Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Where'd Luongo?]

45 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Yeah it is quite funny, your conclusion was a bit premature after Yak had a strong start, since then Yak has cooled off and Teravainen is a point a game player, just proves my point even further.  Games played means zero about a players development.  Jake may have played 12th most games in the first round of his draft year, but it sure has zero to do with Jake being the more developed than the players that have played less than him.

p/gp was the argument. using that simple form of division we can see that both of them are on an upward trend AKA developing.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Where'd Luongo?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

6 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

p/gp was the argument. using that simple form of division we can see that both of them are on an upward trend AKA developing.

No it wasn't, you brought it p/gp after getting schooled and needed to change the topic.  Me and Robb were having a discussion about Jake playing the 12th most games among his 1st round counterparts, he thought it was meaningful, I used the yak and teravainen example to debunk that stupid theory, after yak got off to a hot start you jumped the gun prematurely and since then teravainen has make you look dumb.  Just give it up, and move on.  Back to Jake Virtanen.

[Where'd Luongo?]

39 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

No it wasn't, you brought it p/gp after getting schooled and needed to change the topic.  Me and Robb were having a discussion about Jake playing the 12th most games among his 1st round counterparts, he thought it was meaningful, I used the yak and teravainen example to debunk that stupid theory, after yak got off to a hot start you jumped the gun prematurely and since then teravainen has make you look dumb.  Just give it up, and move on.  Back to Jake Virtanen.

Not at all what happened, at no point was i schooled in any discussion with you. In fact my point stands that Teuro and Yak are furthering their development this year and their p/gp this season is proof. Thus proving my point.

 

Make a graph, plot the points, draw a line, see for yourself. I'm not making things up, it's literally math. Clear as day. i don't know what to say to you further than that.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Where'd Luongo?

[PuckYa]

On 11/17/2017 at 7:07 PM, combover said:

I don’t understand why you draft a kid that plays fast, physical and on the edge and then tell him to stop playing the way that made him success and why he was drafted. Then act suprised that he’s less effective.

I was excited when he was drafted finally a physical player that other teams will hate and know when hes on the ice. Then he does what young players that need to play on the line to be success did and threw a questionable hit and got suspended for it. The Coach and the captain call him out in the media then he comes back and is confused with what his role is if not the player they drafted then what is expected forecheck but not to hard,hit but don’t hit, be physical but do it nicely.

I Feel bad for the kid, We should have drafted another cupcake and let this fast physical forward go play the way he learned to play and the reason he  became a top pick for a team that would appreciate  him and  let him learn and find the fine line for himself.

 

good thing we got gagner a -5 with lots of  pp and ice time and with  a whooping 6 points in 19 games 

as a-posed to pressbox jakes +3 and 4 points  In 15 games with no power play or third period ice time.

i know who I rather see

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 11/17/2017 at 9:02 PM, Crabcakes said:

 I think the key with Jake at this point is to keep him hungry, to keep him playing with an edge and not to get too comfortable.

 

Unfortunately, it looks like the easiest place to slot him in the line up is with the Sedins.  I said before, players who compliment his skill set are who he should play with.  More speed, guys who can set him up etc

 

Horvat, Baertschi, Boeser, Granlund.....

I agree with you guys. 

Virtanen growing up was always the man on every team he played. I understand that he has to learn the all around 200ft game but playing with the Sedins seems to totally take away from his game. Sometimes playing with guys you respect too much doesn't work. That season in Utica helped his defensive game as he's shown this year already with all his back checks & numbers, etc.

He needs to free roll a little with guys like Granlund & Eriksson. Those 2 will have his back on the defensive side & Virtanen could be the Virtanen we drafted.

Get him a little PP time as well, never know what you have till you try it. May also give him a boost in confidence which every 21 year old needs. 

I'm all for the tough love but I also see that a 21 year old needs confidence & rewarding as well to develop.    

 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

7 hours ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

Not at all what happened, at no point was i schooled in any discussion with you. In fact my point stands that Teuro and Yak are furthering their development this year and their p/gp this season is proof. Thus proving my point.

 

Make a graph, plot the points, draw a line, see for yourself. I'm not making things up, it's literally math. Clear as day. i don't know what to say to you further than that.

The discussion isn’t if both our developing. It’s who is farther ahead in development. That started with robb stating it was based off total games played. Which failed then, You  stated it was based on g/pg again that idea failed and you moved on to p/pg. and when yak had a decent start you pressed the conclusion button early thinking you won. Now your back pedaling. 

[Where'd Luongo?]

39 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

The discussion isn’t if both our developing. It’s who is farther ahead in development. That started with robb stating it was based off total games played. Which failed then, You  stated it was based on g/pg again that idea failed and you moved on to p/pg. and when yak had a decent start you pressed the conclusion button early thinking you won. Now your back pedaling. 

