Let's put a rest to this "No Barry Trotz because he's too Defensive" argument

[Hank Moody]

To start off this argument, let's look at a recent Canuck coach: Our very own Alain Vigneault. When Vigneault first arrived in Vancouver, he was labelled a "defensive" coach who "road Luongo's coattails to his Jack Adam's" trophy in 06-07. He had the exact same question marks surrounding him as we do with Barry Trotz - He played a very defensive style in Montreal in the late 1990's, however he didn't have many good players at his disposal and played a style that would best help his team win games given what he had - a team full of grinders.

Look at this article from 2008. Now I picked 2008 because this is a year when Alex Burrows still had not established himself as a top scorer in this league, the Sedins still had question marks surrounding their development and if they would ever become top players in the league, and we generally did not have anyone outside of Markus Naslund who had proven they could put the puck in the net on a consistent basis.

http://blogs.theprovince.com/2008/01/16/canucks-offence-at-the-mercy-of-alain-vigneault/

The article, for those who don't want to read it, states that The Canucks offense is dried up because of Alain Vigneault's defensive style and that Alain Vigneault is the reason why a player like Markus Naslund is experiencing decline in his stats.

The Canucks ended up missing the playoffs in 2008. Now let's look at the GF totals from the date of that article to our cup run 2011 through to our second consecutive President's trophy in 2012.

2007-2008: 213

2008-2009: 246

2009-2010: 272

2010-2011: 262

2011-2012: 249

Notice that this is around the time the Sedins began to take home Art Ross trophies and Alex Burrows developed into a 30 goal scorer? This is around the time we brought in guys like Sundin and Demitra and Ryan Kesler began breaking out as an offensive center to compliment the defensive side of his game?

So what changed? Alain Vigneault finally had enough scoring power on his team to employ an offensive system. Everybody thought he was simply a defensive coach. Once Mike Gillis gave him some scoring help with the additions of Ehrhoff, Samuelsson, Demitra, and Sundin it finally made SENSE for Vigneault to employ an offensive system to compliment the personnel he was given. Add on the emergence of Raymond, Burrows and the Sedins as offensive threats and he was finally given a team that he could work with.

What made 2011 so successful? In 2011, we let in 37 less goals (222 to 185) while scoring 10 less goals than the previous year. It had nothing to do with our offense. We scored even LESS goals than the previous year where we were ousted in the 2nd round. Our defensive game was what pushed us over the top. Yet we were not seen as a "defensive" team. Why? Because of our PERSONNEL. How could a defensive team have the Sedins, Kesler, Burrows, Ehrhoff and Salo in the system? These were all offensive guys.

The point i'm trying to make is this: You do not get hired to coach in the best league in the world on one of the top organizations in the league if you cannot adapt your coaching to the strengths of your team.

Now let's look at the rare few times when Barry Trotz was given talent to work with offensively.

Paul Kariya

When Paul Kariya was signed by the Nashville Predators, he was hailed as being "in the twilight stages of his career" after scoring only 11 goals and registering 36 points on what was largely a failed Selanne - Kariya experiment in Colorado.

Paul Kariya would go on to score 31 and 24 goals respectively in the next 2 seasons with Nashville, registering 85 and 76 points. He then signed with St. Louis, where he could not register more than 18 goals in the next 3 seasons. Was Paul Kariya a victim of "Trotz's defensive style"?

Steve Sullivan

When Sullivan was acquired from the Blackhawks onto a largely touted defensive team like the Predators, it was expected that his production would dip. In Sullivan's last 3 years as a Hawk, he registered 21, 26 and then 15 goals respectively.

His first year with Nashville, he played only 24 games registering 9 goals (which would put him on pace for about 27 goals in a full season) and the next season he registered 31 goals. His highest in 6 seasons. After that, he registered another 27 goal season in 06-07 after going on to decline drastically in his numbers, never reaching 20 goals again after that season.

Why did his production go from top tier in the league to abysmal so fast? The Departure of PAUL KARIYA

(Hi Again)

When Kariya left, Sullivan lost a prime offensive threat that he clicked with, and Nashville never gave him a player of Kariya's caliber for Trotz and Sullivan to work with.

Another guy is Jason Arnott, who enjoyed some of his best offensive years in Nashville.

Radulov can also be added to this list, although for arguments sake that Trotz is the reason he left or whatever, we won't include him here.

What's the trend here? The Predators have never had more than 2 or 3 legitimate offensive threats in their forward corpse, and therefore have been labeled a "Defensive" team because of their strong defensive qualities. When Trotz was given players who could actually put the puck in the net, they excelled when given the right players to play with.

