Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[-AJ-]

12 hours ago, The 5th Line said:

I see advanced stats used to determine improvement all the time on here.  Jake's underlying numbers are down compared to last year, so what does that mean?  It either means that those numbers don't mean jack or it means people only use them when they want to.

 

Which stats in particular? I used my Selke model to analyse 12 Canuck forwards and Virtanen came out 5th in that ranking, but I use mostly standard stats like takeaways, Corsi, blocked shots, etc, not super advanced ones, so you may have something else that I'm missing.

[PhillipBlunt]

29 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

It means that he played with, on average, lesser linemates given his personal stats improved but his team related stats declined.   He should be, within the next season or the one after at the latest, drive an entire line so that will not be an excuse for him sooner than later but this year he wasn't surrounded often by what he needed to get those stats into shape.   It happens.

 

As Travis Green has said for three years now, the best Jake Virtanen will be the one that emerges at 24 if he continues to listen and follow the program.

What does a coach know? He doesn’t blog. 

[BarnBurner]

Wow! You just won't cut the guy a break, will ya?!!! 

 

No wonder you're on the 5th Line! 

 

Geez dude, cut the buy some slack, he's progressing just fine. 

 

Just like all the people basing Juolevi, he's going to be better than average. 

 

 

[-AJ-]

18 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

Well the most common ones I see are corsi combined with zone starts and points/60

Corsi combined with zone starts is a tough one to compare to others, but it seems like he's on the lower end of our forwards in that metric and definitely down compared to last year (at least individually, I didn't compare him to his teammates in 2017-18).

 

His points/60 rank 9th on the team out of 16 forwards at 1.45/60. Last year, his points/60 ranked 13th out of 18 players at 1.33.

 

So in summary, I will grant you the Corsi relative to zone starts point, but not the points/60.

[BarnBurner]

11 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

Why does he get special treatment?

 

I watch people trash Edler all the damn time, who like it or not is a Canuck legend.  Pouliot gets shredded severely, as does Goldobin, so do many others.

 

And the hypocrisy regarding advanced stats is what really grinds my gears, not Jake's lack of production.  I don't even want him traded, I want to see him succeed here badly

That's great that you want him succeed. I think most of us do. 

 

Personally, I don't follow advanced stats. Don't even know what they are. Could care less. 

 

I don't think any player should be entitled to special treatment. That I agree. But after spending the most part of that one year in Utica, Green got through to him and was drilling into his head what he needed to do to play in the NHL and he's progressed steadily each year. 

 

Pouliot, as you know, was coached by Green in Portland. So if anyone's going to get special treatment, it would be him. But he's been just horrible. The guy isn't getting it at all. Maybe next year, who knows. Gudbranson was 3rd overall. So was Cam Barker. But at least Jake is developing into a rock-solid player. 

 

And to be fair, I want every player on our team to succeed. But if they're not "getting it" and pulling their weight, you can only take so much.

 

Which is true of you. But you should at least see that he is moving in the right direction.

 

People want to trade Jake, but I say no. He's coming along just fine. Next year is his contract year. I believe he's going to come out flying.

 

 

[Angry Goose]

5 minutes ago, BarnBurner said:

 

 

People want to trade Jake, but I say no. He's coming along just fine. Next year is his contract year. I believe he's going to come out flying.

 

 

And if he doesnt its good for the Canucks too.  Sign him to a low cap deal for a few years.  Hopefully he breaks out during that contract.  If not, there are plenty of things jake can do to help the team win.  He's turning into a good all around player.  Just needs to keep improving each year and Im happy.

[Me_]

When is the deadline that determines whether Virtanen is a success?

[-AJ-]

24 minutes ago, Me_ said:

When is the deadline that determines whether Virtanen is a success?

His retirement.

[Elias Pettersson]

Bertuzzi didn't do much until he was 24 and playing with Naslund.  Jake is still only 22.  Give it a couple more years and also he needs to play with some talent if you want him to put up numbers.  He's not gonna score 25 goals playing on the third line with Roussel and 2nd unit PP.

 

Let's see how he does next year and how Green uses him.  If he develops chemistry with Gaudette then maybe he can have a really good season.  If we don't pick up a winger for BO and he plays with BO and Pearson he could really break out.  We will see.

[Alflives]

16 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Bertuzzi didn't do much until he was 24 and playing with Naslund.  Jake is still only 22.  Give it a couple more years and also he needs to play with some talent if you want him to put up numbers.  He's not gonna score 25 goals playing on the third line with Roussel and 2nd unit PP.

 

Let's see how he does next year and how Green uses him.  If he develops chemistry with Gaudette then maybe he can have a really good season.  If we don't pick up a winger for BO and he plays with BO and Pearson he could really break out.  We will see.

Burt had way better hands than Jake.  I see Jake as needing to get mean, and go out to hurt guys.  Not to injure, but to make the guy know Jake is on the ice and causing pain.  

[Elias Pettersson]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

Burt had way better hands than Jake.  I see Jake as needing to get mean, and go out to hurt guys.  Not to injure, but to make the guy know Jake is on the ice and causing pain.  

