Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Alflives]

as much as it is an unpopular. What if it is true. Ehlers has 4 goals, 8 points in the NHL, nylader is scoring point per game in the AHL. 

And to be honest, I find most of your post ridiculous. With your logic, you have stated that you hated vey before, even if he is a canucks, does that make you not a canuck fan.

what if?  What if?  What if?  The fact of the issue is this is the Canuck's board.  That is not a what if.  Coming here and posting such comparisons of our prospects to other teams' prospects in a very negative way could be considered trolling. Vey and Baer are very similar players to Nylander and Ehlers.  That is a fact.

[Delta76]

what if?  What if?  What if?  The fact of the issue is this is the Canuck's board.  That is not a what if.  Coming here and posting such comparisons of our prospects to other teams' prospects in a very negative way could be considered trolling. Vey and Baer are very similar players to Nylander and Ehlers.  That is a fact.

"to make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them."

 

 

As much as I think that DownUnda is jumping to conclusions a little too fast (although sending Jake to junior is a valid argument) he is not trolling. He is simply stating his opinion which he has a right to do. 

 

You are being quite hypocritical in your arguments saying that we should not rag on Canuck prospects but then ragging on Baer and Vey yourself (I strongly dislike Very BTW.) 

 

You also aren't really giving any proof in you're arguments other than calling players "softies" and declaring them busts because of it. It is ridiculous to declare a 19yr old player a bust in general, let alone after putting up 8 points in 10 games (Ehlers), ppg in the AHL (nylander) or 7 points in 10 games (Larkin). Other than you're them being "softies" there is no evidence of them being busts. Quite the contrary actually. 

 

 

By your logic Patrick Kane, Tyler Johnson, Johnny Gaudreau and Torey Krug should all be playing in Europe. One of them has a 3 Stanley cups and a conne smythe, 1 lead his team to the SCF and the other 2 were Calder trophy finalists. I feel like if you were posting on here at the time you also would have declared the Sedin's busts for being "softies."

 

 

The lack of proof and you're writing style suggest you are trying to troll moer than downuna, and you may be succeeding. You are drawing some inflammatory responses. 

 

Edited November 1, 2015 by Delta76

[Lancaster]

Everyone needs to relax when it comes to the production of Virtanen.  Horvat took a while before he even got a goal.  Heck, not sure if anyone really remembers... but even Joe Thornton was held pointless or something for his first 20+ games in his rookie season (or something like that). 

Jake has 2 assists in 8 games.  If he gets 20 points in the course of the season, while maintaining his physical presence, and giving his 100% each shift, I don't see anything wrong with that.  Meanwhile, he'll be learning from some of the best offensive players in our generation (Daniel and Henrik), some of the ideal physical workhorses of the league (Dorsett and Prust) and also building chemistry with his age peers (McCann, Horvat, Baertschi, Hutton, etc). 

[Spotted Zebra]

what if?  What if?  What if?  The fact of the issue is this is the Canuck's board.  That is not a what if.  Coming here and posting such comparisons of our prospects to other teams' prospects in a very negative way could be considered trolling. Vey and Baer are very similar players to Nylander and Ehlers.  That is a fact.

The fact that this is a canucks board makes our prospects better than everyone else's is what way?

[Alflives]

"to make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them."

 

 

As much as I think that DownUnda is jumping to conclusions a little too fast (although sending Jake to junior is a valid argument) he is not trolling. He is simply stating his opinion which he has a right to do. 

 

You are being quite hypocritical in your arguments saying that we should not rag on Canuck prospects but then ragging on Baer and Vey yourself (I strongly dislike Very BTW.) 

 

You also aren't really giving any proof in you're arguments other than calling players "softies" and declaring them busts because of it. It is ridiculous to declare a 19yr old player a bust in general, let alone after putting up 8 points in 10 games (Ehlers), ppg in the AHL (nylander) or 7 points in 10 games (Larkin). Other than you're them being "softies" there is no evidence of them being busts. Quite the contrary actually. 

 

 

By you're logic Patrick Kane, Tyler Johnson, Johnny Gaudreau and Torey Krug should all be playing in Europe. One of them has a 3 Stanley cups and a conne smythe, 1 lead his team to the SCF and the other 2 were Calder trophy finalists. I feel like if you were posting on here at the time you also would have declared the Sedin's busts for being "softies."

