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Jake Virtanen Talk

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5 minutes ago, Derp... said:

I want to chime in on the whole sports IQ thing as well. Also played sports in college, and I think there are a few other factors that contribute to perceived sports iq in game.

1. Mental preparation (Focus): There's usually a big performance difference for players who are mentally ready for a game versus when they are not. This is often referred to as consistency by most players coaches.

 

2. Coaches Orders (Coachability): What is the coach telling the player to do? This has a huge factor in most sports at higher levels. A lot of creativity can be coached out of the game. Many players are told they need to do something in order to succeed and will do that regardless of if it's working because that's what their coach and teammates are asking them/expecting them to do. (You don't want to be the guy who tries to do something that everyone's going to complain about later, or have to run/skate in practise) Quick example is the dump in versus taking on 1 or 2 guys at the blueline, some coaches will want 1 oway and others the opposite.

3. Perception/Reaction (Sports IQ): Every time you go up a level in sports the game gets mentally faster, even if you are physically fast, you need to process information faster and react faster. These types of skills take different times to develop for different players. The biggest difference is when you watch someone play with their head up all the time versus up and down. Another sign is looking around you before you get the puck, ball, etc to know what you will do with it next. The faster you can analyze a situation and make a decision as to what you will do the "Slower" the game becomes and the higher your "IQ" looks on the ice/field/court.

When we look at these 3 parts of the mental side of the game I think we can say this about Jakes game so far.

For #1 We have real development since last year. Being outside of Van, and making less dough, has probably allowed Jake to take his mental preparation more seriously. This along with coaching on how to do this has seen Jake improve his consistency over the last 15 games or so.

For #2 Jake is listening and learning from his coaches. I think he was doing this last year and this year about the same, but probably had less structure requirements in the WHL which gave him some bad habits for the pro game.

For #3 When Jake has time he makes the right play more often than not. He understands how to succeed in a lot of situation. The area that he needs to improve on is his decisions at full speed. He can't always go by guys on the outside. He needs to learn to go by them on the inside when they overplay him there. Horvat is very good at this with his drag move. That move has allowed him to take guys wide this year, because they have to respect his ability to cut inside. This is a case of getting his head up and skating at full speed with the puck on a string. If he can do that you will see a dramatic change in his ability to get to the net in my opinion. In order to develop this he needs experience, coaching and practise. There a ton of little tricks and indicators that allow players to see what their opponents will do just as/before it happens. In order to see those you need to have your head up and not be too focused on the puck in this case. If you go back and watch Horvat in his rookie year he also had trouble with this. It's something that just clicks after some experience. 

 

As he gains experience and confidence, the game will slow down for him and making those plays will be much easier.

 

Great post btw

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8 minutes ago, stawns said:

As he gains experience and confidence, the game will slow down for him and making those plays will be much easier.

 

Great post btw

Thanks, yup I have confidence in him taking another step. I do think we should wait until he starts to make those plays in the AHL if possible, before bringing him up. I think Boeser won't have as tough a time with this because he never had the straight line speed that Jake had in junior. That along with his NCAA experience would have forced him to read the game more. We should allow Jake to develop the mental side of the game as much as possible before deciding on his value.  

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Posted (edited)

31 minutes ago, Derp... said:

I want to chime in on the whole sports IQ thing as well. Also played sports in college, and I think there are a few other factors that contribute to perceived sports iq in game.

1. Mental preparation (Focus): There's usually a big performance difference for players who are mentally ready for a game versus when they are not. This is often referred to as consistency by most players coaches.

 

2. Coaches Orders (Coachability): What is the coach telling the player to do? This has a huge factor in most sports at higher levels. A lot of creativity can be coached out of the game. Many players are told they need to do something in order to succeed and will do that regardless of if it's working because that's what their coach and teammates are asking them/expecting them to do. (You don't want to be the guy who tries to do something that everyone's going to complain about later, or have to run/skate in practise) Quick example is the dump in versus taking on 1 or 2 guys at the blueline, some coaches will want 1 oway and others the opposite.

