 1D. They might be able to make Shinkaruk 1st liner, especially if Kassian continues his frantic super speed evolution. Get them a 1C and that's no longer a problem. The 1D is another matter though. Not one time in the history of this franchise have the Canucks had a 1D. Therefore, they could not recognize on of they saw one, and if they did recognize one, he would not be traded for, nor drafted because of the philosophy employed by the organization. And if they did get to draft one, the organization wouldn't be able to turn the player into a bona fide 1D since no historical reference is to be had to this date. The rookie would have to be a can't miss protege in the Doughty, Weber kind. But that is an unknown u til they break out. The best way to make sure a 1D lands in Vancouver is via trade. Another example is in goal. Since the Vancouver Canucks have had the opportunity to have such an elite goaltender in Luongo, not only can rookies like Schneider at the time, and Lack and Markstrom now can have a reference point on becoming elite themselves, they can also be thought by the organization how to be elite since the organization has had an elite goalie in the first place. At the very least, if the Cancks are going anywhere with the remnant of the core after an ultra shock, hopefully by the start of next season, the organization has to get themselves two ready pieces: 1C, 1D. I am curious however to see a line of: SHINKARUK - MATTHIAS - KASSIAN That's definite skill, size, youth and grit, but could they click within a fast closing window, so we can watch the Sedins hoist the Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 You're absolutely right. The Sedins are done as leaders circa 2011 when one brother watched his other brother get bitch slapped. That was the start of the decline. Complementary 70-80 points players, perhaps. Leaders, not at all. I hope the Canucks get a 1RW, a 1C, a 1LW and a 1D. They might be able to make Shinkaruk 1st liner, especially if Kassian continues his frantic super speed evolution. Get them a 1C and that's no longer a problem. The 1D is another matter though. Not one time in the history of this franchise have the Canucks had a 1D. Therefore, they could not recognize on of they saw one, and if they did recognize one, he would not be traded for, nor drafted because of the philosophy employed by the organization. And if they did get to draft one, the organization wouldn't be able to turn the player into a bona fide 1D since no historical reference is to be had to this date. The rookie would have to be a can't miss protege in the Doughty, Weber kind. But that is an unknown u til they break out. The best way to make sure a 1D lands in Vancouver is via trade. Another example is in goal. Since the Vancouver Canucks have had the opportunity to have such an elite goaltender in Luongo, not only can rookies like Schneider at the time, and Lack and Markstrom now can have a reference point on becoming elite themselves, they can also be thought by the organization how to be elite since the organization has had an elite goalie in the first place. At the very least, if the Cancks are going anywhere with the remnant of the core after an ultra shock, hopefully by the start of next season, the organization has to get themselves two ready pieces: 1C, 1D. I am curious however to see a line of: SHINKARUK - MATTHIAS - KASSIAN That's definite skill, size, youth and grit, but could they click within a fast closing window, so we can watch the Sedins hoist the Cup. so, only an entire top line AND a franchise Defenseman. No pressure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 No elite goal tender. No elite d man. If Burr bounces back the team can squeak into the playoffs. If not,there is a first line hole,as well. Not enough talent or cap space to realistically contend for a cup. This perhaps the most fair summary in this thread? Not doom and gloom, but realistic. As below, we'll now only get better as some youth starts to inject real life into the core. The 3 year fall was easy to predict, as no team in today's era could replicate the success we had in 2011 up til the SCF. The twins though, should've waited til the end of the season to be resigned - would've saved us a few mil of cap room, and maybe 1 year in contract length. There aren't too many UFA's out there worth picking up for our team other than Orpik. I'm not so sure it was easy to predict. My evaluation is that from 2011 thru 2013 management got cocky. The thought was as long as you spend money we'll get better. But you still have to spend wisely. We acquired Booth for 3 times the cap we could have kept Torres for. We did not reinject a replacement for Samuelsson when Booth did not turn out to be it. We never fixed our mistake (hey you make em) with Ballard until he played here (is that the right term?) for 3 years. Make mistakes fine, but flush em and clear up the money. Then more carefully spend it. Another waste was not cashing in Schneider the asset earlier when we were still close to a championship window. Too much wasted opportunity. I believe we could have won with the same core, had we not wasted so many opportunities. Even good value acquisitions like Kassian and Garrison (actually a good player) did not exactly help. Garr because we had another big left handed shot and Kassian because he was too green. What we needed was a PMD, so hold off before giving Garrison money if he's not what you need. You have to pull exactly the right triggers to keep a core at a championship level. We went to the finals 3 years ago... Why would we have replaced the core anytime before then? This process needs to be done but it hasn't been 6+ years. I would argue the process should have begun after last years first round sweep to the Sharks. I think its fair to say it did start last year? And fair enough. 