Now let's look at a side-by-side team comparison.

Nashville's GF totals from 06-07 to 12-13 (Vigneaults Era) :

Kariya era:

05-06: 259

06-07: 272 - 50 more goals than our Canucks in this year

Then:

07-08: 230 - 17 more goals than our Canucks this year

08-09: 213

09-10: 225

10-11: 219

11-12: 237

12-13: 111

Vancouver's GF totals from 06-07 to 12-13:

06-07: 222

07-08: 213

08-09: 246 - 33 more goals than Nashville

09-10: 272 - 47 more goals than Nashville

10-11: 262 - 43 more goals than Nashville

11-12: 249 - 12 more goals than Nashville

12-13: 127 - 16 more goals than Nashville

That means in Vigneault's tenure, and over a span of 7 years, we scored only 84 more goals than Nashville. That's an average of 12 more goals per year than "defensive" Trotz.

Now let's look at the annual team payrolls during this time:

Nashville:

06-07: 43 million - The Same

07-08: 30 million

08-09: (Can't find data)

09-10: 44 million

10-11: 50 million

11-12: 52 million

12-13: 53 million

Vancouver:

06-07: 43 million

07-08: 45 million - 15 mill more

08-09: (Discredit due to no data from Nashville)

09-10: 59 million - 15 mill more

10-11: 62 million - 12 mill more

11-12: 64 million - 12 mill more

12-13: 70 million - 17 mill more

That's an average of 12 million dollars spent more by Vancouver over this period of time.

12 million dollars for 12 more goals on average? That's about 1 million dollars per goal more that Vigneault had to work with.

Now who did Vigneault have at his disposal during this tenure?

Sedins, Ehrhoff, Salo, Samuelsson, Naslund, Burrows, Raymond, Kesler, Demitra, Sundin, and i'd even go as far as to throw guys like Higgins and Morrison on there who have had 20 goal seasons.

Who did Trotz have?

Kariya for 2 years, Sullivan, Legwand, Dumont, Fisher, Erat, Arnott, Suter, Weber, Hornqvist, Kostitsyn and Radulov.

I think Trotz will do just fine given our far superior personnel. The problem will not lie with Trotz if the team is defensive, the problem will lie with Benning if he cannot bring in the necessary offensive tools to make this team offensive.

[PhillipBlunt]

Agreed. I'd love for Barry Trotz to run the bench here. He'll be instrumental in the impending blockbuster trade bringing Shea Weber to Vancouver......

Botchturd be damned!

[Watermelons]

Good read. +1 to OP. I'm all for bringing Trotz to the Canucks. He has shown time and time again that he can bring out the best in his players and he would also bring some respect to the team. As others have said, he's like the anti-torts.

A guy like Trotz would almost certainly have watched hundreds of videos on every Canucks before he joins the team in August for training camp. He will probably know everyone's strengths and weaknesses and have the players play to their strengths. There won't be a situation like Torts where he will admit at the end of the year "Eds is a guy I couldn't get to."

Trotz to Canucks please!

[TheRussianRocket.]

Idk why people are so sucked into this thought. He only played a boring defensive game cause it was the elements he had to play with. Had he be given better cards with more talent he would adapt to make the players play to their strenghts. Like Trotz says, he doesn't coach teams, he coaches people. Most coaches just have a strategy and implement it everywhere they go no matter what; he coaches the people/the players and the players he had wouldn't play to the best of their ability if he made it offensive cause they simply weren't. In 05/06/07, he finally got some juicy players on the roster and he adapted like he says. Didn't keep it, coached the player, and people are far to quick to forget of they didn't witness it but those 2 years, Preds were one of the deadliest teams out there just outright electric.

05/06 season he led them too 49 wins and in 06/07 to 51! That is simply put amazing. To say he won't be able to implement an offensive strategy in comparison to most of what he did in Nashville makes no sense cause his track toward says otherwise. When he had the elements he dominated and when he never (basically all but 2 years his tenure there), he did what was best for the team to win and had to play defensive.

05/06 - 49 win season:

Kariya had 85 pts in 82 games, Sullivan 68 in 69 games, YANIC PERRAULT had 57 in 67 games, Timmonen had 50 in 79 games, Erat 50 pts in 80, Zidlicky 49 pts in 67, Hartnell 48 in 81 games, etc.