3. Perception/Reaction (Sports IQ): Every time you go up a level in sports the game gets mentally faster, even if you are physically fast, you need to process information faster and react faster. These types of skills take different times to develop for different players. The biggest difference is when you watch someone play with their head up all the time versus up and down. Another sign is looking around you before you get the puck, ball, etc to know what you will do with it next. The faster you can analyze a situation and make a decision as to what you will do the "Slower" the game becomes and the higher your "IQ" looks on the ice/field/court.

When we look at these 3 parts of the mental side of the game I think we can say this about Jakes game so far.

For #1 We have real development since last year. Being outside of Van, and making less dough, has probably allowed Jake to take his mental preparation more seriously. This along with coaching on how to do this has seen Jake improve his consistency over the last 15 games or so.

For #2 Jake is listening and learning from his coaches. I think he was doing this last year and this year about the same, but probably had less structure requirements in the WHL which gave him some bad habits for the pro game.

For #3 When Jake has time he makes the right play more often than not. He understands how to succeed in a lot of situation. The area that he needs to improve on is his decisions at full speed. He can't always go by guys on the outside. He needs to learn to go by them on the inside when they overplay him there. Horvat is very good at this with his drag move. That move has allowed him to take guys wide this year, because they have to respect his ability to cut inside. This is a case of getting his head up and skating at full speed with the puck on a string. If he can do that you will see a dramatic change in his ability to get to the net in my opinion. In order to develop this he needs experience, coaching and practise. There a ton of little tricks and indicators that allow players to see what their opponents will do just as/before it happens. In order to see those you need to have your head up and not be too focused on the puck in this case. If you go back and watch Horvat in his rookie year he also had trouble with this. It's something that just clicks after some experience. 

 

Yes well said and alot of this is why they say it takes players time to 'learn the pro game'


Coaches want players to make certain decisions in certain situations not only for the system, but often because it drills in those quicker decisions - 'repetition is the mother of skill' as they say

 

Once a player starts 'listening to their coaches' and making the 'right decisions, often that lack of time they have at the next level, starts being 'more time' because its 'reactionary'

 

Knowing when to dump vs when not can give a player like jake more time and space as well vs a turnover and chasing when/if a player makes a wrong decision

 

Very well thought out post and very accurate - time will tell how he adjusts but I think he will develop fine if he matures and gains some focus, which hopefully being in Utica is creating for him.

Edited by BoDangles53
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"He's got a great attitude, he doesn't seem down. He's handling it well from what I've seen." - Ben Birnell (Utica Comets reporter) on Virtanen

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7 hours ago, BoDangles53 said:

Yes well said and alot of this is why they say it takes players time to 'learn the pro game'


Coaches want players to make certain decisions in certain situations not only for the system, but often because it drills in those quicker decisions - 'repetition is the mother of skill' as they say

 

Once a player starts 'listening to their coaches' and making the 'right decisions, often that lack of time they have at the next level, starts being 'more time' because its 'reactionary'

 

Knowing when to dump vs when not can give a player like jake more time and space as well vs a turnover and chasing when/if a player makes a wrong decision

 

Very well thought out post and very accurate - time will tell how he adjusts but I think he will develop fine if he matures and gains some focus, which hopefully being in Utica is creating for him.

i think he is already maturing in Utica as a result of his recent play. he's gotten better there is no question about that since the start of the season. here's to hoping he becomes even better next season especially on his offensive aspect of the game. like so many posters have said prior, this off season is an extremely important one for Jake, his development and his future. 

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5 hours ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

"He's got a great attitude, he doesn't seem down. He's handling it well from what I've seen." - Ben Birnell (Utica Comets reporter) on Virtanen

excellent news! 

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8 hours ago, BoDangles53 said:

Why are you putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting my comments?

 

I said the following

 

I simply said "any winger" playing on their offwing is more defensively challenged and therefore unless you're a game breaker like Pavel Bure, coaches won't turn a blind eye to that - I didn't say Jake was bad defensively at all, in fact I said the contrary and that his advanced stats proved it. Simply, his issue was fitness and taking short shifts to offset that.

 

Try reading people's posts and don't make up comments that suggest you have support.

I apologize for making it sound like I was assuming you agreed with what I said. I just wanted to use your point as a connection to what mine was. Did not mean to associate you with my views.