 

 

The lack of proof and you're writing style suggest you are trying to troll moer than downuna, and you may be succeeding. You are drawing some inflammatory responses. 

 

you're argument is too good for me to compete with.  I am but a simple alien, still finding his furry way in this world of computers.   I will state one more time the obvious.  This is the Canucks board.  For a poster to come to this board and attack our prospects, and state (his opinion) that other teams prospects were better choices at the draft is easily interpreted as fishing.  I accept others opinions, as I do yours, even when they are clearly intended to antagonize Canuck's fans an a Canuck's board.  Why else would a poster continue to make such inflammatory comments on our Canuck's board?  Why not go and make those comments on the Wnnipeg or Toronto boards?  

[Delta76]

There are compelling arguments to be made for both keeping him up and sending him down to junior. 

The offence is not quite there yet for Jake when it comes to the pros but he is doing other things right. His physical presence if definitely felt, it pressures the other team into making mistakes and gives the team energy. He also hasn't been horrible defensively and has shown to be willing to block shots. One could argue that akin to Horvat he is just trying to play conservative hockey in order to make that team and that later on in the year he will ramp up the offence. 

The Canucks also have much more control over his diet, his training and his post game habits then they would if he was in junior. This could be beneficial as well. At the same time the coaches can constantly work with him on skill she needs to improve at. He will be playing behind two of the top 10 players in the league which could also go a long way to contributing to his offensive game. He will also begin to build chemistry with the future core of the team which he is a part of as mentioned above. 

One other thing that deserves to be mentioned is the fact that Virtanen is playing in his home town. He won't have to worry or adjust to living completely on his own because his family lives here. This will just make the transition to the NHL easier. 

 

On the other hand one could argue that how is Virtanen supposed to be a top line NHL player when he hasn't even been there in Junior. There was very minimal improvement in his draft +1 year and those saying that he has nothing left to learn in junior are wrong in my opinion. Jake could go back to junior and focus on his offensive game, really try to dominate the league offensively. He hasn't shown off his laser shot much in his time in the NHL and one could argue that he needs to go back to junior to regain his confidence in at as it was one of his biggest assets in his 40 goal year. 

The other fact is that even though the Hitmen have a very sub-par coaching staff, Calgary is very close to Vancouver and it is not impossible for Jim/trevor or an assistant coach to fly out and work with Virtanen when the schedule aligns if they really want to do that. 

 

I will be happy with either decision and trust management to make the right call as they have much more information than I do. 

 

[Delta76]

you're argument is too good for me to compete with.  I am but a simple alien, still finding his furry way in this world of computers.   I will state one more time the obvious.  This is the Canucks board.  For a poster to come to this board and attack our prospects, and state (his opinion) that other teams prospects were better choices at the draft is easily interpreted as fishing.  I accept others opinions, as I do yours, even when they are clearly intended to antagonize Canuck's fans an a Canuck's board.  Why else would a poster continue to make such inflammatory comments on our Canuck's board?  Why not go and make those comments on the Wnnipeg or Toronto boards?  

He is a Canucks fan. Why would he want to be on a Winnipeg or Toronto board? Just because it is a Canucks board doesn't mean that all Canucks have to be treated like gods. 

Someone saying that Shea Weber is better than Yannik Weber shouldn't be banished from our boards and sent to Nashville's, it's an observation.

Obviously this is an exaggeration but I think you would understand what I am saying. The proof as of right now shows that Ehlers is the better player. (I am not saying this is what I believe but the stats support downunda's argument.)

[Alflives]

The fact that this is a canucks board makes our prospects better than everyone else's is what way?

finally, a poster who gets it.  It's not that our prospects are any better or any worse.  It's the fact this is a Canuck's forum and coming here and posting certain prospects in our organization suck is one thing, but then saying we should have drafted other (equally as unproven) players instead is only going to elicit negative response.  Vey sucks and Baer sucks.  Okay, that's a fans opinion of his team's young players.  It's crossing the line to suggest Ehlers and Nylander (two similarly unproven players on other teams) are better. 

Thanks for understanding

[Alflives]

He is a Canucks fan. Why would he want to be on a Winnipeg or Toronto board? Just because it is a Canucks board doesn't mean that all Canucks have to be treated like gods. 