06/07 - 51 win season:

Kariya had 76 in 82, Dumont 66 in 82, Legwand 63 in 78, Sullivan 60 in 57, Erat 57 in 68, Timmonen 55 in 80, Arnot 54 in 67, Weber 40 in 78, Forsberg 15 in 17, etc.

If that, ^^^, is not enough offense, idk what is. Wake up people and realize Trotzcan play any game. It just depends on the talent he had to work with and if he comes here, I have no doubt he'll be able to play and get some of our offensive players back up in the ranks blasting away.

[Ghostsof1915]

The AV comparison is interesting because like AV, Trotz has struggled to get the Preds past the second round. Now if he has more talent to work with could he change that? Maybe.

Recycling coaches, much like GM's doesn't always work. It worked with Chicago with Quenneville. But so far in St. Louis, with Hitchcock, they aren't having any better luck.

My top of my list is Larry Robinson. Because he knows both sides of the game, and from what I understand he's a fantastic teacher.

And teaching our players to work as a unit, not just blocking shots would be far more effective. The issue with Larry is he seems to put a lot pressure on himself to exceed. It translates well into the players who sound like they will go through a wall for him. But he might be just happy not having the pressure of a head coach.

I'm not saying Trotz is a bad choice. He's a damn good coach, and any team will be lucky to have him. I'm just not sure he's the right fit here. If he does get hired here, it would be very interesting to see how it pans out because:

1) He has a team with more forward depth than he's had.

2) The defence needs improvement.

3) The team will spend to the cap. And he has some young talent to work with as well.

4) Not sure where we stand with our goaltending.

But it sounds like it's up to Benning on who we get as our coach.

[khay]

Nice read. I am starting to feel convinced that Trotz is not a defensive minded coach as I used to think.

I had not idea Nashville scored 272 goals in 06-07. But I do remember them playing super well that year during the regular season but I thought it was mainly due to their defence but not really because of their offence.

[Jiggs50]

Thank you! People need to realize that Trotz did the best he could with what he had. AV was hailed as a defensive coach as well when he was hired and his first year the Canucks were a trap, lock it down type team. Coaches adapt. Trotz will too.

Trotz or Oates!

[DeNiro]

The GM dictates what style a team will play based on the players he acquires.

The coach develops a system that he believes will equal wins based on the characteristics of his team.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Players not being able to score enough goals = The coach is too defensive.

The goaltender not being able to make enough saves = The coach is horrible.

[Xbox]

Defensive playoff hockey > No Playoff hockey.

[aGENT]

Excellent post OP. Should be required reading for everyone on CDC.

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

I have to say OP you did a good job almost changed my mind but still haven't, but I did enjoy your post!

Now think of this team from a wider point of view just not coaching the players, but coaching for this CITY. After the way the last few years have gone here, fans are losing interest in this team and from a marketing point of view the Aquilinis want fans back and don't want to lose fans. They know this city is a hockey market, which enjoys a fast passed excitement type of hockey. I'm sure they understand this city is also inpatient, but I don't see them wanting to have a coach here who is know for defense which he is. If fans aren't happy about having Trotz as a coach, you really think they will take the risk and hope people come back? If they go after a coach who they know is more offensive for what fits this city more, and the fans know this, from a marketing point of view if would be the best decision to get the fans back. We all know this market is about making money(most of us know this) and the Aquilinis are about making money, they are smart business people, don't be surprised if they have some say in who the coach is for this city.

[ocnucksfan]

The fact he's proven an ability to adapt and play a game according to the what he's given just shows how good he is. I cant understand why people don't want him. Perhaps its failure to realize things like the OP mentioned and only looking at the last few years of Nashville performance when Trotz had practically nothing to work with. Trotz is amongst few coaches who can and are willing to adjust the style of game played to the strength of the players on the team. He's a great option, is there really much better?

[Rick Grimes]

I love it, I for one hope Barry Trotz is our new coach.

I have a great gut feeling about him as a coach, and I feel he would be a great fit here.

Considering what he managed to do with Nashville, he impressed me. That team never spent a proper dime on its forward group and he did an amazing job with what the Nashville management gave him to work with/Ownership was willing to spend for him to succeed.

[chrisbanks]

Thank you! People need to realize that Trotz did the best he could with what he had. AV was hailed as a defensive coach as well when he was hired and his first year the Canucks were a trap, lock it down type team. Coaches adapt. Trotz will too.

Trotz or Oates!