2 to 3 years on, now we certainly need to rebuild the surrounding core. And inject at least one if not two good young players into the core itself. We traded Schneider. We just haven't seen the fruits of that trade make their way into the line up yet. It continued this year when we traded Lou. If we had Nichushkin in our line up, we probably make the play off's this past year. I'm not saying we would be better off long term. Just inserting a 6'3'' 210 lb dynamic winger (an Olympian) would have had a ripple effect. Sorry, wrong track. We did get started with Horvat and Shinkaruk, we also corrected a lot our cap mismanagement issues. This past year was the market correction. We'll start to grow again this fall IMO. In 2015/16 when we have Horvat, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Jensen and Corrado already established, perhaps Kassian budding as an all star and Hutton nipping on some heals (plus our 6th overall due to our hickup year).... We should be kicking just fine! It was really last summer we should have fired Gillis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puck'nAnimal Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 You say that like it's a bad thing... San Jose's top scorer had 79 points. Chicago's top scorer had 78 points. LA and Colorado's top scorer had 70 points. Boston's top scorer had 69 points. If the Sedins can get between 70-80 points again we'll be fine. Where this team isn't fine is with their support players. All of those teams have 50-60 point support players, which the Canucks don't have right now outside of Kesler. Problem is this year they combined for 97 points TOTAL between the two of them. You'd better hope to hell they have a hell of a REBOUND year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Standing_Tall#37 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Problem is this year they combined for 97 points TOTAL between the two of them. You'd better hope to hell they have a hell of a REBOUND year. For 14 million in cap space to boot what a waste... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Standing_Tall#37 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 You say that like it's a bad thing... San Jose's top scorer had 79 points. Chicago's top scorer had 78 points. LA and Colorado's top scorer had 70 points. Boston's top scorer had 69 points. If the Sedins can get between 70-80 points again we'll be fine. Where this team isn't fine is with their support players. All of those teams have 50-60 point support players, which the Canucks don't have right now outside of Kesler. Yes I do say it like it's a bad thing, here's why; I said ceiling. Hank had 50 PTS this year Danny I believe had 47. I think these figures are what they are capable of since they'll be in steep decline now. They say one mans ceiling is another man's floor. So while I think 70 points is the Sedins Best possible years at age 34+, I believe 70 point seasons will be about as bad as Kane, toews, Hertl, couture, etc. do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kane Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 The Canucks could easily be a wild card team next season. In addition to the depth issues it seems like most of the team had their worst offensive seasons. I would expect that trend to continue and guys like Daniel, Henrik, Kesler and Burrows will show a significant improvement next season. The new GM (whomever that is) needs to focus mainly on improving the team's depth. I'd start be re-signing Santo, not for crazy money and for another 1-2 years. There's bound to be some lower level UFAs that the Canucks could scoop up early too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me_ Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 so, only an entire top line AND a franchise Defenseman. No pressure As a retool for the Cup, definitely. If not, there will be a good 10 years before all main core players have declined into retirement and a new core is groomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyLow_ Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 If the Canucks just re-tool the roster rather than do a full rebuild, what is their ceiling? Re-tool means keeping the same core of Sedins, Kesler, Burrows, Bieksa, Edler, and Hamhuis, but add some pieces via free agency, trade, or farm player. Personally, I believe the window has not completely shut for this group of guys and what happened last year was an anomaly. Due to hiring the wrong coach, the Luongo debacle, and injuries, the Canucks underachieved. The Sedins will bounce back and become 75 to 80 point players and Burrows should get around 40 points. I'm also hoping Horvat and Shinkaruk can make the Canucks roster next season. The San Jose Sharks. Good, but not good enough to win a cup. The roster is all jacked up with players playing where they shouldn't be, if it's fixed they could be better than the Sharks in 2 years. Forwards: Needs- Two top 6 forwards, chemistry on the 2nd line. 1st liners: Sedin, Sedin 2nd liners: Burr, Kes, Jensen*, Shinkaruk*, Kassian* 3rd liners: Higgins, Mathias, Hansen, Booth, Horvat", Gaunce" 4th liners: Richardson Spares: Tostitos, Dalpe Defense: Needs- Powerplay Quaterback, balancing. Left side D: Hammer, Edler, Garrison, Stanton Right side D: Tanev, Bieksa, Corrado* Spare: Weber Asterisk indicates where young players will likely play next year or the year after, but at this time are not ready. Kassian may