Heretic Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Of course there are some individuals that would. But out of 40,000 teachers, do you think enough would support a no wage increase deal, because it is better for "the kids"? I truly doubt it. No doubt about it - they voted 86% to accept. So I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Of course there are some individuals that would. But out of 40,000 teachers, do you think enough would support a no wage increase deal, because it is better for "the kids"? I truly doubt it. Of course not, considering they did accept 0 in exchange for limits on class size and composition only to have it illegally ripped up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Of course there are some individuals that would. But out of 40,000 teachers, do you think enough would support a no wage increase deal, because it is better for "the kids"? I truly doubt it. They did that already that, remember? Christy ripped it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violator Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Exactly. As far as the HST goes - the "NOT ME" are "NOT TOO BRIGHT" for without the HST, the average person pays more tax now. Could you an ron stop thinking logically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violator Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Teachers could make 15000/yr more in Alberta, but do they? No. Why? Because this is a beautiful place to live and it's their home. I'm willing to bet those who have the money to enjoy everything this province has to offer are even less inclined to leave because of a slight tax bump. Fear-mongering, pure and simple. The goverment of alberta laid off a thousand teachers last year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Teachers could make 15000/yr more in Alberta, but do they? No. Why? Because this is a beautiful place to live and it's their home. I'm willing to bet those who have the money to enjoy everything this province has to offer are even less inclined to leave because of a slight tax bump. Fear-mongering, pure and simple.Human and corporate migration to low tax jurisdictions is reality, not fear mongering.I personally know dozens of people from BC that moved to Alberta.Lots of people like Newfoundland, which is apparently beautiful. Lots of people hate Fort McMurray, which most certainly is not. Yet every second person you talk to seems to be from Newfoundland.Do you really think the BC government, which is trying to woo the liquified natural gas sector into moving into this province, are going to raise the corporate tax rate right as they are making the decision? I don't even think the NDP is THAT dumb! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Exactly. As far as the HST goes - the "NOT ME" are "NOT TOO BRIGHT" for without the HST, the average person pays more tax now.Of course they do. Gotta love this place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Human and corporate migration to low tax jurisdictions is reality, not fear mongering. I personally know dozens of people from BC that moved to Alberta. Lots of people like Newfoundland, which is apparently beautiful. Lots of people hate Fort McMurray, which most certainly is not. Yet every second person you talk to seems to be from Newfoundland. Do you really think the BC government, which is trying to woo the liquified natural gas sector into moving into this province, are going to raise the corporate tax rate right as they are making the decision? I don't even think the NDP is THAT dumb! Then why does anyone live in Sweden? It can be done - I don't think it will ever be done, but it certainly CAN be done. Edit: and for the rest - so do I - but is the BC population in a decline? We have a lot more available resources than Newfoundland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Then why does anyone live in Sweden? It can be done - I don't think it will ever be done, but it certainly CAN be done.Why does anyone live in the USA? Up until recently a lot of people didn't even have healthcare!Why does anyone live in India? Companies are moving their in droves, but much of the country doesn't even have basic municipal infrastructure!Hear many stories of people outsourcing to Sweden?Besides, if you want to live in a nanny state, go move the Denmark. The women are almost as hot and it's a HELL of a lot more fun. In both countries people love to gripe about said nanny state as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Ron, your philosophy is a race to the bottom and is nothing we should aspire to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Why does anyone live in the USA? Up until recently a lot of people didn't even have healthcare! Why does anyone live in India? Companies are moving their in droves, but much of the country doesn't even have basic municipal infrastructure! Hear many stories of people outsourcing to Sweden? Besides, if you want to live in a nanny state, go move the Denmark. The women are almost as hot and it's a HELL of a lot more fun. In both countries people love to gripe about said nanny state as well. I was addressing your "migration" comment - while I agree it exists it isn't a be-all/end-all law. Nor did I ever make a "health-care migration" claim. Why is "outsourcing" a good thing? Take advantage of come poor schmucks in another country because you can pay them less? Deprive your own country's population of jobs? Create annoying language-based customer-support situations? My main point for education is that, in theory, it gives all Canadian citizens an equal opportunity. (If they have the aptitude.) Rich families can easily circumvent a struggling education system but the poor cannot. By restricting this funding you inherently put the boot onto already marginalized citizens (kids), reducing their social mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonMexico Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Come on now ron, you know better than to let facts get in the way of a discussion. After all, this labour dispute was 100000000% about the kids, right? Not even remotely about the money! For the record, I don't have a problem with teachers asking for more money - they can and should negotiate for an increase. Just stop trying to disguise it as all about the kids, when it isn't. Yes, fighting for better class size and composition is absolutely admirable and as a parent I support that. But, admit