Hmm, ok, make the graph bud. It's all about taking stats and trending them over a period of time. Through trending you can see an upward trend in Teuro and a downward trend with Yak as of last year but he is having a good year again this year, they are both showing positive development this year while Teuro has been able to improve year over year. Jake's trend-line started off hot and like Yak has went down and back up this season. This indicates a setback last year and positive development this year. 

 

Trending works and tells a story, as I have already said. You can't argue against math, it's math.

 

Even without trending and looking directly at p/gp of the 2014 draft class (looking at forwards):

Draisaitl - .73

Pastrnak - .73

Nylander - .7

Ehlers - .66

Larkin - .54

Reinhart - .52

Virtanen - .22

 

Paints a pretty accurate picture. I would say that's almost exactly the order of development.

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Where'd Luongo?

[Tre Mac]

44 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

Hmm, ok, make the graph bud. It's all about taking stats and trending them over a period of time. Through trending you can see an upward trend in Teuro and a downward trend with Yak as of last year but he is having a good year again this year, they are both showing positive development this year while Teuro has been able to improve year over year. Jake's trend-line started off hot and like Yak has went down and back up this season. This indicates a setback last year and positive development this year. 

 

Trending works and tells a story, as I have already said. You can't argue against math, it's math.

 

Even without trending and looking directly at p/gp of the 2014 draft class (looking at forwards):

Draisaitl - .73

Pastrnak - .73

Nylander - .7

Ehlers - .66

Larkin - .54

Reinhart - .52

Virtanen - .22

 

Paints a pretty accurate picture. I would say that's almost exactly the order of development.

 

I can't speak for Reinhart but the rest of those players are put in positions to succeed and they play with quality players.  Remember how good Jake looked in various preseason games when he played with Horvat and Baerstchi?  He looked like a top 6 forward.  There is zero chance for JV to succeed playing 9 min a night with the two slowest players in the NHL, but maybe that's on JV.  Maybe he's not doing the things that the coaches are asking or perhaps there is other issues we are not privy to, who knows.  On the surface though it appears JV is being held to a different standard and a higher accountability.  I'd like him to play with anyone else not named Sedin, even a Virtanen Gagner Eriksson line would probably work better.

[Where'd Luongo?]

1 minute ago, Tre Mac said:

I can't speak for Reinhart but the rest of those players are put in positions to succeed and they play with quality players.  Remember how good Jake looked in various preseason games when he played with Horvat and Baerstchi?  He looked like a top 6 forward.  There is zero chance for JV to succeed playing 9 min a night with the two slowest players in the NHL, but maybe that's on JV.  Maybe he's not doing the things that the coaches are asking or perhaps there is other issues we are not privy to, who knows.  On the surface though it appears JV is being held to a different standard and a higher accountability.  I'd like him to play with anyone else not named Sedin, even a Virtanen Gagner Eriksson line would probably work better.

I hear ya, but here's the argument:

 

Draisaitl, Pastrnak, Nylander, they have all PROVEN they are top line forwards. If Virtanen scored for a few games consecutively do you really think he wouldn't get moved up the lineup?

[Crabcakes]

4 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

I hear ya, but here's the argument:

 

Draisaitl, Pastrnak, Nylander, they have all PROVEN they are top line forwards. If Virtanen scored for a few games consecutively do you really think he wouldn't get moved up the lineup?

Jake isn't the only top 10 pick from the 2014 draft with a slow start to his career.

 

4. Bennett  5.  Dal Colle

 

 

[Where'd Luongo?]

12 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

Jake isn't the only top 10 pick from the 2014 draft with a slow start to his career.

 

4. Bennett  5.  Dal Colle

 

 

I would actually say Bennett started off really well and fell off. He is trending down fast. Dal Colle has definitely had a slow start and is a question mark still.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Where'd Luongo?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 hour ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

Hmm, ok, make the graph bud. It's all about taking stats and trending them over a period of time. Through trending you can see an upward trend in Teuro and a downward trend with Yak as of last year but he is having a good year again this year, they are both showing positive development this year while Teuro has been able to improve year over year. Jake's trend-line started off hot and like Yak has went down and back up this season. This indicates a setback last year and positive development this year. 

 

Trending works and tells a story, as I have already said. You can't argue against math, it's math.

 

Even without trending and looking directly at p/gp of the 2014 draft class (looking at forwards):

Draisaitl - .73

Pastrnak - .73

Nylander - .7

Ehlers - .66

Larkin - .54

Reinhart - .52

Virtanen - .22

 

Paints a pretty accurate picture. I would say that's almost exactly the order of development.