AV was told to adapt by MG or else he was gone... look what happend his first year in new york sure they are where they are but that team wouldve been in the eastern finals last year with torts too if they hadnt ran up against boston second round this rangers team has gotten more favorable match ups thus far and now no carey price in montreal its a cake walk into the finals..... but this year nash's and richards production were cut in half compared to last year under torts and st louis gets traded there and his production falls way off as well..... but as far as trotz goes 1 thing the canuck players wont like is that he still demands good team defense in your own end and 100% effort every shift... and thats something our group right now just doesnt bring to the table.

[stawns]

The AV comparison is interesting because like AV, Trotz has struggled to get the Preds past the second round. Now if he has more talent to work with could he change that? Maybe.

Recycling coaches, much like GM's doesn't always work. It worked with Chicago with Quenneville. But so far in St. Louis, with Hitchcock, they aren't having any better luck.

My top of my list is Larry Robinson. Because he knows both sides of the game, and from what I understand he's a fantastic teacher.

And teaching our players to work as a unit, not just blocking shots would be far more effective. The issue with Larry is he seems to put a lot pressure on himself to exceed. It translates well into the players who sound like they will go through a wall for him. But he might be just happy not having the pressure of a head coach.

I'm not saying Trotz is a bad choice. He's a damn good coach, and any team will be lucky to have him. I'm just not sure he's the right fit here. If he does get hired here, it would be very interesting to see how it pans out because:

1) He has a team with more forward depth than he's had.

2) The defence needs improvement.

3) The team will spend to the cap. And he has some young talent to work with as well.

4) Not sure where we stand with our goaltending.

But it sounds like it's up to Benning on who we get as our coach.

Larry Robinson won't ever be a head coach in the NHL again. It's pretty well known that he was having issues related to the pressure of being a head coach. He's happy being an asst coach and I would think that's where he'll stay.

[stawns]

I have to say OP you did a good job almost changed my mind but still haven't, but I did enjoy your post!

Now think of this team from a wider point of view just not coaching the players, but coaching for this CITY. After the way the last few years have gone here, fans are losing interest in this team and from a marketing point of view the Aquilinis want fans back and don't want to lose fans. They know this city is a hockey market, which enjoys a fast passed excitement type of hockey. I'm sure they understand this city is also inpatient, but I don't see them wanting to have a coach here who is know for defense which he is. If fans aren't happy about having Trotz as a coach, you really think they will take the risk and hope people come back? If they go after a coach who they know is more offensive for what fits this city more, and the fans know this, from a marketing point of view if would be the best decision to get the fans back. We all know this market is about making money(most of us know this) and the Aquilinis are about making money, they are smart business people, don't be surprised if they have some say in who the coach is for this city.

winning trumps style every time.

[johngould21]

The AV comparison is interesting because like AV, Trotz has struggled to get the Preds past the second round. Now if he has more talent to work with could he change that? Maybe.

Recycling coaches, much like GM's doesn't always work. It worked with Chicago with Quenneville. But so far in St. Louis, with Hitchcock, they aren't having any better luck.

My top of my list is Larry Robinson. Because he knows both sides of the game, and from what I understand he's a fantastic teacher.

And teaching our players to work as a unit, not just blocking shots would be far more effective. The issue with Larry is he seems to put a lot pressure on himself to exceed. It translates well into the players who sound like they will go through a wall for him. But he might be just happy not having the pressure of a head coach.

I'm not saying Trotz is a bad choice. He's a damn good coach, and any team will be lucky to have him. I'm just not sure he's the right fit here. If he does get hired here, it would be very interesting to see how it pans out because:

1) He has a team with more forward depth than he's had.

2) The defence needs improvement.

3) The team will spend to the cap. And he has some young talent to work with as well.

4) Not sure where we stand with our goaltending.

But it sounds like it's up to Benning on who we get as our coach.

Wild horses wouldn't get Larry Robinson here, he would be a very excellent option though. I think he likes the ponies/trotters down in SCal too much to come to Vancouver.

[johngould21]

AV was told to adapt by MG or else he was gone... look what happend his first year in new york sure they are where they are but that team wouldve been in the eastern finals last year with torts too if they hadnt ran up against boston second round this rangers team has gotten more favorable match ups thus far and now no carey price in montreal its a cake walk into the finals..... but this year nash's and richards production were cut in half compared to last year under torts and st louis gets traded there and his production falls way off as well..... but as far as trotz goes 1 thing the canuck players wont like is that he still demands good team defense in your own end and 100% effort every shift... and thats something our group right now just doesnt bring to the table.

I just got a headache reading that mess.

[Tangelos]

I really couldn't care less what style we play as long as we're winning.