 

I'm a big fan of analytics, believe me, but you need to pass both the quantitative tests and qualitative tests. I've watched probably a dozen comets games since Jan, and he's not a defensively minded player. He constantly glides and does fly byes when he contests the point. He gets puck watching fair too often and sometimes he doesn't open up well enough to be an option on a breakout. He's very very good at rushing the puck out once he's collected a few strides and takes a look up ice because of his separation speed. But he doesn't have great instincts to read plays. I think that's my favourite way to describe him, is that his instincts aren't great.

 

Let me be clear, I've had my differences with Jake over the past couple years, but that doesn't mean I'm not cheering for the kid. I want nothing more for him to be up with us in the Vancouver lineup next year and for him to make an impact. Just going to give my honest opinion and if you disagree with me then debate, don't hate.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, junglesniper said:

I apologize for making it sound like I was assuming you agreed with what I said. I just wanted to use your point as a connection to what mine was. Did not mean to associate you with my views.

 

I'm a big fan of analytics, believe me, but you need to pass both the quantitative tests and qualitative tests. I've watched probably a dozen comets games since Jan, and he's not a defensively minded player. He constantly glides and does fly byes when he contests the point. He gets puck watching fair too often and sometimes he doesn't open up well enough to be an option on a breakout. He's very very good at rushing the puck out once he's collected a few strides and takes a look up ice because of his separation speed. But he doesn't have great instincts to read plays. I think that's my favourite way to describe him, is that his instincts aren't great.

 

Let me be clear, I've had my differences with Jake over the past couple years, but that doesn't mean I'm not cheering for the kid. I want nothing more for him to be up with us in the Vancouver lineup next year and for him to make an impact. Just going to give my honest opinion and if you disagree with me then debate, don't hate.

fair enough but that's also a part of learning - in the NHL his defensive advanced stats were excellent so his cautious focused defensive play is clearly there if he 'wants' to focus on it. issue is with more ice time and trying to learn alot he's clearly cheating at times etc

 

This is why he's in the AHL to put it all together. Its quite common for offensive players to lose some offense when trying to learn to play defense properly, and counter, when they start playing their 'game' lose some of the defensive focus


Why he's in the AHL is to learn to put those 2 things together before he makes it to the NHL. So while you may suggest he can't play defense very well I disagree because both the quantitative and eye test at the NHL level showed it, issue for him is to move beyond a sole defensive focus and cautious play and to be able to bring ALL of his tools at once. I know this issue first hand, as I played at a very competitive level (US College Tier 1 school) and was an offensive player coming in. When I was shifted down from 1c to 2c my game had to change from cheating and pure offense to more of  200ft game.

 

I will tell you this, defensive hockey is not hard to 'learn' it really is 98% effort (as it is in most sports).  And when I had games where I knew I had to play a tougher Dgame my offense suffered. When I was able to free wheel and cheat my offense thrived.  That being said, separately, I was damn good at both, but putting it all together, shift after shift was not only physically very hard (so that could be affecting him) but also mentally, to stay focused, patient, and tough on the puck in both ends, especially when you were tiring. I think your views are overly simplistic to be honest. Its actually why I respect and love watching players like Toews, Kelser, Burrows, Hansen - what they do is outwork everyone on the ice and probably off the ice as fitness is a big part of playing 200ft. We know that was an issue for Jake but is improving. Fly bys are common when out of shape - stops and starts are the hard work of hockey, when you stop and start it tires you, all he's doing is cheating defensively because of his fitness in my view, not because he can't play defense well. That will be corrected in time

 

You see an inabilty to put the two things together at once as not having one of those skills, I have seen the skill, the stats prove it, so I see an issue of being mentally prepared, engaged shift to shift and focused enough and likely fit enough to play a 200 ft game. That's where the name 200ft game actually comes from 

Edited by BoDangles53
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Looks like Green is doing a good job turning Jake into a 2 way Beast. Hopefully he can lead the comets into the playoffs and get more experience. I wouldn't mind seeing Goldobin sent down for the playoffs once the nucks are done. 

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8 minutes ago, messier's_elbow said:

Looks like Green is doing a good job turning Jake into a 2 way Beast. Hopefully he can lead the comets into the playoffs and get more experience. I wouldn't mind seeing Goldobin sent down for the playoffs once the nucks are done. 