Someone saying that Shea Weber is better than Yannik Weber shouldn't be banished from our boards and sent to Nashville's, it's an observation.

Obviously this is an exaggeration but I think you would understand what I am saying. The proof as of right now shows that Ehlers is the better player. (I am not saying this is what I believe but the stats support downunda's argument.)

we need to include more than just points when evaluating players, especially ones with such different skill sets.  If I go to a Jets board and state that Virtanen is the better player because he has 20 more hits, and caused 11 more turn overs than Ehlers I think the negative responses would be expected.  Vey, a similar player to Ehlers, had a lot of points in the early part of last season, and now he's back in the minors, so I expect Ehlers will follow soon enough.  That too is a comparable.  How can it be trolling when a poster is defending his team's players on his team's board?  

[Delta76]

 

I wasn't calling you out on being a troll, although you're posts can be irritating at times I don't believe you are trolling. 

Although hits are good, it is easier to find players that are willing to hit lots that those that score lots. Michael Ferland was a 5th round pick with high hit totals. High energy hitting players come a dime a dozen, players that put up points like Ehlers is right now are harder to come by. If Virtanen was taken later in the draft people would be stoked. Some people are just hoping for a little more from Virtanen right now. 

Vey could be a comparable although he was playing on the PP with the Sedins, something that allows a lot of players to rack up points they don't deserve. 

[Alflives]

I wasn't calling you out on being a troll, although you're posts can be irritating at times I don't believe you are trolling. 

Although hits are good, it is easier to find players that are willing to hit lots that those that score lots. Michael Ferland was a 5th round pick with high hit totals. High energy hitting players come a dime a dozen, players that put up points like Ehlers is right now are harder to come by. If Virtanen was taken later in the draft people would be stoked. Some people are just hoping for a little more from Virtanen right now. 

Vey could be a comparable although he was playing on the PP with the Sedins, something that allows a lot of players to rack up points they don't deserve. 

I accept that.  

[Delta76]

I accept that.  

Cheers. (Although i'm not sure what you aliens drink )

[JamesB]

There are compelling arguments to be made for both keeping him up and sending him down to junior. 

The offence is not quite there yet for Jake when it comes to the pros but he is doing other things right. His physical presence if definitely felt, it pressures the other team into making mistakes and gives the team energy. He also hasn't been horrible defensively and has shown to be willing to block shots. One could argue that akin to Horvat he is just trying to play conservative hockey in order to make that team and that later on in the year he will ramp up the offence. 

The Canucks also have much more control over his diet, his training and his post game habits then they would if he was in junior. This could be beneficial as well. At the same time the coaches can constantly work with him on skill she needs to improve at. He will be playing behind two of the top 10 players in the league which could also go a long way to contributing to his offensive game. He will also begin to build chemistry with the future core of the team which he is a part of as mentioned above. 

One other thing that deserves to be mentioned is the fact that Virtanen is playing in his home town. He won't have to worry or adjust to living completely on his own because his family lives here. This will just make the transition to the NHL easier. 

 

On the other hand one could argue that how is Virtanen supposed to be a top line NHL player when he hasn't even been there in Junior. There was very minimal improvement in his draft +1 year and those saying that he has nothing left to learn in junior are wrong in my opinion. Jake could go back to junior and focus on his offensive game, really try to dominate the league offensively. He hasn't shown off his laser shot much in his time in the NHL and one could argue that he needs to go back to junior to regain his confidence in at as it was one of his biggest assets in his 40 goal year. 

The other fact is that even though the Hitmen have a very sub-par coaching staff, Calgary is very close to Vancouver and it is not impossible for Jim/trevor or an assistant coach to fly out and work with Virtanen when the schedule aligns if they really want to do that. 

 

I will be happy with either decision and trust management to make the right call as they have much more information than I do. 

 

I have pretty much the same read on the situation and would add one more thing. If the Canucks keep Jake they lose a year off his entry level contract and (if he plays 40 games) he hit free agency a year sooner. So if the Canucks keep him now they gain a year of Virtanen as a bottom 6 banger and they lose an RFA year of him in his prime, when we hope he is top 6 power forward. Maybe he stays as a UFA but to win a team needs high quality players at modest salaries -- good players on entry level and RFA contracts. .