 

What on earth are you taking about. The discussion has to do with which player is currently further ahead in there development. Yak vs Tera.  Yes math is math but the hard part is understanding what the numbers mean and putting them into a context that makes sense and provides an accurate picture. Something you are unable to do. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by ForsbergTheGreat

[Where'd Luongo?]

2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

What on earth are you taking about. The discussion has to do with which player is currently further ahead in there development. Yak vs Tera.  Yes math is math but the hard part is understanding what the numbers mean and putting them into a context that makes sense and provides and accurate picture. Something you are unable to do. 

I did it repeatedly for you. I laid it out over and over, the fact that you can't see it is concerning. Perhaps you didn't read anything at all.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Where'd Luongo?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Just now, Where'd Luongo? said:

I did it repeatedly for you. I laid it out over and over, the fact that you can't see it is concerning.

You haven’t done anything. You’ve defended Robb’s claim. Change the parameters and are trying to conclude that yak is further ahead of Tera which is utterly insane

[Where'd Luongo?]

6 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

You haven’t done anything. You’ve defended Robb’s claim. Change the parameters and are trying to conclude that yak is further ahead of Tera which is utterly insane

Hmm... I in fact said that Teuro was ahead of Yak.

1 - "Tera - upward trend year over year.   Yak - downward trend year over year."

2 - "Through trending you can see an upward trend in Teuro and a downward trend with Yak as of last year but he is having a good year again this year, they are both showing positive development this year while Teuro has been able to improve year over year."

 

Lets take a look at who said Yak was ahead of Teuro:

Edited November 21, 2017 by Where'd Luongo?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

2 hours ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

Hmm... I in fact said that Teuro was ahead of Yak.

1 - "Tera - upward trend year over year.   Yak - downward trend year over year."

2 - "Through trending you can see an upward trend in Teuro and a downward trend with Yak as of last year but he is having a good year again this year, they are both showing positive development this year while Teuro has been able to improve year over year."

 

Lets take a look at who said Yak was ahead of Teuro:

Sarcastic hence the caps. Your reply was to my response the showed why Tera is ahead of yak something you disagreed with.  You posted it as soon as yak got off to a hot start and since you’ve done nothing but backpedal. 

[Where'd Luongo?]

2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Sarcastic hence the caps. Your reply was to my response the showed why Tera is ahead of yak something you disagreed with.  You posted it as soon as yak got off to a hot start and since you’ve done nothing but backpedal. 

When I asked if Yakupov was ahead of Teuro? That is a question and states no position whatsoever.

 

I just showed you multiple quotes of me saying the exact opposite of what you are claiming. Show me the one where I said Yak was further.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Where'd Luongo?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

27 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

When I asked if Yakupov was ahead of Teuro? That is a question and states no position whatsoever.

 

Except you didn’t ask with the intention of looking for an answer. I had already answered that in my reply that you were responding too.  You waited for yak to get off to a hot start to imply he was further ahead and since Tera has made you look dumb. Back pedal away

 

[Where'd Luongo?]

2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Except you didn’t ask with the intention of looking for an answer. I had already answered that in my reply that you were responding too.  You waited for yak to get off to a hot start to imply he was further ahead and since Tera has made you look dumb. Back pedal away

 

Haha show me the quotes bud.

[PuckYa]

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by CoolCanucklehead

[ForsbergTheGreat]

On 9/21/2017 at 4:06 PM, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Do you think using "total" games played and goals is an accurate indicator for comparing where players are at in their hockey career development.

On 9/21/2017 at 4:07 PM, Where'd Luongo? said:

For a fwd that is supposed to score goals, yes. Especially when you use division (g/gp).

 

On 9/21/2017 at 4:18 PM, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Ok, perfect, so you think if a player has more career total goals and games played then they are further ahead in their development....

 

There for using that logic i guess we can conclude that Yakupov is further ahead in development than Teravainen?  

 

On 9/21/2017 at 4:55 PM, Where'd Luongo? said:

Tera - .163 g/gp

Yak - .181 g/gp

 

Yup it still works.

 

 

Two weeks later after Yak got off to a hot start you blew prematurely and replied a comment of mine that you already replied to.

On 10/23/2017 at 10:24 PM, Where'd Luongo? said:

So, is Yakupov further ahead in his development than Teravainen?

 

Clearly that was you attempting a rhetorical question. but since then Teravainen has 19 points in 19 games and nail is at 9 points in 19 games.   Now you play dumb and pretend discussion was never about comparison of the two players. Give it up, you're making a fool out of yourself, maybe this will teach you not to jump to a conclusion about player development after playing 6 games.  Now enough with this discussion, if you want to continue this charade of being deliberately obtuse you can PM, but this is the Jake Virtanen thread, try to stay on topic.