too, that a wage and benefit increase is just as important. Although anectdotal, I asked my family members and friends who are teachers, if they would be happy with a deal that gave them all of their class size and composition requests, but no wage or benefit increases. Every one of them cringed..... but admitted they would not have approved such a deal. If it was really about getting a raise, why did they agree to this horrible deal? 7.25% over 6 years? What does that equal? about 500 bucks extra per year if you made 50k. Some 'raise' that is. Some of the years imbedded in the deal are 0% raises too. I am not a teacher but if I was striking solely based on improving wages (which it obviously wasn't about), my union and it's membership totally failed me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 I was addressing your "migration" comment - while I agree it exists it isn't a be-all/end-all law. Nor did I ever make a "health-care migration" claim. Why is "outsourcing" a good thing? Take advantage of come poor schmucks in another country because you can pay them less? Deprive your own country's population of jobs? Create annoying language-based customer-support situations? My main point for education is that, in theory, it gives all Canadian citizens an equal opportunity. (If they have the aptitude.) Rich families can easily circumvent a struggling education system but the poor cannot. By restricting this funding you inherently put the boot onto already marginalized citizens (kids), reducing their social mobility.Outsourcing isn't a good thing. It's a bad thing. High corporate tax rates encourage outsourcing.Get it?And of course education is important. That's why it's over a quarter of the provincial budget.If we could find realistic ways to increase governement revenue, other than paying down our debt (that's a hell of a legacy to leave the next generation, the shame of doing that should outstrip everything else), then of course improving education would be a great place to do it.But we need to find a way to do it. The idea of taxing the rich more isn't exactly new, in fact it's already implemented. Estimates of how much could be added are vastly exaggerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 If it was really about getting a raise, why did they agree to this horrible deal? 7.25% over 6 years? What does that equal? about 500 bucks extra per year if you made 50k. Some 'raise' that is. Some of the years imbedded in the deal are 0% raises too. I am not a teacher but if I was striking solely based on improving wages (which it obviously wasn't about), my union and it's membership totally failed me.The majority of people in BC aren't getting raises either. Frequently they are happy just to have jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qball Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Private enterprise?!? Man the barricades! That private schools do a better job despite all the vitriol against them is a case for privatising the schools, not the opposite. This recent study at UBC seems to disagree with you... http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/public-school-graduates-beat-private-pupils-in-undergrad-research-finds/article4101993/ All you have to do is look to the US to see that Education for Profit, Charter Schools, Voucher systems... do not work in the best interest of most students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Ron, your philosophy is a race to the bottom and is nothing we should aspire to.The world is a competion regardless of whether you are trying to wish that away or not.Even if you put up giant fences (be it to keep people in, or out, depending on your particular issue) and guards you will still have a never ending stream of people moving to where they think they can make more money.Companies will always locate to where they can make their shareholders the most money. It's their obligation.You are confusing philosophy with reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Outsourcing isn't a good thing. It's a bad thing. High corporate tax rates encourage outsourcing. Get it? And of course education is important. That's why it's over a quarter of the provincial budget. If we could find realistic ways to increase governement revenue, other than paying down our debt (that's a hell of a legacy to leave the next generation, the shame of doing that should outstrip everything else), then of course improving education would be a great place to do it. But we need to find a way to do it. The idea of taxing the rich more isn't exactly new, in fact it's already implemented. Estimates of how much could be added are vastly exaggerated. Watch it fella - I'm an outsourcer. Unless of course you mean "over seas" outsourcing then I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonMexico Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 The majority of people in BC aren't getting raises either. Frequently they are happy just to have jobs. Hearsay. You nor I have access to this information so making such sweeping statements is just grandstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 This recent study at UBC seems to disagree with you... http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/public-school-graduates-beat-private-pupils-in-undergrad-research-finds/article4101993/ All you have to do is look to the US to see that Education for Profit, Charter Schools, Voucher systems... do not work in the best interest of most students.The people who based their results on how people did in a university physics class while ignoring the wide sampling done by the Fraser institute should do themselves a favour and enroll in a statistics course.....You can prove anything if you limit your sample set artificially. For example, I grew up in a welfare family, in the trailer court, with an alcholic step dad. I got a full scholarship to UBC, and got an "A" in HONOURS physics!Clearly if parents want their kids to do well in physics they should take up drinking and enjoy the zero hour work week that welfare provides. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Watch it fella - I'm an outsourcer. Unless of course you mean "over seas" outsourcing then I agree.Subcontracting is generally awesome.For example, the governemnt should subcontract out, oh, I don't know, say, the schools? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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