[guntrix]

You need big skilled players like VIrtanen to make room for smaller guys, we were in no position to draft Ehlers because who would support him? Winnipeg however is a big, heavy team which creates room for the smaller guys

This is the biggest misconception around these boards. 

Elite skill is elite skill and we're not the small, fragile team we used to be anymore.

In the line-up, we have Prust, Dorsett, Sbisa, Sutter, and Edler... all guys who are not afraid to throw the body.

Also, only Weber and Baertschi are under 6 feet.

So please stop using the "we don't have room for that kind of player" argument anymore. Benning has made sure that we're not physically pushed around anymore.

[WHL rocks]

I have pretty much the same read on the situation and would add one more thing. If the Canucks keep Jake they lose a year off his entry level contract and (if he plays 40 games) he hit free agency a year sooner. So if the Canucks keep him now they gain a year of Virtanen as a bottom 6 banger and they lose an RFA year of him in his prime, when we hope he is top 6 power forward. Maybe he stays as a UFA but to win a team needs high quality players at modest salaries -- good players on entry level and RFA contracts. .

I believe it's 40 games on the roster vs playing 40 games.

So if Virt is on the NHL roster for Canucks playing 40 games this year he burns a year of his UFA eligibility no matter how many games Virt him self plays. 

In any event it's best to send him to Juniors at 9 games and save a year on his ELC. He's not ready yet. 

[CanucksJay]

Is there anyway to justify keeping Virtanen up over Gaunce, Cracknell and Baerstchi?

Cracknell and Baerstchi would be subject to waivers and guaranteed to be taken.

Gaunce on the other hand should have made the team out of camp but was sent down because he was waiver exempt but he showed once again as soon as he got called up that he deserves to stay here.

If Virtanen stays, whose job does he take?

I want him to stay up but its a numbers game and it really is not fair to another young guy like Gaunce who should be up here. I can see Virtanen staying up due to injuries and then Benning making a trade to free up some space for him. Personally, I think every forward has outplayed him but for some reason, I feel like he has the potential to turn it around and make great strides this year if he stays with the club. (But hey, thats for management to decide and thats why they get paid the big bucks)

When the team is healthy,

Sedin Sedin Vrbata

Higgins Sutter Burrows

Gaunce Horvat Hansen

Dorsett McCaan Prust 

Baerstchi

Cracknell

Virtanen

 

Man...there is just no room

Barring another long term injury or trade, I think Virtanen gets sent down as there really is no other option. He hasn't outplayed anybody listed above.

Edited November 1, 2015 by CanucksJay

[Edlerberry]

arent you being a little bit harsh?? we finally draft a hometown kid destined to be a fan favourite who hits like a train at 19 years old, a lower mainland born and bred power forward who is so young he is still eligible for jr and you call him a waste of a 6th overall pick....

 

 

 

not to mention you put all that thought into typing an essay about it... you are delusional, i hope you turn into the modern day clutch and eat your words when he finally breaks out.

 

I do think he should go back to junior though, but to call the kid a bust already is just mind blowing lol

He does this all the time, and admittedly doesn't watch the games to boot. He takes his uninformed opinion and combines it with incorrect assumptions and then builds these 1500 word sermons that offer nothing of substance. Flowery language and a block of text doesn't change the fact this stat-line and nil.com highlight warrior knows jack.

[Cowardrobertford]

This is the biggest misconception around these boards. 

Elite skill is elite skill and we're not the small, fragile team we used to be anymore.

In the line-up, we have Prust, Dorsett, Sbisa, Sutter, and Edler... all guys who are not afraid to throw the body.

Also, only Weber and Baertschi are under 6 feet.

So please stop using the "we don't have room for that kind of player" argument anymore. Benning has made sure that we're not physically pushed around anymore.

jared mccan scoring a few goals with dorsett and prust. Yeah I can relate. We need elite skill to do something with the puck retrieved by our hardworking boys, hansen, Higgins,burrows,Sutter and the other two mentioned above

[Vicky]

And the boys are staying!

https://twitter.com/vancanucks/status/660880627344928768

Edited November 1, 2015 by Vicky

[Ossi Vaananen]

Yep, and hopefully this monstrosity of a thread will die off as well.