be ready for the 2nd line, but as long as Kes is there it doesn't work. They're a trainwreck together. So as you can see, it's not bleak but there's a lot of balancing to be done with respect to the roster. Moving up in the draft to pick Sam Bennett would be a prudent move. It would allow for the rumored Kesler for Pouliot, Sutter and a 1st move which would greatly help accomplish our goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucksnihilist Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 i get the feeling something else was going on with MG. since the SCF his moves just didn't make sense. say you want to be physical and let Torres walk. Waive Volpatti and lose him just to bring someone up from the minors... It's almost like he thought he could do anything he wanted and didn't have to worry about the consequences anymore. The whole Luongo thing with 2 great goaltenders... down to 0 (well I think Lack is a great goaltender - or at least he has the potential - but at the time...). It's almost like he took everything personally and kept grudges... How do you explain the rash of bad moves. Really bad moves? I used to think he was doing a great job until this fall off the cliff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB007 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Problem is this year they combined for 97 points TOTAL between the two of them. You'd better hope to hell they have a hell of a REBOUND year. They had injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Kenobi Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 "Team has no support players" This is wrong. The team has a great second line. They had one of the worst first lines (and perhaps the worst first line in Canucks history). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB007 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 "Team has no support players" This is wrong. The team has a great second line. They had one of the worst first lines (and perhaps the worst first line in Canucks history). Which first line are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 If the Canucks just re-tool the roster rather than do a full rebuild, what is their ceiling? Re-tool means keeping the same core of Sedins, Kesler, Burrows, Bieksa, Edler, and Hamhuis, but add some pieces via free agency, trade, or farm player.Personally, I believe the window has not completely shut for this group of guys and what happened last year was an anomaly. Due to hiring the wrong coach, the Luongo debacle, and injuries, the Canucks underachieved. The Sedins will bounce back and become 75 to 80 point players and Burrows should get around 40 points.I'm also hoping Horvat and Shinkaruk can make the Canucks roster next season.lol they reached the ceiling long ago.. the Sedin's been on a decline before Torts arrived so blaming their decline on torts is a joke. Burrows maybe able to get to 15-20 goals again.. prolly not much more.. i don't see Edler ever turning it around.. so basically all our core peaked out a while ago and all of them are on a decline.. and we traded away both our top flight goaltender for 2 rookies that neither even played 82 games yet in their career.. so for the love of god. don't retool.. please rebuild.. i rather see the team being a piece of crap for a few years and hopefully draft decent and rebuild like chicago and colorado.. then be mediocre and float around the middle trying to compete for a playoff spot every year but go no where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoneypuckOverlord Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Add a offensive dman, add another offensive winger to compliment our second line sign manny malhotra, and we back in it. The following year add what is needed to make it to the finals bam canucks turn around time 2 years instead of 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puck'nAnimal Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 "Team has no support players" This is wrong. The team has a great second line. They had one of the worst first lines (and perhaps the worst first line in Canucks history). The Force evidently is not so strong with this one. "Worst first line in Canucks history"? At two times in the careers of these two first-line players (Henrik and Daniel Sedin) these two top players combined for almost 200 points (197 points in 2009-2010 and 198 for 2010-2011) and both Henrik and Daniel won the Art Ross Trophy (Henrik in 2009-2010; Daniel in 2010-2011). They don't give out the Art Ross to players who you'd describe as the "worst first line in Canucks history". This year perhaps was an anomaly and let's hope to hell that it isn't a sign that age is taking its toll on the Sedins. Certainly this year 2013-2014 they could be classified as the worst first line this season, but I would have to say that despite the horrific production of this year there were worse seasons to be seen from the Canucks in the entirety of their history. I presume those of you don't remember Vic Stasiuk or Tom Watt if you think that this season was the worst that you've ever seen. Stasiuk coached the Canucks to a 22-47-9 record which could potentially be excused as it was the Canucks third season in the league. But do you remember Tom Watt in 1985-86 managed to go 23-44-13 and still managed to "squeak into the playoffs" and promptly got destroyed in the 5 game 1st round of the playoffs 3-0 by of all teams; EDMONTON (which was a powerhouse back then with Gretzky) Try again, Obi-Wan, you've fallen into a gundark pit yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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