True but Jake has more speed and a better shot. He just needs to learn how to use those assets more effectively.  Jake is also a powerful hitter like Bertuzzi but doesn’t seem to play that game as much as he used to. He needs to get more physical. 

 

If the Canucks can add more truculence to their team that might push Jake to get more physical. 

[-AJ-]

21 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

True but Jake has more speed and a better shot. He just needs to learn how to use those assets more effectively.  Jake is also a powerful hitter like Bertuzzi but doesn’t seem to play that game as much as he used to. He needs to get more physical. 

 

If the Canucks can add more truculence to their team that might push Jake to get more physical. 

I would add that I think Bertuzzi had a bit more of a mind for the game than Jake. Virtanen seems to think in a very straightforward manner whereas I think Bertuzzi had more of an offensively creative mind.

[Ballisticsports.]

8 hours ago, Alflives said:

Burt had way better hands than Jake.  I see Jake as needing to get mean, and go out to hurt guys.  Not to injure, but to make the guy know Jake is on the ice and causing pain.  

I remember Jake saying this at the beginning of the year, yet wouldn't drive to net and make people hate playing against him like he said

 

I expect Jake to try real hard, as it will be for a new contract next year and have his best year

That is what concerns me, he does not seem motivated to back up what could make him a very valuable player like Bo, EP and Brock, Stetcher, Markstrom have figured out and work to improve 

I would be concerned that money will motivate him, Canucks then sign him to a higher wage and then he does not put in the same effort ( I hope Canucks  resign only 1-2 years) 

 

Canucks have more forward stars than defencemen stars, If we could sell high on Jake and get a dman who will be a star, I would be so for that 

[Stormriders]

6 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

True but Jake has more speed and a better shot. He just needs to learn how to use those assets more effectively.  Jake is also a powerful hitter like Bertuzzi but doesn’t seem to play that game as much as he used to. He needs to get more physical. 

 

If the Canucks can add more truculence to their team that might push Jake to get more physical. 

A better shot,  . . . are you kidding me?  Bertuzzi had a GREAT shot, . . . Jake can't hit the net.

[Rob_Zepp]

10 hours ago, Me_ said:

When is the deadline that determines whether Virtanen is a success?

April 27th, 2021 at precisely 10:27 PM (PDT).    

[skategal]

Some might argue that Jake is already a success.  He's one of very few players to actually make it to the NHL which is the top tier hockey league in the world.  Bear in mind that he is 22.  22!!!  How many of us had our life completely figured out and had maxed out on our potential by that age?   Jakob Markstrom if you want to compare is 29, and only this season arguably played to what most thought his potential was.  

It would be great if we could just step back a bit and cheer on our team without imposing our expectations on every kid.   We talk about watching our team grow, but if players don't meet our lofty expectations, we want to dump them for the next shiny thing, assuming that newer shiny is going to be better than slightly used but still shiny.  

I hope that Jake continues to improve every season.  I hope he remains a Canuck for at least a couple more years.  I think he's going to need to experience a playoff series to truly understand how much he can contribute with his size and speed.  

[D-Money]

7 minutes ago, skategal said:

Some might argue that Jake is already a success.  He's one of very few players to actually make it to the NHL which is the top tier hockey league in the world.  Bear in mind that he is 22.  22!!!  How many of us had our life completely figured out and had maxed out on our potential by that age? 

Some might argue that...but that would be sentimental tripe.

 

He's not a 3rd rounder, he's a 6th overall pick. The 6th overall picks in previous years were Sean Monahan, Hampus Lindholm, Mika Zibanejad, Brett Connolly, and Oliver Ekman-Larsson. Matthew Tkachuk was taken 6th two years after him, and is already made a large impact.

 

So no, so far Jake is not a "success". He's managed to avoid being a total bust (a la 6th overall Nikita Filatov), and become at least a decent player. He may improve, but right now he's looking more like a Connolly than a Zibanejad or Monahan. And when Tampa realized that Connolly wasn't going to be an impact player for them, they moved him for two 2nd round picks. One of those turned into Boris Katchouk, who is a promising prospect for them.

[higgyfan]

19 hours ago, Alflives said:

Burt had way better hands than Jake.  I see Jake as needing to get mean, and go out to hurt guys.  Not to injure, but to make the guy know Jake is on the ice and causing pain.  

Yeah, I don't get the comparison to Bertuzzi at all. Todd had Jake's current point total within his first 2 years in the NHL.  Bert was mean and intimidating; a real game changer.  So far, Jake is a pussycat in comparison.

[Where'd Luongo?]

10 hours ago, Stormriders said:

A better shot,  . . . are you kidding me?  Bertuzzi had a GREAT shot, . . . Jake can't hit the net.

Bert's backhand was absolute fire.

 

I still think Jake is on the right track and is getting better. He just needs to figure out what to do when he blows in along the boards with the puck on his tape.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Where'd Luongo?

[Zhukini]

Comparing Jake to Bertuzzi is like comparing Pouliot to Letang