Gaunce and labate as well.  A whole line sent down to help would be great.  Sooner the better

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1 hour ago, stawns said:

Gaunce and labate as well.  A whole line sent down to help would be great.  Sooner the better

Totally agree. LaBate-Gaunce-Goldy sent down asap. Critical that Utica makes Calder playoffs. More to be gained from a long playoff run than playing out the last 10 games in Van.

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1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

Totally agree. LaBate-Gaunce-Goldy sent down asap. Critical that Utica makes Calder playoffs. More to be gained from a long playoff run than playing out the last 10 games in Van.

Totally agree with that except for Goldy. He needs time in the NHL. Hopefully Boeser goes to Utica. I think Playoffs for him down there would be good instead of serving his head on a platter to Canucks fans the rest of the year.

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Just now, RetroCanuck said:

Totally agree with that except for Goldy. He needs time in the NHL. Hopefully Boeser goes to Utica. I think Playoffs for him down there would be good instead of serving his head on a platter to Canucks fans the rest of the year.

Why does he need time in the NHL?  Is rather he be playing in meaningful games with a high intensity level rather than just playing out the season with no motivation.  Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.

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3 minutes ago, stawns said:

Why does he need time in the NHL?  Is rather he be playing in meaningful games with a high intensity level rather than just playing out the season with no motivation.  Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.

Hes proven he can be a very good AHL player. He needs time in the NHL to adapt to the game up here and take the next step. You can have a great AHL player with experience down there but if he can't or doesn't get the chance to make it in the NHL then hell be an AHL player. And I bet you anything, Goldy see's these games in the NHL as important for him and that will motivate him. He needs a chance to show he can play up here not the A.

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8 minutes ago, RetroCanuck said:

Hes proven he can be a very good AHL player. He needs time in the NHL to adapt to the game up here and take the next step. You can have a great AHL player with experience down there but if he can't or doesn't get the chance to make it in the NHL then hell be an AHL player. And I bet you anything, Goldy see's these games in the NHL as important for him and that will motivate him. He needs a chance to show he can play up here not the A.

I don't see it that way.  I see high intensity playoff games as much better for him than floating around the ice, running the clock until the end of season.  In Utica, he'll be meeting and getting to know guys he will be playing with for the next 6-7 years, and helping the team get to the post season.  I can't believe anyone wouldn't want that for his development.

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I was off of CDC for the last couple of days. 

 

Wow the last 15 pages were quite a roller coaster. 

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1 hour ago, stawns said:

I don't see it that way.  I see high intensity playoff games as much better for him than floating around the ice, running the clock until the end of season.  In Utica, he'll be meeting and getting to know guys he will be playing with for the next 6-7 years, and helping the team get to the post season.  I can't believe anyone wouldn't want that for his development.

Well we obviously have different stances. I think playing with his future line mates in Bo, Sven, Sutter etc in a better league, is better then playing with fringe NHLers. Different opinions and Ill guess we'll see what happens and what management thinks is best.

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50 minutes ago, RetroCanuck said:

Well we obviously have different stances. I think playing with his future line mates in Bo, Sven, Sutter etc in a better league, is better then playing with fringe NHLers. Different opinions and Ill guess we'll see what happens and what management thinks is best.

Canucks are done in 10 games. Goldy-Gaunce and LaBate go back down to Utica and helps them make the Calder playoffs. That gives them at least 28 more games. I see your point about playing with the existing Canuck roster but IMHO the better return is in Utica.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, RetroCanuck said:

Well we obviously have different stances. I think playing with his future line mates in Bo, Sven, Sutter etc in a better league, is better then playing with fringe NHLers. Different opinions and Ill guess we'll see what happens and what management thinks is best.

I agree, I think Goldie has proved that he doesn't have much left to learn at the AHL level. I expect he will stay with the big club until the end of the season, then if the Comets are still playing, he will join them.

Edited by WeneedLumme
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Best thing right now for Virtanen is to play meaningful games in the AHL with a coach that knows how to grow players in Travis Green and avoid being a part of the rest of the season with the Canucks which will be painful for everyone involved as they lose game after game down the stretch.

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